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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Oh, and then there's that. So far, David is my favourite guy on the Development team ever since BABs stopped posting. Rock on, dude!
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yeah, where IS BaBs? It's a little worrying that the big guy's just upped and vanished >_>
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Also: Davi... err, Noble Savage is awesome.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Totally ignoring the fact that he came right out and said that a menu overhaul would take away 50% of the man hours that could be spent overhauling old textures. My opinion is not more valid than any other, clearly you seem to think yours is. My point is, the majority (by a 2 to 1 margin the last I looked) wanted option 1. Noble Savage himself supported option 1. So instead we bow to the minority, what sense does that make? Clearly my opinion was shared by around 66%, apparently OUR opinions are completely invalid. Get off your high horse.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, totally ignoring the fact that an Option 3, i.e. a menu overhaul which is much needed, is now being considered.
Clearly your opinion is more valid than other peoples. |
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To quote Robin Williams in Awakenings, "I would agree with you if you were right." It was indeed an open and honest objective platform, much preferred to the "take it or leave it" attitude that seems to bring things like the Party Pack. However, the discussion clearly supported option 1 by a 2 to 1 margin. It wasn't for show. The majority supported his original intention, yet that gets ignored. We now will either not get as many retextures as we could have, or it will take a great deal longer since they will waste 50% of that time with the menu.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
What would be the point of him asking if his mind was already made up? I, for one, am glad that they took a 'for show' situation and turned into what it should have been in the first place; an open, honest and objective platform for player input (unlike what happened with the Party Pack). Otherwise, do what you need to do and approach the players in a "this is what we're gonna do-no questions asked" fashion. IMO
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Last I checked, a 2 to 1 "majority" is not terribly significant, especially when a fair number of people stand to be pretty pissed off, as I've seen in the past. In fact, David is demonstrating tremendous presence of mind in recognising the problem and subsequently looking for an alternate solution.|
Originally Posted by Knightfox
Totally ignoring the fact that he came right out and said that a menu overhaul would take away 50% of the man hours that could be spent overhauling old textures. My opinion is not more valid than any other, clearly you seem to think yours is. My point is, the majority (by a 2 to 1 margin the last I looked) wanted option 1. Noble Savage himself supported option 1. So instead we bow to the minority, what sense does that make? Clearly my opinion was shared by around 66%, apparently OUR opinions are completely invalid. Get off your high horse.
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Furthermore, the character customization UI is and has always been in need of a serious update. The smart thing to do is to enact this update before clutter and inefficiency becomes a serious problem. This needs to be done. The sooner it is done, the better.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think a simple majority vote is what's called for in a situation like this - if given the choice between options 1 and 2, the majority on this forum clearly prefers 1. However, pointing out a third way and giving a good argument for it should clearly override the majority in a case like this - players are not game designers, and much of the time they don't know what they want until they get it (or get something else). A well reasoned argument should outweigh a majority vote here.|
Originally Posted by Knightfox
To quote Robin Williams in Awakenings, "I would agree with you if you were right." It was indeed an open and honest objective platform, much preferred to the "take it or leave it" attitude that seems to bring things like the Party Pack. However, the discussion clearly supported option 1 by a 2 to 1 margin. It wasn't for show. The majority supported his original intention, yet that gets ignored. We now will either not get as many retextures as we could have, or it will take a great deal longer since they will waste 50% of that time with the menu.
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The third way here makes a lot of sense, given that the menus need to be reorganized in any case - even if we were never given another costume piece. Given that such work likely needs to be done anyway, it seems probable that adding legacy pieces into their own menu would be a relatively small task in comparison.
I'm also surprised about the 50% fewer claim, since I wouldn't think that the people in charge of reorganizing the menus would be the same people that would create new costumes.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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It's not objective when the poll creator states his option preference in the opening statements and then defends that preference (over the other option) throughout the rest of the discussion.|
Originally Posted by Knightfox
To quote Robin Williams in Awakenings, "I would agree with you if you were right." It was indeed an open and honest objective platform, much preferred to the "take it or leave it" attitude that seems to bring things like the Party Pack. However, the discussion clearly supported option 1 by a 2 to 1 margin. It wasn't for show. The majority supported his original intention, yet that gets ignored. We now will either not get as many retextures as we could have, or it will take a great deal longer since they will waste 50% of that time with the menu.
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We will still get retextures and costume pieces (we always do); and a new menu remains to be seen... he even stated, essentially, that its not a definite thing... just something that will be looked into.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Thank you, David. Not just because of your decision and stuff, but everything you've done with Paragon Studios and in posting and talking with us. It's what makes this game even greater
I can't wait to see what you crank out!
Knightfox, a simple majority is not all that someone looks for in such a situation, as has been mentioned by others.
Informal polls aren't just about, "okay, vote away and we'll see the outcome". With products such as this game, you have to take care of different portions of the greatly varied playerbase.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Just about everyone, voting Option 1 or 2, stated in one form or another that they wanted a revamp of the menu/editor either instead or in addition to whatever changes the individual pieces get. Instead of breaking David's balls for "caving in to the minority" you should thank him for listening to EVERYONE and reconsidering the need to spend time reworking the costume editor.|
Originally Posted by Knightfox
Totally ignoring the fact that he came right out and said that a menu overhaul would take away 50% of the man hours that could be spent overhauling old textures. My opinion is not more valid than any other, clearly you seem to think yours is. My point is, the majority (by a 2 to 1 margin the last I looked) wanted option 1. Noble Savage himself supported option 1. So instead we bow to the minority, what sense does that make? Clearly my opinion was shared by around 66%, apparently OUR opinions are completely invalid. Get off your high horse.
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If he were dead set on doing something, he never would have asked us for an opinion. Asking with the intention of never listening has been done in the past, with poor results.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
Looks like a lesson was learned. I'm glad that option 1 and option 2 were no win situations. You were always going to end up making someone unhappy. based on the numbers someone added up a few pages ago and extrapolating to the whole population any where from 1/4 to 3/4 of the population was going to be upset. Now hopefully an all round desireable solution is found. Afterall he didn't promise anything.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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Thank you so much!
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
And don't worry, Option 2 folks--nothing will be removed from the system.
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This seems like the best possible outcome. I hope, at very least, this means more assets will be directed toward revamping the costume editor and future-proofing it because it needs serious work.
As for the effect this will have on the overall 'look' of the game, I doubt most players will use those legacy options anyway. Now, I don't think that means the devs should always cater to the minority as long as it makes up a sizeable percentage, but in this situation the solution satisfies just about everyone all the same (except maybe the programmers that have to work on the UI).
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Excellent call, David. |
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, guys. Just wanted to thank everyone for casting a vote and for helping us get a better picture of what the playerbase is thinking. Here's my takeaway from reading the 22+ pages of thoughts on the topic: Arguments on both sides were compelling to the point where a third option, perhaps involving the menu setup, seems like the best way to satisfy all parties. This is NOT a promise of future action, but it's the view I'll express on your behalf.
So yay--everyone wins. We'll make every effort to create new pieces that give you all better options in areas that might be lacking. And don't worry, Option 2 folks--nothing will be removed from the system. If anyone would like to comment further about specific costume pieces, please don't hesitate to post in the All Things Art thread. Cheers, Noble Savage |
Much appreciated.
Noble Savage, you're the art director and I realize you don't want to piss any players off, but you're right with your gut instinct. From an artistic and consistency point of view, you need to replace all the current old costume pieces (hair in particular) with at the very least new skins. The old pieces are really clashing with the new at this point and I'm find that I am no longer using the old pieces at all in almost every one of my characters because they look so bad.
Hair, helmets, half helmets, full helmets, full masks, medieval helmets, supernatural faces; these are all in dire need of an update. I'm sure that if all you're going to do is update the textures and make the pieces better you'll have very few complaints. People would have to be insane to leave this game over a graphical improvement and I doubt those that threaten over this would.
If you noticed, the posts are split nearly fifty-fifty on the matter. You're the art director, do what you think is right.
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You fail at counting.
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Originally Posted by Invisobill
If you noticed, the posts are split nearly fifty-fifty on the matter. You're the art director, do what you think is right.
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And now he's specifically asked for feedback and seems aware of the concerns. The existence of this thread would seem to indicate that he doesn't want that to happen again.|
Originally Posted by MrMountie
Because that's totally what happened with the shinies in Ultra Mode. They didn't change any pieces that people were attached to, and blithely rubber-stamp it through QA. They made the responsible decision of keeping both options for things like the Metallic skin, the Vanguard and Valkyrie costume models.
. . . . Ya follow me? |
Your sarcasm is duly noted, though, and I'm sure you thought it was a constructive way to phrase your comments.
Ya follow me?
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Honestly, clutter is my chief objection to option 2. The costume creator's greatest strength has become its greatest weakness as well; there's too much junk in those drop-down menus. The old textures are ugly and I question why it's so important to keep them, but it's not like people will magically stop making hideous costumes if all we have are shiny new textures.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Last I checked, a 2 to 1 "majority" is not terribly significant, especially when a fair number of people stand to be pretty pissed off, as I've seen in the past. In fact, David is demonstrating tremendous presence of mind in recognising the problem and subsequently looking for an alternate solution.
Furthermore, the character customization UI is and has always been in need of a serious update. The smart thing to do is to enact this update before clutter and inefficiency becomes a serious problem. This needs to be done. The sooner it is done, the better. |
Y'know, the editor needs another UI overhaul anyway to accomodate power pool customization. Why not kill two birds with one stone, if you have to get a programmer to look at it?
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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Trina the Seamstress was proof enough of that. |
Originally Posted by Monkey_King
The old textures are ugly and I question why it's so important to keep them, but it's not like people will magically stop making hideous costumes if all we have are shiny new textures.
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Others have commented and hopefully David will clarify but I believe what he meant when he said that nothing will be removed is that even if they go forward with Option 1 existing character costumes will be unaffected -- unless the player changes the costume, in which case only the newer version of the piece would be available in the editor.|
Originally Posted by Knightfox
So what was even the point of asking if you're just going to go against your original idea and cave in to the minority? "How dare you make my character look better!" I think having outdated textures sitting next to the new upgraded ones is just going to bloat the menu ridiculously.
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Kind of like how some characters still have the Malaise pants. They won't ever lose them, unless they, uh, change their pants.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBlPyWIjBFs
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Originally Posted by Creole Ned
Kind of like how some characters still have the Malaise pants. They won't ever lose them, unless they, uh, change their pants.
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@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters
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Right. As newer, better options come online, I imagine that almost everyone will choose them naturally. And it's not about majority or minority--the development need, as I see it, is to get the old stuff out of the picture and to focus players around a core set of aesthetically-consistent, high-quality pieces. If we can do that without collateral damage, that sounds like a winning plan to me. |
Originally Posted by Optinator
As for the effect this will have on the overall 'look' of the game, I doubt most players will use those legacy options anyway. Now, I don't think that means the devs should always cater to the minority as long as it makes up a sizeable percentage, but in this situation the solution satisfies just about everyone all the same (except maybe the programmers that have to work on the UI).
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If it was just about me, I'd go for Option 1 because I'm really excited about the newest, coolest stuff (no surprise there!). But I'm not the only guy playing this game. I want each and every one of you to have an awesome experience on your own terms, so ultimately I'll cast my vote with everyone's interests in mind.
David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/
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Heehee... I cannot bold that note enough! Great point, honestly. If they choose to handle the Pool/Epics Customization through the Costume Eidotr (Which, I imagine they will), let's doo eet!! |
Originally Posted by Monkey_King
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Y'know, the editor needs another UI overhaul anyway to accomodate power pool customization. Why not kill two birds with one stone, if you have to get a programmer to look at it? |
Thanks again, NS!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Can you post some teasers?|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Right. As newer, better options come online, I imagine that almost everyone will choose them naturally. And it's not about majority or minority--the development need, as I see it, is to get the old stuff out of the picture and to focus players around a core set of aesthetically-consistent, high-quality pieces. If we can do that without collateral damage, that sounds like a winning plan to me.
If it was just about me, I'd go for Option 1 because I'm really excited about the newest, coolest stuff (no surprise there!). But I'm not the only guy playing this game. I want each and every one of you to have an awesome experience on your own terms, so ultimately I'll cast my vote with everyone's interests in mind. |
I think that would help sway people to option 1.
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I hope you print this out and keep it up one one of your office's walls, David.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
But I'm not the only guy playing this game. I want each and every one of you to have an awesome experience on your own terms, so ultimately I'll cast my vote with everyone's interests in mind.
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While improving the overall look of CoX is important, making sure everyone can have an enjoyable experience playing is just as important. I know this might be a rough balancing act for you, but ultimately we know you're trying to do what's best for the players and the game. Just try to keep what's quoted above in mind, and I think you'll do just fine.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
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Im 100% with you.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
If it was just about me, I'd go for Option 1 because I'm really excited about the newest, coolest stuff (no surprise there!). But I'm not the only guy playing this game. I want each and every one of you to have an awesome experience on your own terms, so ultimately I'll cast my vote with everyone's interests in mind.
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Cant understand why some players wanna be stuck in the past with low def and plain texture pieces... But, anyway you doing it well since you listening to all of us. Everyone have a voice in this playerbase.
Any chance this updates come with I19 or soon?
Given that you are updating the graphic level, not trying to re-style from a Golden Age to a Modern look or anything like that, then absolutely I favour Option 1.