Option 1. The old assets drastically need updating, and the notion of retaining them adds way too much clutter.
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I actually have to agree that more isn't always better. When I have to scour a huge list of options and yet only ever really respec, like, one or two, that's not more options. That's just more clutter. Some of the old options are just embarrassingly bed, even by the standards of 2001.|
Originally Posted by Commander
I know players that sit by and cry "More is better! More options is always better!" Well, it's not. If you are someone that uses any of the newer costume pieces, you can plainly see that 80% of the older files look horrible when used in conjunction. Why take a step backwards and make the newer pieces compatible with the older pieces? You're only making your characters look less than "super" when compared to the scenery (and upcoming scenery changes.)
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An example? Faces. The old faces are just terrible. Sure, I use a few here and there, but MY GOD are they bad. Horribly low-res textures, very low-poly meshes... It was actually eye-opening one day when I was tabbing through the old faces when I came up to the Organic Armour face. I went from something that's blurry and unclear and obviously ye olde low-res and into Organic Armour, which had incredibly sharp lines, amazingly high-resolution texturing and really did look like a face that came out of a completely different game. A much better game. Sure, I don't like the actual face, but THIS is the level of quality the entire game should supply. This is what would make City of Heroes stand out as a game which belonged in this day and age.
I love City of Heroes to death, believe me. But even I don't want to see the old Quake 2 level costume pieces retained in the editor. They're just an embarrassment to the game.
But again, with the caveat that PATTERNS SHOULD REMAIN PATTERNS AND NOT TURN INTO TEXTURES.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The inanimate tails are great if you don't have an actual tail but it's just a piece of a costume.
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The menus need to be redone, period. Whether you go with option 1 OR 2, they need to be redone. |
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
One thing to consider is that redo-ing the menus and placement of items within them is, in itself, a significant amount of work for the Character and Tech teams. Assume that any menu work will consume 50% of the time available for any redos.
Bottom line, avoiding menu work is preferable and brings us back to Options 1 and 2. |
It is inevitable and unavoidable.
The only question is, do you want to re-vamp the menus now, when your pile of crap is only calf deep?
OR do you really prefer to wait until the pile gets up to your hips?
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Tough decision for me. As you say, all the edge cases should certainly be considered.
But in the end, option 1 sounds best.
And please leave in the static tails.
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I would actually love to see new versions of the patterns with some "depth" to them, so they look like they might be clothes and not simply painted on. However, I also agree that in these cases, the old, painted-on patterns should remain as options.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But again, with the caveat that PATTERNS SHOULD REMAIN PATTERNS AND NOT TURN INTO TEXTURES.
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Option 2.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, folks. So I have two overarching philosophies when it comes to the Art Direction in COH: first, that we continue to improve the quality bar with every new initiative we undertake and second, that we not forget about the legacy art as this happens. But when it comes to legacy art, there are of course items in the Costume Creator that are starting to show their age. We could hypothetically remake these assets with crisper, more detailed textures and modern shaders and do our best to maintain the 'flavor' and 'feel' of the originals, with the goal of giving you the same stuff, only better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But then there's a choice on how to deploy them, and that's where this very informal poll comes in: How would you, the players, want to approach this issue? HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 1: Old assets would be removed from the Costume Creator menu and you'd have the newer, updated ones instead. Pro: This raises the overall quality bar of the game by eliminating the oldest, least-attractive pieces; players look cooler; everything looks more consistent and modern. Less menu clutter. Con: change is scary; perhaps some players will prefer the old pieces? HYPOTHETICAL OPTION 2: We leave the old version alone and put the new version immediately below it in the Costume Creator. Pro: Nothing is 'taken away.' Con: Outmoded art remains, clashes progressively more with newer, modern assets. Menus swell with 2 options for each basic piece, making it harder to navigate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you can see where I stand on this.  Personally, I'd like to see the game's art evolve, improve, and remain consistent, so I much prefer Option 1. But as always, I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this. Do me a favor and please keep your posts short and to the point. Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
Keep the static tails.
I agree with what has already been suggested here:
- Option 1* for those pieces where no geometry or shinyness or other more radical changes happen, instead of a simple increase in texture definition or something else that leaves the look and feel mostly unaltered.
*With the old pieces remaining in the database, althouth not in the menu, so a few people who -really- like them as they are (maybe someone -wants- to look like they have painted a white tank top on their chest!) can keep them.
- Option 2 for pieces where more radical changes happen.
On a separate but related note... Despite my general philosophy or preserving choice I, personally, wouldn't mind not having access to the non-animated tails anymore. I think I still use them on a couple of characters simply because I didn't take the time to go and fix those costumes. If they look exactly alike (except for moving now) I really don't see it as removing an option...
Playing CoH with Gestures
As the options are given, then I vastly prefer option 1. My reasons are:
- I prefer less clutter in the menus
- If no aesthetic details are changed, as was emphasized in the original post, I can't see any drawbacks. This thread should probably give a good indication of what people consider aesthetic details.
- I just came back from a stint in that other superhero MMO and while there are a number of things I like more in CoH/V (far less "glitchy" for one thing), graphics-wise the comparison does not favour CoH/V in or outside the costume creator. Comparing average quality in the costume creators only my personal impression is that CoH/V needs to do a quality pass and not only improve pieces but phase out the low-res, blurry variety. Or, if they are kept, only display them at very low graphic settings.
Furthermore, at some point I suspect you will have to do an update of geometries and add polygons: textures can only do so much.
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Nope, but I'd rather see the development time put into making the use of shadows not completely obliterate my framerate. That's probably not an easy feat tho, so I'd settle and be happy with new, crisp textures.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Would you really use the legacy asset w/ older, blurrier texture if a cleaner, sharper version was available to you?
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...and please add the mastermind bots to the "new texture asap!" list.
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
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Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
Option 1 all the way! The old pieces look horrid and really show the games age. I stay away from them like the plague. As others have said please keep painted on pieces like Eden look painted on but higher res. Heroes will always need their spandex! The old hairdos need a serious make over as well.
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This. So much this.|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
The menus need to be redone, period. Whether you go with option 1 OR 2, they need to be redone.
It is inevitable and unavoidable. The only question is, do you want to re-vamp the menus now, when your pile of crap is only calf deep? OR do you really prefer to wait until the pile gets up to your hips? . |
I will say that if the wing head piece is an example of an improved costume piece, then I definitely want both pieces available. While the newer piece looks nice, it doesn't necessarily work as a direct replacement for all of my characters that use that piece. Specifically it does not work for my forum namesake, who has had the original wings w/ headband since CoH beta.
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For the sake of the poll, I vote Option 1: scrap the legacy pieces, but....|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
One thing to consider is that redo-ing the menus and placement of items within them is, in itself, a significant amount of work for the Character and Tech teams. Assume that any menu work will consume 50% of the time available for any redos.
Bottom line, avoiding menu work is preferable and brings us back to Options 1 and 2. |
....scrap the legacy menu first, as in: "menu work should consume 100% of the time available for any redos until the menu work is complete."
And I say this because I can work with or around mismatched costume pieces for the time being, but in order to do so, I have to work with (and not around) outdated, cumbersome menus.
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I think that if you are just replacing or updating existing artwork and textures you should archive the original file. But if the new version is significantly different you should keep both versions. And its just going to have to be judged by you on a case by case basis. Some people will like the changes, others will want to hang you. |
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Fair enough, and point taken.
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As far as menus go, I would just be happy with consistent and accurate use of that ancient communication and organizational device known as the "alphabet".
Option 2. I always prefer more choice, whether it means cluttered menus or clipping. I'd rather deal with some inconvenience than lose options.
Busting heads since 1938
Character references * My DeviantArt gallery * I am an altoholic
Personally, I'm somewhat torn between the two options. On the left hand, change upwards is good, and so I kinda lean towards Option 1. On the other, not losing stuff and getting new stuff is also good, so I lean towards 2 as well.
But one thing that I'd like to see, just as a global thing? A warning in the tailor that "if you open this costume file, it will not be compatible" or some such. We already have it when loading new costumes from saved costume files. "This costume is invalid due to pieces X, Y, Z."
A little warning when entering a tailor with outmoded pieces would be appreciated, if only so that losing those legacy pieces wouldn't be so easy. At least one of my characters went from matte metallic to tights when I went into the tailor because of the graphical update, without so much as a "by your leave" because she had the "old" piece. Just a "Warning: You Have Old And Dusty Costume Parts. Do you REALLY want to edit this?" would be great.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're right: this whole issue is a money grab. We're going to be grabbing money from impatient people with money to burn and completionist complexes, and using it to make a better game for everyone, including the 99.9% of the rest of the playerbase that isn't going to be buying everything, multiple times, immediately upon release, and spending hundreds of dollars in the process.
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if all were are getting is an upgrade to existing pieces, I would say option #1 but keep the non moving tails and the paint on spandex.
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One of my first and still favorite characters has that tank top. I was playing him just the other day, and when I moved the camera in close the first thing that popped into my mind was, "That shirt looks terrible." If you want to update it, or anything else that looks that bad, it's fine by me. My pc can't handle the top end of the new graphics, but surely things could look better than that tank top.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Sure. Not saying that this is in the queue or anything, but take a look at the tank top. Currently, it's a simple cut-out without any details. Now look at a real-world tank top (like this one http://www.undershirtguy.com/wp-cont...n-tank-top.jpg) and note the trim and stitching along the edges and bottom. Also note the subtle folds and even subtler fabric texture. These are things that could be improved in an updated texture. Would it still be a plain white tank top? Of course! But it'd be a lot more realistic and convincing.
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Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I still frequently use the legacy belts because you can select the colour on the legacy "leather" belt, while the newer version is stuck as only black. Keeping in mind that this is a giant failing of design and a promise to not do stuff like this in the future (our colour options are an absolute must have, and any piece with flat, static colours needs to be revised (PPD pieces, I'm looking at you!)), I'll vote Option 1.
If you cannot stop from making flat, unchangeable colours on these textures, then you have to go with Option 2.
Superheroes look better in comic books than in real life. Real people look silly wearing leotards with capes.
I'm all for adding more costume pieces and adding updated versions of existing pieces. But sometimes a realistic look is worse than flat, two dimensional look.
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Regardless of how they are implemented, I hope that the upgraded pieces are being worked on as we speak.
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Let me add my weight to this. The un-alphabetical listing of several things is really annoying. I understand it in the context of the few textures that fit specific costume pieces (Stealth pattern for Stealth pieces, for instance), but other options are often seemingly placed at random. The most egregious place this happens is the "costume set" menu with all the "preset" configurations in it.
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Originally Posted by Handout
As far as menus go, I would just be happy with consistent and accurate use of that ancient communication and organizational device known as the "alphabet".
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The menus are, right now, in need of a tremendous amount of work. If it actually takes as much time to rearrange a menu as to update a texture, you really had better do it now, before you let it get so bad it takes as much time to rearrange a menu as to create a whole costume set.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
One thing to consider is that redo-ing the menus and placement of items within them is, in itself, a significant amount of work for the Character and Tech teams. Assume that any menu work will consume 50% of the time available for any redos.
Bottom line, avoiding menu work is preferable and brings us back to Options 1 and 2. |
You have already redone the menus quite a bit, mostly to great improvement. But they are disordered by a lot. The order they appear in the menu should not be required to be related to the numerical values of the costume pieces' representation, for example.
Right now, the way the menus are, it seems like it's far too easy for a selection to get omitted accidentally and no one to even notice for a while. A UI expert needs to work on it, rather than making it the job of the artists to make all the decisions and do all the work on the UI for the costume creator.
But really, half as many retextures + a good reorg of the costume creator would be by far my preference. Especially if it means we can keep legacy selections without cluttering the menus up.
I don't see the "this would be bad" argument here.
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On the flipside of that, I'd love to see an option in future for 'Default' colours for certain pieces, like the Resistance armour. An option that makes it look just like the NPC version, uneditable but an exact replica. I hate not being able to colour match stuff D=
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I still frequently use the legacy belts because you can select the colour on the legacy "leather" belt, while the newer version is stuck as only black. Keeping in mind that this is a giant failing of design and a promise to not do stuff like this in the future (our colour options are an absolute must have, and any piece with flat, static colours needs to be revised (PPD pieces, I'm looking at you!)), I'll vote Option 1.
If you cannot stop from making flat, unchangeable colours on these textures, then you have to go with Option 2. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Raise your hand here if any of you remember the "New Coke" debacle. The corporate peeps at that company thought at the time that Coke was getting old and outdated (same arguments some of you are using here), so a "facelift" was needed. The new and improved Coke went over like a brick. They didn't run it out against the old Coke to gauge what the populace would think; they just went ahead and blundered away.
What has that got to do with our situation?
Simple: Choice. The fans of Coke were not giving the choice to decide which they liked better, side-by-side, to gauge which was their favorite. If you look at all the new flavors coming out today, do you EVER see them (or Pepsi) repeating that mistake by replacing one with a new and improved version without doing some sampling first? Nope.
I personally would vote option #2, because I feel that we should never lose access to older stuff. Did all you people complaining about menu clutter, complain about the old versions of Positron and other revamped arcs going into the Ouroboros menus??
Basically, I think the Art department should do 5 or 10 upgraded pieces, put them in the costume creator next to the legacy pieces, and THEN ask our opinions. Just asking without seeing a decent size sampling is not sufficient. But, at least they didn't pull a total New Coke blunder...
Bottom line, avoiding menu work is preferable and brings us back to Options 1 and 2.
I know check boxes already exist in the costume creator (the "use same colors" circle thingy) and it's already capable of hiding or showing costume pieces based on a database flag (ie; unlockable costume pieces), so those two functions would only need to be combined.
I only ask because it seems like this would be something that could be done very quickly, assuming you can get the programming time OK'd for it. Of course I only know enough about programming to be familiar with it, so for all I know something like this would be way harder than I'm imagining it to be.