Important System Improvements in Going Rogue
By
Adar_ICT,
Posted on: 2010-06-22 09:55 in Developers' Corner
Quote:
Really? Cos I'm vendoring a lot of stuff that there is a massive oversupply of. No buyers and 200-300 units up for sale. Both recipies and salvage of all colours. I picked up a psionic manifestation this morning for 20K. Orange salvage.
|
Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
I just came back recently from a 1 year break, and my biggest surprise was the market drought. I'm not sure what blueside looks like these days, but redside is very sad. I'd say current supply is less than 50% of what it was when I left. Even if you don't mind overpaying, there just isn't anything there to buy.
|
The only thing making this announcement even better is the thick frosting of schadenfreude I get from the complaints.
Quote:
I am right here. I saw the announcement yesterday. I am happy about this change overall as it means more people will buy going rogue now. More people means fewer possible ghost town servers and more possible expansions like GR in the future.
|
Originally Posted by PerfectStorm
I just want to know: Where is Evil Ryu?
|
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Really? Cause I've noticed that purples have gone down in price since the large-scale AE farming was squashed and regular mission farming was made easier.|
Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
It's the effect of the "last 5 sold" history. People see that the last two guys who sold a thing got 50 million for it, so SWEET! He wants 50 million for his, too. Obviously it's not an iron-clad rule ("I'd be fine with only 40 million." "Meh, I have enough. I'll post it for 10 inf and see what happens."), but in general bid histories don't trend downward. When the market was new, KB IOs averaged around 3 to 4 million. These days 10, 20, or 30 is common, or 100 if you want one in Zephyr form.
|
Things go up in price, things go down in price. If you pay attention to what a large portion of the player base is doing, you can pretty much figure out why.
Quote:
| I'd love to find the person(s) who arbitrarily decided that the price of anything really nice should be 100+ million, or 1+ billion in the case of certain PvP accessories. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by macskull
For example, let's say you want to buy a shiny new Gladiator's Armor: +3% defense IO. You check the market and see that the last 5 have all sold for 2 billion, but you're not worried because you have 2 billion. Now you look at the bidding/selling and see there are 500 bidders but none for sale and the last one to sell was three days ago. Now you realize that if you bid your 2 billion, you'll essentially be the 501st person in line, which means you will be waiting literal months, perhaps years (I'm not exaggerating) unless you get lucky.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
"Unfair", no. Indicative of unchecked, out-of-control inflation.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Erm, common Accuracy IOs go for 700,000 to a million? Really? The same ones you can buy at the crafting tables to craft? Are you sure you're not resorting to hyperbole here at all?
|
Quote:
| I love the idea of a market merge but as someone who has been happily frankenslotting all of my powers for the last 2 weeks Red Side calling the redside market "a complete drought" is a gross exaggeration. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
You weren't. You aren't. |
Originally Posted by Emberly
Before this glorious, shining day, I had every intention of moving any redside characters through the shift sneeded to get them out of the red market but keep access to the red content. No longer. Some might go grey but most will stay parked in the red. I am sure I am not alone.
|
In fact I will now move many of my heroes to my preferred red side content.
My joy at getting to keep mayhems, Television and patrons (yeah I like them a lot) plus have access to a larger market for all my characters is beyond my ability to describe.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The Red Side Market is a drought. There's some activity...I equate it to a Really tall Giraffe sinking in quicksand. That's how fast it moves.
I have four words to describe this...
On a personal note, this news means I can stop trying to divest myself of infamy, and start actively trading again on redside. That's pleasant.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
October 2009 vs Now|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Really? Cause I've noticed that purples have gone down in price since the large-scale AE farming was squashed and regular mission farming was made easier.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
"There are three basic factors in setting price: supply, demand and ability to pay."
There are two basic factors in setting price: Supply and Demand. "Ability to pay" is Demand. I must admit that this picture is out-dated. This picture is from when Positron made his "villains don't want to pay hero prices" comment. The concept of the picture remains relevant.  The simple question is... HOW THE **** ARE HEROES GOING TO DOMINATE THE MARKET?! Villains are paying more right now. If Heroes can pay more then why aren't they paying more against each other? *EDIT* If I need to make a really long post... again... that explains how Economics and Supply and Demand work I will. |
Quote:
Doesnt that mean that everyone has less influence, so therefore even though prices fall, items by proportion of available wealth are still just as expensive by comparison?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If the devs want prices to fall, they need to increase the number of ways we get rid of inf in the system.
|
In other words, if normally based on my habits I'd have 300 mil on a character and the IO I want is 80 mil, wont influence sinks mean that in future I've got 150 mil on me typically and the same IO is 40 mil? Isn't that the same thing then? If so, how does that help?
I'm just curious how that works.
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
A market merge means that blue side will no longer be 'stealing players' from redside who want to profit by the markets.
It is NOT a magic bullet that will solve all problems.
In order for players to retain control of the markets and for prices to drop, 2 things have to happen.
1: More actual physical behind the keyboard players need to use the markets (I suspect most players ignore the existence of the markets most of the time and that most goods that should end up on the market are deleted).
2: Players who use the markets must become more patient.
Here is my official prediction of DOOOOOOM 
: if these two things do not happen, people will be back to complaining about prices next year and demanding that the devs somehow code a solution that does not remove player control over pricing and transaction speeds yet also 'fixes the problem'. 'Total transparency' will probably become the next buzzword.
Whatever happens will not affect me personally: I use the markets very casually.
We'll see...
EDIT: I do have one thing I'd like to see coded into the system: the first time you delete a specific item, it actually goes on the market for some random price (and no listing fee).
People who usually delete items in the middle of play will supply the market and possibly make some extra cash, which will encourage them to use the markets more.
Actual market users will have ample opportunity to pull these extra items off the markets and delete them later. They will benefit through increased supply and unpredictability of the market.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I don't want to speak for UberGuy, but in my estimation you're correct - any general rise in price levels is a reflection of inflation, and not of real prices. In other words, if you had more inf sinks or lower the rate of influx of inf it would lower prices on the market, but it would not mean that players could afford more items - it just means nominal prices are lower. Players would not be "wealthier."|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Doesnt that mean that everyone has less influence, so therefore even though prices fall, items by proportion of available wealth are still just as expensive by comparison?
In other words, if normally based on my habits I'd have 300 mil on a character and the IO I want is 80 mil, wont influence sinks mean that in future I've got 150 mil on me typically and the same IO is 40 mil? Isn't that the same thing then? If so, how does that help? I'm just curious how that works. |
The reason that might be a good thing is because the general price level will never reach the inf cap, which would be awkward, and because it would be slightly easier for new players to buy things on the market without selling anything.
The first might be a big deal, I don't know. The second I don't think is a big deal at all - new players should be encouraged to sell things. So while I'm in favor of more inf sinks, I don't think it's critical.
I don't actually have data suggesting that the general price level has been rising, though. I'm inferring that from the fact that new inf is constantly being streamed into the economy. There might be other factors at play, and I'd be curious to see if anyone's kept track of the price level over the market's entire existence.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Quote:
Your ability to earn influence would not be diminished so you could earn the amount you need to buy item X faster if it's cheaper. Not from marketeering obviously, but from normal play.
|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Doesnt that mean that everyone has less influence, so therefore even though prices fall, items by proportion of available wealth are still just as expensive by comparison?
In other words, if normally based on my habits I'd have 300 mil on a character and the IO I want is 80 mil, wont influence sinks mean that in future I've got 150 mil on me typically and the same IO is 40 mil? Isn't that the same thing then? If so, how does that help? I'm just curious how that works. |
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
I just realized that although inf is streaming in constantly, so are drops. So it's not actually obvious to me that the price level should rise over time. I think it would depend on the drop rate vs the inf generation rate, and which one is faster.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Quote:
Indeed. It is a way to make constant farming less important to those who might not do it if prices weren't so high (and don't understand how marketeering works).
|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Your ability to earn influence would not be diminished so you could earn the amount you need to buy item X faster if it's cheaper. Not from marketeering obviously, but from normal play.
|
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Quote:
But if the ability to earn influence is not diminished, then deflation does not happen in the first place. The only way that more available influence can translate to greater buying power is if an infinite supply of items is always available at a fixed price - which is exactly what the vendors provide, and indeed the average player's buying power with respect to fixed price vendors has increased.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Your ability to earn influence would not be diminished so you could earn the amount you need to buy item X faster if it's cheaper. Not from marketeering obviously, but from normal play.
|
The only way to reduce inflation driven prices is to reduce the money supply. This can be done by directly reducing earning power, or by creating additional sinks for money that are at least as attractive as pursuing IOs (yet, unlike IOs, do not confer a permanent boost to earning power), but either way each player's "available money" must decrease or there will be no deflation.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
A cursory examination of the rewards for various activities will show that it is nearly impossible to do anything without generating inf. Drops, especially certain highly valued drops, are not awarded nearly as universally. This is a particular problem redside, and after a certain point scarcity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
|
Originally Posted by james_joyce
I just realized that although inf is streaming in constantly, so are drops. So it's not actually obvious to me that the price level should rise over time. I think it would depend on the drop rate vs the inf generation rate, and which one is faster.
|
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Not all prices are increasing at an insane rate. Which means that the stuff you sell isn't necessarily increasing in price along with the stuff you want to buy.|
Originally Posted by james_joyce
I just realized that although inf is streaming in constantly, so are drops. So it's not actually obvious to me that the price level should rise over time. I think it would depend on the drop rate vs the inf generation rate, and which one is faster.
|
The most expensive stuff does not drop nearly often enough to keep up with the amount of inf being generated. Not all people generate inf by doing activities that generate this stuff; AE farming generates no purples and probably next to no pool Cs, regular farming very rarely generates pool Cs, high-level activity generates fewer mid-level recipes*, people who save up merits to buy recipes outright don't generate pool Cs for the market.
*I would actually be very curious to see how many people roll merits in the 45-50 range, thinking that will give them the "best" recipes.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Then stop bidding more than "5-6 mil for a rare io salvage." You set the prices.
|
Originally Posted by PhoenixKnight_NA
if i may im not suggesting something that low. im suggesting something like 5-6 mil for a rare io salvage. something alot more reasonable, that goes for recipes and what not. sorry if i didint mkae that quite clear.
|
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Quote:
I dont disagree with anything you said SpittingTrashcan, just wanted to add some more info as to why this is a problem that needs to be fixed soon.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
But if the ability to earn influence is not diminished, then deflation does not happen in the first place. The only way that more available influence can translate to greater buying power is if an infinite supply of items is always available at a fixed price - which is exactly what the vendors provide, and indeed the average player's buying power with respect to fixed price vendors has increased.
The only way to reduce inflation driven prices is to reduce the money supply. This can be done by directly reducing earning power, or by creating additional sinks for money that are at least as attractive as pursuing IOs (yet, unlike IOs, do not confer a permanent boost to earning power), but either way each player's "available money" must decrease or there will be no deflation. |
Inflation in the real world is bad for a few reasons:
1. If you are a saver and the bank or "safe" savings rate does not match inflation which means you need to save money in more risky ways in order to keep the same amount of wealth or if you are lucky increase your wealth.
2. Variations in wage inflation does not match goods/services inflation, and thus your value of money is decreased relative to the value of the goods you want to buy.
Inflation in the COH market is bad for one reason:
1. We have an inf cap. And we are already selling a few items above that cap and thus a market outside of the COH market gets created for those items.
Thats it. We have no savings banks, stocks, or bonds, and our INF wages have increased instead of decreased and they are universal. But as more items move closer to the INF cap the more risk of turning into the DIABLO II barter like economy we get to. One in which nobody cares about INF anymore and only deals in game items.
Remember money is just a way to represent the value of something. The best kind of money is portable, and requires little/no overhead to physically manage it (and many other things that dont pertain to COH). At the point that each character can store more rare salvage than inf is close to the point in which INF becomes worthless and people start selling things for 10 rare magic salvage off market.
So the devs hopefully have a plan to do some of these things to help prevent a "hyperinflation" situation that drives people to the real black market.
Reduce the amount of inf a level 50 can make. Do they really need to make double inf?
Increase supply of goods.
Decrease demand of goods.
Increase the INF cap.
Decrease vendor buy rates.
Increase vendor sale rates.
All of the above have their downsides. Increase the INF cap actually has the least impact to the market but may have the most technical impact on data size and cost to NCSoft as a result.
If I was in control I would bite the bullet and remove the xp to inf that 50s get when GR is released. This will of course mean that anybody that has banked alot of INF has much more buying power than people with young 50s, but that problem will eventually go away. I would also (maybe 1% or less) increase the rate of sub level 50 pool A rare drops to help increase supply of non level 50 hard to find IOs and help reduce the cost. This one is tricky because too much supply means vendor trash which is bad. The last thing I would do is cut the vendor buy rate of common 50 IO recipies by 1/2 or more, but keep the vendor sell price the same.
If they solve this problem they also need to do an INF impact assesment for every new feature they add to the game in the future to ensure the feature adds no new INF earning potential to the players.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
RO Network
Quote:
I respectfully disagree. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The only way to reduce inflation driven prices is to reduce the money supply. This can be done by directly reducing earning power, or by creating additional sinks for money that are at least as attractive as pursuing IOs (yet, unlike IOs, do not confer a permanent boost to earning power), but either way each player's "available money" must decrease or there will be no deflation. |
Another way to reduce inflation is to increase the supply of the items being purchased.
Players can do this by simply placing on the market a larger percentage of the items that drop.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Quote:
I know this was said pages ago and isn't particularly relevant to the thread, but somewhere in the game lore it was specifically mentioned that Rome and Kuala Lumpur had similar amounts of fighting in the Rikti War as Paragon City did, and smaller battles happened in cities all over the world.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The world is being invaded by an alien race that only attacks one very small city on the coast of North America. Oh, and that little group of islands over there.
|
Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
question already answered!
James Joyce,
There are (at least) two other factors in the market coming to bear on prices other than inflation.
One is that there is more "spread" between casual gamers and power inf gamers (akin to the recent trend to an ever-greater divide between rich and poor in the US). That greatly inflates certain items that those with billions to spend will pay, but those more casual gamers will never have. The safety valve for this *should* be merits (leaving purples to rocket up), as even a casual gamer could get a super-shiney randomly or save up for one. Thing is, I don't think these recipes are making it to the market frequently enough to lower the price. Either people are using them, or selling them at the inflated price.
Second thing is that the market is not rational. Sometimes someone with a lot to spend will pay a hundred thousand for something they want "NAO" - and without sufficient down price pressure that becomes the new normal price, even if it doesn't match supply and demand. On the other hand, sometimes people say to themselves, "There is no way I am going to pay that much for that piece of common salvage!" and the price can be artificially low compared to the demand.
So it is a very chaotic system, made more so by very limited market information and very small market sizes.
I just came back recently from a 1 year break, and my biggest surprise was the market drought. I'm not sure what blueside looks like these days, but redside is very sad. I'd say current supply is less than 50% of what it was when I left. Even if you don't mind overpaying, there just isn't anything there to buy.