Important System Improvements in Going Rogue
Another way to reduce inflation is to increase the supply of the items being purchased.
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Players can do this by simply placing on the market a larger percentage of the items that drop. |
There is a solution that doesn't involve simply dialing up the reward rates, but it wouldn't go over well.
@SPTrashcan
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One is that there is more "spread" between casual gamers and power inf gamers (akin to the recent trend to an ever-greater divide between rich and poor in the US). That greatly inflates certain items that those with billions to spend will pay, but those more casual gamers will never have. The safety valve for this *should* be merits (leaving purples to rocket up), as even a casual gamer could get a super-shiney randomly or save up for one. Thing is, I don't think these recipes are making it to the market frequently enough to lower the price. Either people are using them, or selling them at the inflated price.
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If purples were abundant and cheap, they wouldn't be working as intended.
Second, you're still ignoring that for every buyer there's a seller. Whenever someone pays a high price for something, that means someone on the other side got that inf. This works really well for lowbies who can rake in some serious cash for a stray rare drop.
Second thing is that the market is not rational. Sometimes someone with a lot to spend will pay a hundred thousand for something they want "NAO" - and without sufficient down price pressure that becomes the new normal price, even if it doesn't match supply and demand... So it is a very chaotic system, made more so by very limited market information and very small market sizes. |
So I don't fully disagree with what you're saying - I just don't think it's a problem in the context of a game economy.
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There are a lot of things the Dev could do to lessen inflation, but they generally amount to the same thing: Dev control of the market.
I am not opposed to Dev control of the market, but that would be kind of against the point of having the free market in the first place.
What I'd like to see the Devs do is make it infinitely easy for drops to make it to the market. If that doesn't work, then IMHO the Devs need to take some direct control over pricing rather than play percentage games.
Most other measures that come easily to my mind: increasing drop rates, reducing Merit options, decreasing inf drops, etc is playing luck games and hoping the playerbase reacts the way you want.
I am more interested in seeing if the players will step up and use the power they have to resolve/prevent the market issues themselves, or whether they will 'prove' that the idea of a player run market is a pretty, but ultimately busted, myth.
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Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
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If I was a dev I would introduce some kind of lottery where you can spend a whole lot of Inf in exchange for random salvage and recipes. Totally random, but of course with a very small chance for the good stuff to drop. This would remove Influence from rotation, which reduces inflation. By adjusting the cost of the random rolls the devs can adjust the inflation rate as needed.
In-game I would present this as high-risk enterprises which characters can invest in. Some examples:
Magical Rituals. You cooperate with The Midnighters in performing certain rituals to enchant items, contact and barter with various entities or investigate new magic. You will gain one piece of random magical salvage or a random recipe.
Super-science. Same as above but you help Portal Corp investigate new materials and form new scientific theories, explore other dimensions, and trade with them. You will gain one piece of random technological salvage or a random recipe.
Villains would have similar options but they would probably work within the framework of Arachnos, or possibly with the Circle of Thorns and Crey.
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Infiltrate and take over to gain control over more supers. |
It's not logically necessary - it was necessary for the game mechanics they're introducing in GR, and to improve the market's performance for villain-side players. |
I'm not really trying to convince you to use the markets, but I'm just curious... if War Witch had got on and said, "Hey folks, even though the markets are merged mechanically for player convenience, our lore is that they are still separate - all bids are anonymous, so you can pretend the extra bids are coming from other NPC characters on your same side." |
So I note that you have no problem rewriting the game's canon when you need to, which is a good and healthy approach. So why the sudden hangup? |
Except APPARENTLY THEY ARE, given that I can get these things by beating up a random Freakshow. |
At the end of the one in Heroes, you mean, which was written before City of Villains and all ITS Crey storylines appeared. She and Crey are a persistent evil that can never be truly defeated, which is why they keep showing up in new zones and getting new storylines. Are you not familiar with the serial nature of superhero comics, or how villains are never truly vanquished once and for all? Just tell me you've heard of Lex Luthor, who has been openly responsible for crimes against humanity and was also the President. |
Things that work in comics don't necessarily work in games. The "Status Quo is God" approach has serious issues in games, where it can lead to players becoming frustrated and discouraged if they're never allowed to win any kind of lasting victory. Given that the story is only read once there is no good reason why, in the general case at least, the story for some factions should not end in their defeat. In the Countess' case there is a legitimate escape hatch (it seemed obvious to me at least that the woman you capture at the end is the Countess' clone, which is why she won't even talk to "her" mother) but to declare that she and the company just beat the rap and walked away is silly and insulting.
No it isn't. My argument is "a shared universe written by a lot of people over a long span of time is going to have a ton of contradictions, so why act like that's not the case when you can just ignore what you want?" |
You didn't actually address my point. The game is FULL of fallacies (not to mention a high level of moral ambiguity, intentional and otherwise). Why is this one the end of the world? |
God, I'd love to see the regulatory body that oversees a store that freely sells enriched plutonium, devastating computer viruses and manifested shards of the fabric of reality to anyone who has enough money. I can't IMAGINE how there might be some corruption in an institution like that! |
(the partial list of cities attacked by the Rikti is, btw, found in the same posts of "former dev" Manticore as the Countess Crey stuff) |
The devs say INF isn't money, but you don't care what they say: |
Well: its highly unlikely your characters will ever find proof that materials are being smuggled between the markets, because the devs haven't and aren't likely to implement such activities in the game. |
Interesting self-imposed challenge! Will you combine it with a MAN build or perma-death for Double Jeopardy? |
As a player of more than a couple of blueside alts who are less than heroic, I want to thank Venture for all his contributions to Wentworth's. |
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If I was a dev I would introduce some kind of lottery where you can spend a whole lot of Inf in exchange for random salvage and recipes. Totally random, but of course with a very small chance for the good stuff to drop. This would remove Influence from rotation, which reduces inflation. By adjusting the cost of the random rolls the devs can adjust the inflation rate as needed.
In-game I would present this as high-risk enterprises which characters can invest in. Some examples: Magical Rituals. You cooperate with The Midnighters in performing certain rituals to enchant items, contact and barter with various entities or investigate new magic. You will gain one piece of random magical salvage or a random recipe. Super-science. Same as above but you help Portal Corp investigate new materials and form new scientific theories, explore other dimensions, and trade with them. You will gain one piece of random technological salvage or a random recipe. Villains would have similar options but they would probably work within the framework of Arachnos, or possibly with the Circle of Thorns and Crey. |
Personally, if I were to create a money sink I would:
Sell T3 inspirations (they would not be cheap)
Directly sell a small number of unique recipes. They wouldn't be the same recipes as the drops, although they might be functionally identical.
Ex. a 3% def IO that would go for 250 million influence.
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I have to ask this, why the change now? What finally clicked with someone to say "By golly I think this might work!" Was it like I woke up this morning and I think I'm going to have the markets merged or was it an eventual arm breaking snap from the collective that finally gave way?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I don't accept either premise. It looks like bread and circuses to me (which is why I wasn't surprised to hear it).
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Or, you know, if something isn't game-breaking and it makes a lot of people enjoy the game more, then maybe, just maybe, the designers of a fun-time pretendy game should consider putting it in.
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Personally, I'd kind of like to see 2 or 3 digits chopped off/rounded up. Prices, drops, bank balances, everything, across the board. Don't change or try to "fix" anything else yet; just make the numbers a little more sane so we aren't throwing around millions and billions.
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Personally, I'd kind of like to see 2 or 3 digits chopped off/rounded up. Prices, drops, bank balances, everything, across the board. Don't change or try to "fix" anything else yet; just make the numbers a little more sane so we aren't throwing around millions and billions.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
I have to ask this, why the change now? What finally clicked with someone to say "By golly I think this might work!" Was it like I woke up this morning and I think I'm going to have the markets merged or was it an eventual arm breaking snap from the collective that finally gave way?
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[SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow][U]Virtue Heroes (Serenity's Children):[/U] [B]@Eek a Mouse, The Devil's Mark, Outlaw Sniper, Gas-Soaked Rag Man, Amazon Prime, Friday's Child, Hot Blooded,[/B][B]Flower of the Moon[/B], [B]Rouge Demon Hunter[/B], Stimulated Emission, Animatronic Wench, [B]Lennie Small[/B]
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As I said, I don't see any way such activity could possibly stay hidden. The devs can fiat that it is, but just because the guy behind the screen says something does not mean the players have to swallow it whole. Tabletop players may be limited to refusing to participate in such circumstances; this being an MMO I have some flexibility. Wentworth's obvious corruption may be something too big for my hero characters to do anything about but they do not have to partake of it. If I'm the only one to act thus, so it goes. The majority can never replace the man.
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The devs haven't actually stated that materials physically transport themselves between factions, except in the grey area case of characters taking their possessions across alignments with them when they switch sides. Until it happens in-game, by your rules what little they've said is not officially canon anyway. So what activity is supposed to be "obvious?"
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I say replace prestige with influence like it should have been from the beginning.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
As I said, I don't see any way such activity could possibly stay hidden. The devs can fiat that it is, but just because the guy behind the screen says something does not mean the players have to swallow it whole. Tabletop players may be limited to refusing to participate in such circumstances; this being an MMO I have some flexibility. Wentworth's obvious corruption may be something too big for my hero characters to do anything about but they do not have to partake of it. If I'm the only one to act thus, so it goes. The majority can never replace the man.
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Faces of the City
By the way, for those of you who RP, do you actually have to make a merged market "canon"? Like just because the game makes items available to both sides via the markets, you don't have to think of that as being an in-game thing - I assume most RPers don't try and work the floating damage and healing numbers or the player names above every avatar head into their "in-character" stuff, as they're just visible game mechanics to help make gameplay easier, so I don't see why it wouldn't be easy to look at the combined markets in the same way - an "out-of-character" game mechanic to make the game work better.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
By the way, for those of you who RP, do you actually have to make a merged market "canon"? Like just because the game makes items available to both sides via the markets, you don't have to think of that as being an in-game thing - I assume most RPers don't try and work the floating damage and healing numbers or the player names above every avatar head into their "in-character" stuff, as they're just visible game mechanics to help make gameplay easier, so I don't see why it wouldn't be easy to look at the combined markets in the same way - an "out-of-character" game mechanic to make the game work better.
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Another excellent case in point was the original granite armor for Stone Tanks, which had an accuracy debuff. In logical terms it makes sense that a multi-ton hunk of rock would have problems accurately hitting enemies, and enemies would have an easy time figuring out what attack the multi-ton hunk of rock was launching. In play it was found that the accuracy debuff was frustrating to players constantly wiffing at mobs. The debuff also prevented the tank from fulfilling it's gameplay design: holding aggro.
So, the granite armor penalty was changed to just do less damage. No, it doesn't make sense that a multi-ton hunk of solid rock punching an enemy does less damage, but the game-play goal of a debuff penalty to the armor set was met without aggravating the player.
That particular change has been in place for so long, it's barely thought of now. Yes, the topic comes up every once in a while when somebody declares it's time for Stone Armor to be revamped... but for the most part the player base has gotten used to the sacrifice of logic in favor of game-play mechanics.
I suspect in time the more hard-core Role-Players will also accept the sacrifice of a bit of story immersion in favor of a superior game-play mechanic.
By the way, for those of you who RP, do you actually have to make a merged market "canon"? Like just because the game makes items available to both sides via the markets, you don't have to think of that as being an in-game thing - I assume most RPers don't try and work the floating damage and healing numbers or the player names above every avatar head into their "in-character" stuff, as they're just visible game mechanics to help make gameplay easier, so I don't see why it wouldn't be easy to look at the combined markets in the same way - an "out-of-character" game mechanic to make the game work better.
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If you try to take this game completely literally, it will drive you insane. Some things are just better ignored (like the absurd setup they gave us for the Mission Architect feature).
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War Witch made it pretty clear that it was the reluctance to add a THIRD system to cover the Praetorian market. Making a single market is "easier" or otherwise preferable to having a Wentworth's for influence, a Black Market for infamy, and a "Nova Venalicium" for "information" (which appears to be the Praetorian currency).
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She also said that Going Rogue created the opportunity to merge the markets, which implies this is something they have been thinking about for more than just Going Rogue, but Going Rogue itself gave them both the impetus and the resources to tackle the situation.
I don't think its fair, as some have (not saying you are specifically), to suggest that this is just the devs taking the easy way out. I think its more a case of many factors combining simultaneously to cause them to take action.
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You're right, of course. It just gets a little irritating and/or silly looking at all those empty zeroes - insignificant digits. Prices almost too wide to fit in the window. This must be what it's like to live in a country with hyperinflation, where you need bills with denominations in the thousands to buy a loaf of bread.
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Then the market came, and level 1 characters could obtain things that level 50 characters wanted, and hilarity ensued.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Your ability to earn influence would not be diminished so you could earn the amount you need to buy item X faster if it's cheaper. Not from marketeering obviously, but from normal play.
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I just realized that although inf is streaming in constantly, so are drops. So it's not actually obvious to me that the price level should rise over time. I think it would depend on the drop rate vs the inf generation rate, and which one is faster.
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A cursory examination of the rewards for various activities will show that it is nearly impossible to do anything without generating inf. Drops, especially certain highly valued drops, are not awarded nearly as universally. This is a particular problem redside, and after a certain point scarcity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Looking at the markets, I'd say pools A and B look well-supplied, at least at level 50 and especially since I16. Pool C/D has taken both an intentional and (I believe) an unintentional hit with the introduction of merits. I believe many people hoard merits and/or spend them on specific goods, and I'd bet that these secondary effects put the real pool C/D supply rate under the devs' design targets. The devs probably mitigated this somewhat with the introduction of boss drops from those pools, but I have no way to quantify it. Based on my anecdotal experience with how people use it, I'd say that most use of the AE ends up decreasing drop rates - the only times it clearly appeared to increase them was when I14 was brand new, and the ticket cap was still 9999.
I respectfully disagree.
Another way to reduce inflation is to increase the supply of the items being purchased. Players can do this by simply placing on the market a larger percentage of the items that drop. |
Personally, I'd kind of like to see 2 or 3 digits chopped off/rounded up. Prices, drops, bank balances, everything, across the board. Don't change or try to "fix" anything else yet; just make the numbers a little more sane so we aren't throwing around millions and billions.
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A more meaningful change, in my opinion, would be to flatten the slope of the inf earning rate vs. level we have in CoH. I'm not of the opinion that this is terribly important to do, but it certainly would cause less of the stories of wide-eyed awe with which people who don't play level 50s regard the price of things like Miracles, LotGs and purples.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Another example of a visible out-of-game mechanic is the enhancements screen - along with the level up and power selection screen - a lot of the enhancments are abstract ideas rather than physical things, and while some power sets, like Martial Arts, would use set names to describe the attacks, other power sets wouldn't really have a standard set of names for each type of power, witht he same types of damage and effectiveness.
For example, I don't see the point in trying to RP why every single Hero or Villain who carries two guns only ever uses a small selection of identical attacks, which would be totally dumb in real life to stick to the same rigid moves all the time - or how exactly "Combat Sprinting" is some kind of physical thing you can buy or sell at an auction house.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I'm not of the opinion that this is terribly important to do, but it certainly would cause less of the stories of wide-eyed awe with which people who don't play level 50s regard the price of things like Miracles, LotGs and purples.
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Level 50s play what is essentially an entirely different game than everyone else in terms of earning and challenge (debt is meaningless and can top a million inf per play hour); yet they participate in the same market.
It's kind of like assigning Donald Trump the job of deciding the price of bread (horrendous exaggeration to make a point).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
It has been stated that the red gates opened all over the world during in inital invasion.
http://www.cityofheroes.com/game_inf..._invasion.html
This link talks about the scope of the war.