Important System Improvements in Going Rogue
By
Adar_ICT,
Posted on: 2010-06-22 09:55 in Developers' Corner
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I don't think that will happen in the forseeable future, because the only items which routinely trade off-market for above the inf cap are two or three extremely desireable items which only drop off of PvP kills, which means they're substantially rarer than even purples.
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
That means when the really pricey stuff is comforatably hitting 2 billion, the cap will have to be raised or trading will be done privately. That would be a shame because the number of players who frequent the forums is pretty small compared to total population. They won't even know one was for sale.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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To clarify. |
Originally Posted by Smurch
The markets are not segregated by server. Right now the markets are Blue Side across ALL servers (one market, all servers), and red-side is one market across all servers. This will make it one market across all servers and each side, not one per server.
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Currently:
Wentworths encompasses ALL North American and EU servers for Heroes. Similarly, the Black Market encompasses ALL North American and EU servers for Villains.
This essentially means that EU players regularly trade with players on the North American servers. It was a decision/feature we made back when we launched the AH system in Issue 9 (that the markets be a global system).
With the Going Rogue expansion launch on August 17th:
There will be "one" market for ALL North American and European servers that will be accessible to any "alignment" (Hero, Villain, Vigilante, Rogue).
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So you don't know how the markets are manipulated but you know that having an increased supply will somehow increase the prices and make it easier for market manipulators to profit?
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
In a logical world, that would be true. However, the Marketeers that are creating the same manipulations in the market today (1,000,000 common salvage, for example) are simply being given a larger playing field.
Like I've said earlier, I don't tend toward playing the market mini-game. As a rule I slot what drops, but occasional I want to use the market to get a specific piece of salvage or something, especially with the intro of the temp combat powers. On blue side, that tended to be difficult at best, but at least on red side it could be done more times than not. This change - and I truly hope to be proven wrong - is going to benefit a specific group of players to the detriment of all the others. I think the devs have based this idea solely on "ease of maintainability" with little regard towards the player base as a whole. But that's just me. I guess we'll see when the dust settles in September or Novemeber. |
"Unfair", no. Indicative of unchecked, out-of-control inflation and manipulation, yes. (IMO, of course.)
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Oh, I don't now when it will happen. But it will eventually. If prices keeping trending up, eventually those purples that sell now for a billion plus will rach 2 billion plus.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I don't think that will happen in the forseeable future, because the only items which routinely trade off-market for above the inf cap are two or three extremely desireable items which only drop off of PvP kills, which means they're substantially rarer than even purples.
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But really, there are going to be so many changes that it is really hard to predict what the overall effect will be.
New low level content should mean a better supply of salvage, but it also means merit farmers and AE ticket farmers will be doing less of that so maybe certain recipes will actually get scarcer.
But then again the new story arcs in pretoria will probably have some merits associated with them as well as new exploration accolades so maybe rares under 20 will get a nice bump in supply.
Just too many variables to do anything other than guess.
But one thing is certain, whatever happens, players who play the market will find some way to make money on it. (I certainly hope so anyway!)
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Most trends have an upper bound. The shortest times for 100-meter dashes haven't decreased at the same rate throughout history because human performance reaches an upper limit and can't be pushed much farther.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
If prices keeping trending up, eventually those purples that sell now for a billion plus will rach 2 billion plus.
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Similarly, there is a maximum price that the market will bear for any given item and, as indicated elsewhere (possibly also in this thread), there are ways to undercut the profiteers who play the market to drive prices up. There will always be people willing to sell for less than the supposed going rate just to be rid of something quickly. If you're patient, you can get things cheap and if you're willing to sell for a little less, you can get rid of things quicker. It's not rocket surgery.
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That would be the devs that created the following situations.|
Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
I'd love to find the person(s) who arbitrarily decided that the price of anything really nice should be 100+ million, or 1+ billion in the case of certain PvP accessories.
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- 50s make more money than everyone else.
- It's become progressively easier to reach level 50, thanks to benefits like XP smoothing and Patrol XP.
- A little known part of XP smoothing was that mobs lower-level than you became worth less reward than previously and higher-level mobs became worth more.
- IOs increased our survivability, how fast we can attack, how much damage we can do on average, and how long we can fight non-stop. This had the effect of improving how many foes we can fight at once, how many levels over us they are, or both.
- Before I16 it was easy to build characters that could survive (and defeat) many more foes than they could actually face in a mission. The new difficulty settings changed that. When you at your peak sustainable level instead of below it, you maximize your reward rate.
- Right after I16, the devs approximately doubled the amount of inf level 50s gain for defeated foes when you average across the ranks and their distribution in normal missions.
The reason people are paying 100M to 1B for rare items is because they have it. Extremely conservative estimates suggest that 1B inf is created every hour on average. The market allows market sellers to aggregate that wealth from multiple buyers. Sell rare stuff and you get to aggregate wealth from other aggregators. Then you get to turn around and spend that on some super shiny item.
If the devs want prices to fall, they need to increase the number of ways we get rid of inf in the system. I should point out that one interpretation of the "new supply" that WW mentions is that they plan to "seed" the market with stuff. If so, done carefully, this could be a wonderful inf sink. If you end up buying some fancy rare IO from an automated system, 100% of your inf vanishes from circulation.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Its not just you, but its false all the same.
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
I think the devs have based this idea solely on "ease of maintainability" with little regard towards the player base as a whole.
But that's just me. |
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Only 16 pages in day one? :\ Pretty sure the new booster got more then that.
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Only going to have to move a lot of toons one step, instead of all the way now.
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I hadn't even thought to interpret it that way. Something to think about for sure.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
If the devs want prices to fall, they need to increase the number of ways we get rid of inf in the system. I should point out that one interpretation of the "new supply" that WW mentions is that they plan to "seed" the market with stuff. If so, done carefully, this could be a wonderful inf sink. If you end up buying some fancy rare IO from an automated system, 100% of your inf vanishes from circulation.
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Very good news.
To help with market manipulation, how about making a little graph showing the trading prices for the past month? Five most recent buys just allows people to monkey with the market. And try clicking through the different levels of one of the procs and see the crazy different prices all for something that does the same thing regardless of level...
I'd love to see a UI something like this: I want to buy recipe X. I can set the level range to view the prices for multiple levels at once, a graph for each of the prices over the last few days, and also the prices for crafted enhancements (those never seem to relate back to their recipe counterparts).
The amount of information now that helps in trading is almost as bad as a US hedge fund....
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Less to complain about in this announcement. Sad but true. Just the way of the forums more than anything else. |
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
Only 16 pages in day one? :\ Pretty sure the new booster got more then that.
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| /Signed for awesome though |
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| Only going to have to move a lot of toons one step, instead of all the way now. |
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I couldn't agree more.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm... not entirely sure what you mean by this LoT.
The Auction House is just one way to accomplish in-game item procurement. It is by no means the end-all / be-all of item procurement. Granted the severe abuse of the auction house system has driven players to use everything but the auction house to procure items they want. Merging the servers may or may not address the market abusers. Until the problem players are dealt with, it's generally going to be less time-consuming for the casual player to keep doing what they've been doing: running AE, Ouro, and Task Forces for what they want. |
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will the cosmetic system looks as it does now?
black market trucks and went worth buildings?
and keep the names as they are?
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In general this is something that most forum posters have been seeking. Compared to the cough demonic booster - I mean mutation booster -. People like to complain more than praise. |
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
Only 16 pages in day one? :\ Pretty sure the new booster got more then that.
/Signed for awesome though Only going to have to move a lot of toons one step, instead of all the way now. |
Additionally, even if you are against a merger there isn't much of a leg to stand on. You can either argue based on:
1. Ignorance of economics
2. Arbitrary RP of a game system in this one specific scenario while ignoring other RP invalid game systems.
You won't find a lot of people willing to step up to the plate and be stomped on in either option.
About time! I've been saying they should merge the markets for years. I'm so glad this will be happening. I <3 you Paragon Studios!
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Ok i wasnt really jumping for joy when i first read the merger cos i dont yet get the big idea about it...however im happy for this tho cos some prices have just gone completely overboard..pvp recipes are an example.
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Originally Posted by Ghost Falcon
Wentworth and Black Market Bid histories will be 'wiped', and will start with a clean slate.
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We should just remove the market and give everyone all the RARE IO sets at level 1... Then people won't complain about prices.
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...and cupcakes and brownies will fall from the sky. All the while, the children will still kick and scream and cry that their poor little tummies hurt.
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
We should just remove the market and give everyone all the RARE IO sets at level 1... Then people won't complain about prices.
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This news seems to have made many people happy and a few people unhappy. As I don't spend a lot of time on the market I fall into the middle ground, I'm indifferent to the news. Just call it another shade of gray. It's great that this should apparently remedy a problem with the red-side market (hadn't noticed it myself really, don't buy top-end stuff), and will mean less dev-devoted time to maintaining the systems if the markets hadn't merged.
As I've been in the vocal minority in the past (in-game ads) don't be too harsh on those who don't share your joy. Hopefully the many and splendid other features of Going Rogue will have something to keep them playing.
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Originally Posted by Dr_HR
Ok i wasnt really jumping for joy when i first read the merger cos i dont yet get the big idea about it...however im happy for this tho cos some prices have just gone completely overboard..pvp recipes are an example.
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Yes. Because wiping the sale histories is going to fix that.
Mate!! this is brilliant, i'm gona be switchin sides like there's no tmorrow now =P
Also this is gona practically double supplies of market merch. You dev's really know how to make us happy don't ya 
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I think this is correct and under appreciated. Prices are rising slowly because of inflation - not because of manipulations or the last 5 display. It's because inf is being devalued constantly.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The reason people are paying 100M to 1B for rare items is because they have it. Extremely conservative estimates suggest that 1B inf is created every hour on average. The market allows market sellers to aggregate that wealth from multiple buyers. Sell rare stuff and you get to aggregate wealth from other aggregators. Then you get to turn around and spend that on some super shiny item.
If the devs want prices to fall, they need to increase the number of ways we get rid of inf in the system. |
Now, I actually don't think it's that big of a deal. As prices rise, it means sellers are making more, and able to buy just as much as they were before. But it will become a big deal if the general price level hits the inf cap.
I think more inf sinks are probably a good idea, though every time they add one people are going to complain about it.
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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time
I was referring to the atrocious state at which the market is currently in. What do I mean by that? Well as others have already stated the almost complete drought on red side for every item from the most common salvage to the most rare IO. I mean at one point a year or two ago a common lvl 50 accuracy IO was about 200,000 infamy and today it's in some cases ranging from 700 to 1 million. Blue side while not suffering from the same lack of supply that red side does has nonetheless felt the pinch in the sense that prices have increased there as well. I mean when I checked the market a long while back you could get a damage Hecatomb for 300-500 million. Now they are hovering at a BILLION for some of them.
Will the market merger help to deflate prices? I don't know but I'm hopeful. However with the system being the way it has been so long there is no way of really knowing how it will react. |
Erm, common Accuracy IOs go for 700,000 to a million? Really? The same ones you can buy at the crafting tables to craft? Are you sure you're not resorting to hyperbole here at all?
I love the idea of a market merge but as someone who has been happily frankenslotting all of my powers for the last 2 weeks Red Side calling the redside market "a complete drought" is a gross exaggeration.
Alternatively, you could find someone who is selling off the market and offer them the same 2 billion inf, which they will turn down because Player B over there is offering them 4 billion. What's the moral of this story? Price caps cause a real black market because sellers are unable to get a fair price for their goods the "normal" way. You may argue that 4 billion isn't a fair price, but that just means it isn't a fair price in your eyes, because if it wasn't really a fair price, people wouldn't be able to ask 4 billion and still get it. For an example of this, try listing a piece of common salvage (any piece) for 1 billion inf and see how long it sits there before someone buys it.
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