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Couldn't agree more. And I wouldn't count on this any time soon, especially if they have to overhaul the menu to accommodate this option. I'd guess issue 20 at the earliest. I remember lots of people getting excited over the Going Rogue announcement and expecting it to still come out in 2009, this will likely be no different considering the snail pace at which we get new costumes.
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Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Im 100% with you.
Cant understand why some players wanna be stuck in the past with low def and plain texture pieces... Any chance this updates come with I19 or soon? |
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David, may I suggest a potentially relatively simple (compared to reordering menus) implementation? If rewriting menus is 'Option 3,' this might be an 'Option 4'.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, guys. Just wanted to thank everyone for casting a vote and for helping us get a better picture of what the playerbase is thinking. Here's my takeaway from reading the 22+ pages of thoughts on the topic: Arguments on both sides were compelling to the point where a third option, perhaps involving the menu setup, seems like the best way to satisfy all parties. This is NOT a promise of future action, but it's the view I'll express on your behalf.
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Add a field to the tailor's costume list database.
If this field is not set, the costume is listed by default.
If the field is set to true, the costume is only listed if a 'legacy options' button is clicked.
There would be no increased menu complexity, you could be far more adventurous in what you can update than with option 1 only, the option would be accessed with just a click, and you could add legacy costumes that some people want to have back. It would dramatically improve the ability to deal with this issue long term, at (potentially, standard speculation disclaimer) only the cost of 1 more field that would be set instead of deleting it from the list. Compare that to menu reorders that would have to be redone any time this came up.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Since the poll's all informal, here's my informal barely-aware-the-game-HAS-art opinion.
It really bothered me in the past when changes were made to the costumes that forced me to reselect. Faces were a notable instance. My character looked a certain way, and I'd go into the tailor for some minor unrelated thing and the face was back to Normal 001 or whatever, and I had to try to eyeball which of the new options matched my memory of the old selection or else be stuck with 4 costumes with an Old Lady face and one with Young Zombie or whatever the hell it was. I made the selection once and really didn't enjoy being forced to do it again.
Old version or new version I don't care, just please don't saddle me with any chores. I mean the other departments there don't seem to mind doing that ("Have fun turning off pop-ups on 30 characters!"), but here's hoping the art department won't go doing me the favor of any resets.
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That's the good thing about the "Save" features in the costume creator. No need to guess anymore.|
Originally Posted by Amarsir
Old version or new version I don't care, just please don't saddle me with any chores. I mean the other departments there don't seem to mind doing that ("Have fun turning off pop-ups on 30 characters!"), but here's hoping the art department won't go doing me the favor of any resets.
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(Also, in your options settings you have a save feature too. You can select to turn off Pop Ups, hit save, then go into any alt and have the option of hitting "Load" to turn them off. Any character created after the file is saved is made with Pop Ups turned off, by default, too
)
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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This is the best solution, in my opinion. I lost one of the legacy faces on a character when the new ones were added, but on another character I was aware of it and never went to the tailor. Same thing with the loss of the Malaise pattern on the pants. By not visiting the tailor, I've managed to keep the pattern, even though it's no longer officially available.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Right. No one would be forced to update if they really love the old texture--it'd be a tailer opt-in.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I would strongly prefer if there was a checkbox in the tailor that just said "Show Legacy Pieces", unchecked by default. Those who want to use the old, low resolution costumes can check the box and enjoy the ugly low resolution textures, while new players would by default see the nice, high res ones.
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For some of us, costume appearance is a core aspect of our characters. I have characters who've existed since the first few weeks this game existed (been playing since CoH pre-release). Certainly those characters costumes have changed since I created them, but I eventually settled on a core appearance that's central to my concept for them, and some of the pieces (and faces) I've used are very old. Once I find an appearance I really liked, I generally do not change it. I may have other costumes for the characters, but there's always one stable "main" costume I intend to be theirs.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Im 100% with you.
Cant understand why some players wanna be stuck in the past with low def and plain texture pieces... But, anyway you doing it well since you listening to all of us. Everyone have a voice in this playerbase. Any chance this updates come with I19 or soon? |
Sure, some new pieces may come along, and I may decide that, "damn, that's so much more what I really wanted them to look like all along," and if so, then I'd change them. But that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed is taking legacy pieces and updating them, and there's simply no guarantee that those updates will leave my "core" costumes looking like they do now, or more specifically, that those updates will leave my "core" costumes looking good.
Saying it's just a choice between old, ugly pieces and new better ones is a false dichotomy. As a group, we have no idea what updated pieces might end up interacting with how some of us have used the legacy ones. Changing them (rather than adding updated versions) is risking that pieces we think work very well right now might not look right (or deliver the same impressions, which is important) tomorrow.
If you can't understand that, I really don't know how to explain it better.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I really would not like that. If a new and old piece really don't look the same, and I use the piece in a way that looks fine in the old view and bad in the new, I don't want a costume that looks bad to other people just because it looks OK to me.
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Originally Posted by Leandro
I would strongly prefer if there was a checkbox in the tailor that just said "Show Legacy Pieces", unchecked by default. Those who want to use the old, low resolution costumes can check the box and enjoy the ugly low resolution textures, while new players would by default see the nice, high res ones.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Well, Faithful Lion, it would only work if you added the new stuff and left the old stuff in. Most people will cry fowl...I mean foul. Sorry, chicken distraction.
A mantra from the early days in the game. Add stuff, don't take it away. Like left socks..
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
Could care less how my costume looks to other people, whether they like it or not is irrelevant to my costumes resolution... I'm not here to please them or cater to their subjective take on aesthetics or to play keep up with their graphics hardware.
It has to look decent to me on the graphics setting that I am using.
If for some reason players are having to use minimum or performance settings, they're not seeing the glories of higher resolution anyway; which means some of those newer pieces made to take advantage of higher resolutions just doesn't look right to some players sometimes; while the older pieces that cater to the lower resolutions work out just fine.
Even when the low res costume works for the player using it; there is always going to be a disparity between that player and the player at the higher end of the graphics scale... has been in in the past, will be in the future. High end graphics users will still balk [at] the decisions made by the low end users while the low end users will fail to see every last bit of detail the high end user put into his costume.
This especially holds true in the tran[s]fer of a toon from the Tailor to the open game; where lighting and other factors come into play.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
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I've seen a couple of options I've liked so far:
1. Have a "show legacy items" checkbox at the tailor. If unckecked, legacy items do not appear in any lists and cannot be chosen (but legacy options ALREADY CHOSEN are not altered). This way, we can remove the clutter for new players by default, but still leave a grab bag of old items for people who may want to opt in. Just to state, I don't agree with making people look different on other people's screens. This is only a costume sorting option.
2. A legacy tailor that has the old costume options, where all other regular tailors only have new options. That way, the options still exist, but they're not in new players' faces.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Never a truer word.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Could care less how my costume looks to other people, whether they like it or not is irrelevant to my costumes resolution... I'm not here to please them or cater to their subjective take on aesthetics or to play keep up with their graphics hardware.
It has to look decent to me on the graphics setting that I am using. If for some reason players are having to use minimum or performance settings, they're not seeing the glories of higher resolution anyway; which means some of those newer pieces made to take advantage of higher resolutions just doesn't look right to some players sometimes; while the older pieces that cater to the lower resolutions work out just fine. Even when the low res costume works for the player using it; there is always going to be a disparity between that player and the player at the higher end of the graphics scale... has been in in the past, will be in the future. High end graphics users will still balk and the decisions made by the low end users while the low end users will fail to see every last bit of detail the high end user put into his costume. This especially holds true in the tranfer of a toon from the Tailor to the open game; where lighting and other factors come into play. |
I remember *shudder* when I had to run CoX on my laptop. Ran smooth as a whistle, but only on minimum. It was....it....*ack*
Then I got my new rig. And a shiny 9800 GT gfx card.
The difference is ludicrous. While some pieces looked incredibly similar, some of them looked so different it was unbelievable. I had to edit more than one costume simply because the difference in colour tone and such actually changed between minimum and maximum.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm of mixed views on it.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Right. As newer, better options come online, I imagine that almost everyone will choose them naturally. And it's not about majority or minority--the development need, as I see it, is to get the old stuff out of the picture and to focus players around a core set of aesthetically-consistent, high-quality pieces. If we can do that without collateral damage, that sounds like a winning plan to me.
If it was just about me, I'd go for Option 1 because I'm really excited about the newest, coolest stuff (no surprise there!). But I'm not the only guy playing this game. I want each and every one of you to have an awesome experience on your own terms, so ultimately I'll cast my vote with everyone's interests in mind. |
Truthfully, I love my mains signature outfit...which uses the tights top option (with hacker decal), and bikini 2 bottom.
I'd go the shiney route if bikini 2 had a shiney option!
I might even go with patent leather top, if there was a bikini bottom that blended in well with it.
And that's part of the problems I've had with the newer sets. They look great! They just don't mesh well.
I'd love to have the bikini bottom of Mother Mayhem's outfit, that has a bit of a dimension (I think is the word Im looking for) to it, but would want it to blend with the top.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Good job Noble!
I couldn't care less if some folks think some costume pieces look old, as long as I like how they look on MY characters. You don't like how some of my costumes look don't team with me. I lose nothing.
I'm not here for anyone's pleasure.
To be honest I think a few of the newer pieces look like something that rhymes with "bass", 
, and as someone stated many of them DON'T mesh well together.
Also agree that it's a good time to deal with the clutter. Glad there was an option 3.
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Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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They look ace? |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
To be honest I think a few of the newer pieces look like something that rhymes with "bass",
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Love the animated tails, but there are clipping issues with the new ones with some few pieces.
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Originally Posted by Novapulse
Difficult question,
That said, to answer your question, I can't see any reason I would ever choose one of the older non-animated tails. |
I would like to point out to the people voting for Option 1 - you are assuming that you will approve of the changes. I wonder if anyone will log on an older character and realize that a beloved costume no longer works because there's now too much detail, a seam, or a change more drastic than expected. Taking options away, regardless of how useless a certain percentage of people find them, is always going to sadden another percentage of people.
The issue with the disorganization in the menu isn't new.. they started getting sloppy even when CoV was released. And with all of the updates since then, it has just gotten worse and worse. This has been a known issue that has been ignored to the point that now it's even more of a bear to handle. The more pieces that come out, the worse this problem will become. I agree with several previous posters: revamping the menu should take 100% of the "old pieces update" time, until it's done. Make finding pieces and creating costumes a cleaner, easier experience - then think about updating the older bits.
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I am so very glad to see you say this. Thank you very, very much for asking for our input and taking the time to listen. Even if we don't get what we want, at least we'll know we were heard, and our opinions considered.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, guys. Just wanted to thank everyone for casting a vote and for helping us get a better picture of what the playerbase is thinking. Here's my takeaway from reading the 22+ pages of thoughts on the topic: Arguments on both sides were compelling to the point where a third option, perhaps involving the menu setup, seems like the best way to satisfy all parties. This is NOT a promise of future action, but it's the view I'll express on your behalf.
So yay--everyone wins. We'll make every effort to create new pieces that give you all better options in areas that might be lacking. And don't worry, Option 2 folks--nothing will be removed from the system. If anyone would like to comment further about specific costume pieces, please don't hesitate to post in the All Things Art thread. Cheers, Noble Savage |
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You're also assuming that you'll hate the changes before you see them. See how this works? If you never use something, it's not really an option anymore, is it... There are 5 costume slots for a reason. They don't expect people to stick to one costume for the entire life of their character.| I would like to point out to the people voting for Option 1 - you are assuming that you will approve of the changes. I wonder if anyone will log on an older character and realize that a beloved costume no longer works because there's now too much detail, a seam, or a change more drastic than expected. Taking options away, regardless of how useless a certain percentage of people find them, is always going to sadden another percentage of people. |
Some people just need to realize that they're playing a game with other people and understand that sometimes design decisions don't go their way. This goes for powers, game play mechanics, content, AND artwork/costumes. No matter what decision David makes, it's not going to make everyone happy. There is no such thing as an option that 100% of the player base will like better than the status quo.
The level of fearing change in this thread is bordering on silly.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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You're misunderstanding it. This would be a checkbox at the tailor. It doesn't relate to how you look to yourself or others in any way.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I really would not like that. If a new and old piece really don't look the same, and I use the piece in a way that looks fine in the old view and bad in the new, I don't want a costume that looks bad to other people just because it looks OK to me.
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You click it and those costumes set as 'legacy' are unhidden in the tailor lists.
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| There is no such thing as an option that 100% of the player base will like better than the status quo. |
I'm guessing it will please the devs too, as it may be simpler to implement than a menu reorganization.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I remember when the V belt was changed, it used to have a bulkier look, which I loved on one of my toons, and now...gone. :/|
Originally Posted by Sapphire7
I would like to point out to the people voting for Option 1 - you are assuming that you will approve of the changes. I wonder if anyone will log on an older character and realize that a beloved costume no longer works because there's now too much detail, a seam, or a change more drastic than expected. Taking options away, regardless of how useless a certain percentage of people find them, is always going to sadden another percentage of people.
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I wish they had kept it as V1, V2, V3.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I'm not assuming I'll hate the changes. I may love them. But I am very sure that there will be a lot of people who don't like the changes. While I recognize that it's impossible to please 100% of the people, why should we do something that is guaranteed to make a portion of the population unhappy? Why not provide updated textures for the people who want them, but leave the legacy options for others? Why are more choices a bad thing? The menu needs to be updated regardless, and I personally think that should be a higher priority than revamping "old looking" pieces. The menu is more of an eyesore and everyone has to use it. |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
You're also assuming that you'll hate the changes before you see them. See how this works? If you never use something, it's not really an option anymore, is it... There are 5 costume slots for a reason. They don't expect people to stick to one costume for the entire life of their character.
Some people just need to realize that they're playing a game with other people and understand that sometimes design decisions don't go their way. This goes for powers, game play mechanics, content, AND artwork/costumes. No matter what decision David makes, it's not going to make everyone happy. There is no such thing as an option that 100% of the player base will like better than the status quo. The level of fearing change in this thread is bordering on silly. |
It's not a fear of change, it's a fear of losing pieces to which many have grown fond. A little empathy would go a long way in this thread.
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Just an aside - I love that save feature. I'm an RP'er. In Praetoria we only get the one costume slot so I use the save feature when I switch outfits for different missions and RP purposes. Even my toons with 5 costume slots use it for my holiday outfits.
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Originally Posted by Commander
That's the good thing about the "Save" features in the costume creator. No need to guess anymore.
(Also, in your options settings you have a save feature too. You can select to turn off Pop Ups, hit save, then go into any alt and have the option of hitting "Load" to turn them off. Any character created after the file is saved is made with Pop Ups turned off, by default, too ) |
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Except that example assumes the situations are symmetric, and the point is that they are not. If everyone loves the new items, then losing the old items is a non-issue. But if that assumption turns out false, then for folks opposed to Option 1 there's the risk of losing something that potentially cannot be regained.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
You're also assuming that you'll hate the changes before you see them. See how this works?
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| If you never use something, it's not really an option anymore, is it... There are 5 costume slots for a reason. |
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| They don't expect people to stick to one costume for the entire life of their character. |
Obviously I don't think you can do any of those things. The above is your opinion. You don't speak for the devs; you're stating you you think things should be based on what you do. Thereby, you're trying to enforce how you play the game on other people, without regard for their own preferences.
Let's call things like they are - everyone here is looking out for their own interests. The problem is, as I pointed out above, that the results of the different options here have asymmetric outcomes. When it comes to how their characters look, pro-Option 1 people are guaranteed to [edit]to not lose anything from[/edit] their own costumes with any of Option 1, 2 or 3, while the anti-Option 1 people risk undesirable (to them) costume changes with Option 1.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I have not yet read all the posts in this thread, but I would like to throw my two cents in over this one hopefully without being redundant. The animated tails are great for toons whose concept indeed warrants they would have a fully functional tail while non-animated tails are great for toons whose concept warrants they are just wearing a tail. Personally, I would love to see more non-animated typically animated pieces.|
Possible grist for the mill: --non-animated tails were left in Costume Creator when Animated Tails were added. Do any of you use the non-moving ones at this point? |
I have a toon who is supposed to fly with wings, so even though she is a shapeshifter every costume has wings, and I like that they move. On the flip side I have a toon whose concept is that she is just a girl, and gave herself the hero name Energy Angel because she likes angels. If I could have angel wings which did not move at all when jumping or flying, this would be perfect for her, as it would just be cosplay for her to "put on" wings.
I like that both types of tails are available for that very reason. Not every toon wearing a tail is actually a toon who has a tail (if that makes sense} even if we know the majority of players are using the animated tails more frequently. I for one would in fact specifically choose the non-animated tails for conceptual reasons alone.
Bunny Power for the win!!!
Thanks again, NS!