No, we don't "need a healer!"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-01 05:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
My AM message on my Rad/Sonic defender, Sound of Awesome, I normally use 1 time at the begining of a mish once everyone is in the door.
Casting AM on myself in a few seconds. Get close if you want to bathe in my awesomeness.
After that I just do my best to hit everyone as often as I can when it comes up again.
Hi, Traps / DP defender player here, on Freedom. Name's Ebon Comet.
Got my first "you a healer? we need one" last night as I had my flag up seeking for anything.
"No, traps def"
"oh lol. no thanks gl"
Good times. I rolled the first half of posi and then all of synapse with great teams who didn't mind that I was a debuffer and went from 1-24 in 1 wknd of fun teams in general. I guess it had to happen, but still I wasn't too bugged about it and proceeded to make the streets of croatoa safer by making lots of witches and pumpkins helplessly gag and run around with bleeding feet.
The whole "need a healer" is very common with me. Even though my dark/dark only has one heal, I get spammed if I don't do it enough. Once a blaster ran into the middle of a mob, died, then blamed me for not healing him. I explained that it's an AoE heal so he needs to be close. His response was a "Should of been close then."
Coming from Guild Wars, I can understand the healer needs. Monks are a tasty treat in teams on it. I also played another MMORPG where there was a Monk class (not called that, can't remember the name) and if you didn't take the Healing path, you were trolled, flamed and shunned by anyone.
These are also the reasons I refuse to roll an Empath. The constant shouts for not enough heals or auras would kill me, does enough on my kin (don't get me started on SB ._.)
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That is a team you dont want to join. Saying you need a healer normally means "we died so much we need someone to stop that". I only play shield type defenders and I have faced the discrimination before but I just tell myself they arnt the type of people I want to team with anyways.
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Originally Posted by Red Pirate Boggarts
Got my first "you a healer? we need one" last night as I had my flag up seeking for anything.
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Maybe playing an MM with FF has converted me to the "dark side," but I don't get this statement. I simply don't have enough powers to be using things outside of my personal attacks when things are recharging or NOT needing to be bubbled.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Since it was an MM, I doubt the rez power was helping much unless he was using his personal attacks, which is just silly for an MM.
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One of the things that always gets me about the " healer " issue is simply that so many teams wont even TRY to do anything without a healer. Many times a healer is simply a safety blanket or my greatest fear, a license to play wild and loose because there is a healer.
The other thing i cant stand is the "micromanaging mother" healer. I was on a team with my level 50 Rad/Mental Blaster and I was the only blaster on the team. The healer starts in with this.. Ill keep an eye on the blaster blah blah blah.. make sure you dont get too far away.. yadda yadda.. after a few minutes of that crap I was like..
Look. I dont need you.. Ive played this guy to level 50 so I know what I am doing. Your RA's. Ive got Drain Psyche I can heal and buff myself. Plus i have trays full of green and blues.. If I die.. Ive got wakies.. If Im stunned Ive got break frees and because Im Rad/Mental I can STILL throw out three ranged attacks if im stunned or held..
So please stop worrying about me the poor lil old blaster and please stand back as I go kill that whole mob over there with Build Up Aim. Irradiate, Psychic Shockwave and THEN my Nuke..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Last night ITF we almost would have failed because of people wanting a healer... or should I say empath...
We had 2 doms, 1 tanker, 1 troller, 2 mm's, 2 scrapp
We had a kin heal, a dark heal, and a healing spirit tree... The leader kept saying he wanted an empath. My response was.. "If you get an empath in this team the damage output would go below what we need to defeat the end boss and we have three heals already! Are you afraid to die?!" And this was not even on a 'Master of...' attempt.
We barely managed in damage output as we where. And that was including a kin. Switching a scrapper for an empath in this setup would have failed the ITF!
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Force bolt, provoke, repulsion bomb, provoke, patron immob, and provoke. You should have plenty to do.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Maybe playing an MM with FF has converted me to the "dark side," but I don't get this statement. I simply don't have enough powers to be using things outside of my personal attacks when things are recharging or NOT needing to be bubbled.
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But seriously, an FF mastermind I would understand taking the personal attacks. A /pain mastermind, however, has enough to do.
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BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ wrong! I have DM on several of my MMs. I use it constantly for the outstanding disorient and slow. I DONT wait for people to die and haul it out once is a while in fact anyone playing with me better have some awakes on them IF they die because the chances are it won't be recharged and available. Now admittedly in all the other cases you are correct but the question is are you building a "Team Support" character or not? While the arguemnt goes on and on end on the fact is even the best of teams can make a mistake that results in too many mobs aggroed and players end up face down on the floor so if you team having heals and a rez do support them. YES people can, and most do, carry awake but even a tier 3 awake still leaves you with no end. A REZ from any of the powersets in question brings the teammate back at full strenth, unstunned and ready to battle again. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Because in all of those cases someone needs to die for them to work. I'd much rather take a power that I can use whenever I want and that will (hopefully) make the team better to prevent deaths rather than one that only works when people are dying.
The others benefit from being slotted, but they don't need them to be effective. |
If you solo constantly.. skip it but if you team it's a useful tool that SUPPORTS the team. NOT one that hopefully gets used a lot but still good to have. If you solo and team try a dual build like I do. One build has the Rez along with many other things that help my teammates and the other skips things that don't help ME at all and allows me to add other things that increase my attacks, my defenses or whatever.
Now here is my theory as to why the game has shifted away from desiring defenders and controller that heal and no it has very little to do with the entire player base suddenly discovering the JOY of buff/debuff since those were always around. Patrol XP changed the game completely. Suddenly when someone died they discovered hey I didn't go into debt the patrol XP saved me! Word spread like wildfire soon the attitude became "Why should I waste a slot on my team for an Empath when my patrol xp will wipe out debt? Even if I go to bed with debt by the time I wake up and go to work or school it will all be gone!" That statement is totally true but here is what I don't understand.
Patrol XP is also increasing the amount of XP and Influence/Infamy you earn so the longer it lasts the more you make and the faster you level. If you are smart and also camp out at night in the Police station you can also build up additional XP bonuses there.. Patrol xp gives you a 50% boost in XP and a seasoned law Enforcer can add an additional 25% for as long as two hours. That's a minimum of 2 hours of play time where your earn 175% of what is normal for XP and Influence .. the closest thing to a constant double XP weekend you will find in the game. When you die and your patrol XP absorbs the debt but it uses up the amount of XP you would have had to earn back and decreases the amount of time you get that 50% bonus.
With all the other ways players use to increase the amount of XP they earn so they can level faster, legal and the ones NC Soft considers illegal (ie farming PL etc), why this area became a rallying cry for Healing sucks and we don't need your kind here I have no idea. The vast majority of the player base is more mature and you'd think they understood simple math. 175% = 75% more than I would normally get.. Mmm Good! Prior to this occurring when I logged on an EMP Defended or my Ill/Emp Controller I had times I was still loading and already had tells or blind invites to team because no one wanted to DIE and have to spend the next ??? working off debt and earning 50% of the XP they normally would. Now I see open discussion on Global channels I belong to about how Empathy suck and who needs a healer anyway. Well first of all I have never considered any character I had, troller or fender, to BE A HEALOR. I take and use every buff/debuff available and take and enhance my attacks. My feeling always has been the best defense is a good offense and while the damage even a well enhanced defender does is less than a scrapper or blaster can do DAMAGE IS DAMAGE. When all the bad guys are face down on the floor and not moving the need to heal, buff or debuff ends so I'll take all the damage I can get from anyone and everyone.
No team NEEDS a healer.. but then again no "good" team needs a tanker or a KIN or any of the other FOTM powersets that a lot of leaders decide they simply have to have to survive and do well. All you need is 8 good players that understand their powers and the game and adapt their strategy to make it work. I did a Citadel TF with 7 blasters and 1 Defender (yes it was an EMP). The team leader was a little concerned that we had a LOT of "squishies" and not much healing. We decided to try it and moved through missions with ease.. the damage output was so high nothing lasted long enough to cause a team wipe. I participated in an ALL CONTROLLER Katy Hannon TF and we finished in 19 minutes and 1 second... no tank, no scrapper, no blasters .. Just a ton of buffs, debuffs, HEALS, holds, immobs, slows, etc that drove the Cabal and Redcaps insane. I've played on PUG radio mission teams that had nothing but Defenders and Controller that did the same thing. "They can't hit us, we are hitting them a lot easier, they can't move and we are healing faster than they can hurt us. WE ROCK!"
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Patrol XP was added to encourage players to make alternate characters. Not to help with debt.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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This is easy to solve I say lets go (I play scrappers) and I get in the mission I usally beat the tanks to the bob and just killing things in my wake basically I just push the pace and the speed until they cry uncle. They forget about the healer real quick. I also love to make comments when i am looking at the groups like man I love storm because I do I love freezing rain that power just flat out rocks. I give the other secondary props I never say anything about empathy.
It is more to change the mindsets of the pugs that i do play on people like we need I go we do not need a thing.
Heck I have ran all scrapper itf and stf healer not needed
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Notice that one of those you won't have until 40+, three are the same power, and another one won't be available until after 35. I think I see a lot of downtime pre-35, and spamming [Provoke] over and over again (while certainly not stupid) doesn't feel like one is doing much. Maybe that's just me.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Force bolt, provoke, repulsion bomb, provoke, patron immob, and provoke. You should have plenty to do
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
A /pain mastermind, however, has enough to do.
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My first 50 was Taxibot Sara2.0 and ILL/Emp Controller. I try to monitor my team mates at all times and never play without the team list showing. I do NOT believe in just putting healing Aura on Auto and sitting back because "My job is done". Fort is double slotted for recharge and I can use it about every 35-36 seconds so I am constantly going down the list giving it out as fast as possible CM recharges so fast I always make sure everyone gets a does and the two Buff Aura I fire off as they recharge. Now Illusion doesn't have a LOT of attacks but even on large teams I will Confuse as fast as possible.. hey if they are confused and battling one another they aren't damaging MY team before they die thay are damaging their own. If someone get into trouble I use Heal other and if its a messy battle and I see a number of players heal bar dipping I will fire off my Healing Aura.. better to cure a little damage now than a LOT a little later. Like I said i don't keep that Aura going constantly because frankly its as waste of END.. If everyone is at 95-100% of full health why amd I healing when I could be attacking? I DO take the REZ and Yes I realize that unless someone dies its useless but if someone dies while we are battling the AV do you want them laying there useless or back in action helping take down the beast NOW? I can afford to "waste", if that's your opinion of Rez, a power to ensure they can.
I am proud of the badges I have earned for healing they signify a lot of hours having fun on teams and keeping my team mates in the fight but if they gave out badges for buffing I'd have just as many if not more. I am NOT a healer I am a Controller I will provide support with my Empathy, Radiation, Thermal, or Kin powerset and provide as much damage and control as my other has to offer. And YES I do have Defenders or Controller that use all of those along with DM. I have battled every GM in game, For the life of me one day I will figure out with AV I missed in Maria's set (I have 12 of 13) and complete that badge requirement LOL As a Taxibot, prior to Radio mission, I hung out in the Hollows and TPOed, Healed and Buffed countless low level players trying to get past Dave Wncott's suicide missions (10 Outcast and 10 Trolls back when the mob sizes were way to large to solo for many ATs) and I don't recall a single player telling me they didn't appreciate or need my "heals". No team needs a healer but a Controller or Defender that KNOWS how to use their powersets and provides whatever support is needed at the time (heals. buffs or both) can make things run a whole lot smoother.
Does that make sense? Oh I also have TWO 50 level Plant/Rads so if anyone wants a team mate that nails everything to the floor and has them glowing green while they take damage let me know. :-D
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Jam I know WHY it was created I am just stating a trend I have seen on teams I have joined. They don't seem to care about Debt like people used to because patrol XP will eat it up anyway. True and I myself have gone to bed with debt knowing that by the time I relog it will have disappeared. All I am saying is why WASTE it eliminating debt when if NO ONE dies it lets you level faster? Its been mentioned here yeah no team needs a healer but having one, a GOOD one, is not a BAD thing and I have seen Global chat conversations on Virtue where they made it sound like Empathy was the WORST powerset imaginable and they would never take and EMP on any team they ran. lol The thought always runs through my head fine.. My Ill/Emp has Recall Friend and Superior Invisibilty have fun on that TF without a Stealther ... I'll be over here helping a team that does appreciate what I have to offer.
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Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Patrol XP was added to encourage players to make alternate characters. Not to help with debt.
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�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
So when I had a Ta/Archery Defender, I was the only defender on the team, and someone asked where the heals were, So I said "Sorry, I don't have the Heal Arrow yet."
Personally I've never looked a for a healer, and empath is actually the last set I look at when seeking a defender.
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I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm trying to say that between force bolt and provoke you could be pretty constantly active since they both recharge fairly quickly. Force field secondary, life drain from necromancy, and demon -res whip attacks are pretty much the only reasons I could justify taking the personal attacks.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Notice that one of those you won't have until 40+, three are the same power, and another one won't be available until after 35. I think I see a lot of downtime pre-35, and spamming [Provoke] over and over again (while certainly not stupid) doesn't feel like one is doing much. Maybe that's just me.
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Mastermind personal attacks do piddly damage as is, and the damage per endurance is simply atrocious. I'd suggest slotting the devastation hold procs, or slotting for the attack's debuffs. Make the attacks do something, you know?
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Random tell: healer?
-->Random tell: No, controller
years and years ago healers were "needed" more often. People didn't have all those fun IOs and fancy builds. Also when the game population was 50% noobs who aggro'd everything in sight. Now most teams know what they are doing and in later lvls when the baddies get better at face-planting us, we all use IOs to make that less an issue. So healers are now overrated... but I still smile when my team has one.
One side note: When tanking from time to time a team will want me to herd. I love herding ,but it goes alot smoother if I get a few heals. Give me a kin and I'll heard to the taunt cap anytime.
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Not to mention, there are a few places where Empaths are necessary. Hami raids. Masters of ____ TF. I am sure you could probably do those things without, but they would be a lot more painful. For that matter, a tank isnt necessary for hami.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The other messages that are ingrained in our community are "Heals are never useful" and "You should go out of your way to avoid calling Empathy a 'healing' set. I don't think 'radical action' is the solution to anything though. It just entrenches people's position.
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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Discipline priest in wow comes close. Decent offense, good heals, power word shield is a good parallel for fortitude. One of the odd things I have always had a problem with is the number of powers in COX that do absolutely nothing for the caster.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
To be fair, Empathy actually has at least seven "healing" powers, at least as far as general MMO thinking goes. Adrenalin Boost and Regeneration Aura are essentially Heal over Time powers, which in most MMOs are counted as heals rather than buffs. Sure Adrenalin Boost does more than just boost regen, but to the average MMO player anything that makes you get health back faster than you normally would is a "heal". Breaking status effects (Clear Mind) is also something "healer" classes normally do, as is rezzing and often mana (endurance) recovery. Really, the only difference between Empathy and a standard MMO "healer" is Fortitude... most healers have no offensive buffs, those are more likely to be found on hybrids (Paladins, etc...), though in some games they do.
I'm not saying that we need "healers" in CoX teams... our buffs are far stronger than what most MMOs allow and so are our debuffs. But the fact is that if you replaced Fortitude with a PBAoE resist buff and renamed Empaths "Clerics" they'd fit in perfectly in a generic fantasy MMO. And they'd be healers.  Of course that's not counting the Empath's other power set... in fantasy MMOs a healer usually has mez powers, like a Mind / Empathy Controller, and really terrible offense. Again, like a Mind / Empathy Controller. They don't generally start blasting things when they get bored of healing (at least not for enough damage to notice)... which is why I'd much rather play an Empathy Defender than a Cleric.  |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
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You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Mind is never going to be a damaging Controller set, but saying it has no damage is a little extreme. Mix some Dam/Mez HOs and three Acc/Dam or Hold/Rech IOs in Mesmerize and Dominate, and you've got some decent singletarget Psi damage. Heck, the duration on Mesmerize is so long as is, I'd not even bother slotting it for Sleeps. Just go damage for that, even early on.
Dominate > max Damage Mesmerize = roughly 180 Psionic damage at level 50. Slow? Yeah, but then you can lockdown +4s easily, and a lot of stuff can't resist that 180 damage. So "slow" is kinda relative, I guess. Many Lethal damage defenders seem slower than a Psi Controller, against +4 highlevel critters. Just gotta play to a set's strengths!
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
My build has and always will be a pure-empath build. The toon only has two attacks for example, the rest is all about healing and buffing.
While I must say that this toon is my main character, there was this discussion a while back. And yes, it is now safe to say that maybe a few years ago a Empath was requested for nearly every team out there. However now.. that doesn't seem to be the case. In a sense the Empathy set is somewhat of a dieing thing now.
They may not be needed anymore, but they will always be there in their small numbers to help when requested.
Healing/Empathy is what I do, and enjoy.
TF's are always wanting such a thing to assist, so i'll continue to use NG. ^^
In all honesty, this type of thread bothers me. I have a couple Defenders/Healers, and I enjoy playing them. It's fine if you dont look for one, or feel the need for one - but why start a thread basically calling them useless ?? The same can be said for every last character...
Tanks are useless - a team with a good scrapper (who's been fort'd) and a troller who knows what there doing eliminates the need for anymore tanks
Controllers are a wasted roll -A good tank is gonna hold the enemy and aggro, so whats the point of a troller ??
Blasters are a newbies way of getting in the fight - Whats the real point of a blaster ? Scrappers have great DPS, and defenders have long range attacks, so why have one ?
Scrappers are just tank wannabes - Scrappers do nothing but run in where they shouldnt anyway. All a team needs is a good tank and a couple blasters, and a scrapper becomes a wasted spot on a team
There is not one type of character that is absolutely necessary to any team, so why start a movement to bash a character that alot of longtime players enjoy playing ??
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This kinda response bothers me. |
Originally Posted by OldSkoolNWA
In all honesty, this type of thread bothers me. I have a couple Defenders/Healers, and I enjoy playing them. It's fine if you dont look for one, or feel the need for one - but why start a thread basically calling them useless ?? The same can be said for every last character...
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Please, tell me how you unlocked this "healer" AT. Is it a secret epic unlocked at lvl 60?
Next thing we know people are gonna start asking what the best "warrior" class is.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Except maybe a kin. I mean, they're nice and all. Just, I dunno, never was a big fan of 'em. The normal spawns don't last long enough and Fulcrum shift loses effectiveness against the AV. Ok, so it's still better than an empath. -regen and -damage is great, but still, want moar debuffs!
I just keep going and when AM is up, put myself in the best spot to tag as many people as possible with it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.