No, we don't "need a healer!"


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Yes it is. But don't twist my meaning. I said it doesn't completely protect you, and it doesn't. It's +15% defense, around +30% enhanced at 50 and possibly more if Power Boosted. It's awesome. But the discussion was about how many powers Empathy has that "prevent damage," and the answer is one.
The discussion was never about how many powers Empathy has to prevent damage.

My two statements were that Empathy is not a healing set and I would rather prevent damage than heal it.

That's a way of saying I'd rather have a FF or a Cold defender than an Empathy one.


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Posted

I'll /third the "if you're coming from another MMO, you've got to get the 'need a healer' knocked out of your mindset" idea. I recently let Aion expire (waiting for 1.9, rather tired of the kinah chase, etc.) and frankly I started to *hate* playing my cleric there. Not only do the heals take way too damn long, but add heal aggro (I *hate* that - I can strip aggro from a gladiator by healing them) and the fact that, unless we're dealing with utter wimp enemies, if I do anything BUT heal or buff it seems that someone's going to be dead, or close to it, soon. (Don't get me started on having a camp of elites right outside Morheim's gates... when you're 13-20.) I'm *extremely* thankful COH isn't like that.

What bugs me most about the whole "healing" thing in here, though, is that people will concentrate on it - even on non-emps - and just not bother to learn how big of an impact the rest of their powers can have. I don't just mean the "pure emp, take no attacks, add medicine pool" types. I mean the Kinetics that do nothing but transfusion and, later, transferrence pretty much. Or the rad with nothing but mutation and the healing aura. Or the thermal that won't take the shields - or much of anything else, just the heals and rez.

There are times it's handy, yes. Early game, doing a sewer run? Sure. Keep that health up. Hami raid? Absolutely. But that's a tiny, tiny part of the game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
"Empathy has nine powers. Only three heal."
To be fair, Empathy actually has at least seven "healing" powers, at least as far as general MMO thinking goes. Adrenalin Boost and Regeneration Aura are essentially Heal over Time powers, which in most MMOs are counted as heals rather than buffs. Sure Adrenalin Boost does more than just boost regen, but to the average MMO player anything that makes you get health back faster than you normally would is a "heal". Breaking status effects (Clear Mind) is also something "healer" classes normally do, as is rezzing and often mana (endurance) recovery. Really, the only difference between Empathy and a standard MMO "healer" is Fortitude... most healers have no offensive buffs, those are more likely to be found on hybrids (Paladins, etc...), though in some games they do.

I'm not saying that we need "healers" in CoX teams... our buffs are far stronger than what most MMOs allow and so are our debuffs. But the fact is that if you replaced Fortitude with a PBAoE resist buff and renamed Empaths "Clerics" they'd fit in perfectly in a generic fantasy MMO. And they'd be healers.

Of course that's not counting the Empath's other power set... in fantasy MMOs a healer usually has mez powers, like a Mind / Empathy Controller, and really terrible offense. Again, like a Mind / Empathy Controller. They don't generally start blasting things when they get bored of healing (at least not for enough damage to notice)... which is why I'd much rather play an Empathy Defender than a Cleric.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
The discussion was never about how many powers Empathy has to prevent damage.

My two statements were that Empathy is not a healing set and I would rather prevent damage than heal it.

That's a way of saying I'd rather have a FF or a Cold defender than an Empathy one.

Really? Please explain, because you are the person I was responding to. Specifically:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
My two most used lines with regards to "healers":

"Empathy has nine powers. Only three heal."

"I would rather prevent damage than heal it."


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Really? Please explain, because you are the person I was responding to. Specifically:
Sure, I'll explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
My two statements were that Empathy is not a healing set and I would rather prevent damage than heal it.

That's a way of saying I'd rather have a FF or a Cold defender than an Empathy one.
The two statements of mine were not related to each other. Never did I say that I wanted an empath that only prevents damage. Reading comprehension. Try it sometime.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Sure, I'll explain.



The two statements of mine were not related to each other. Never did I say that I wanted an empath that only prevents damage. Reading comprehension. Try it sometime.

I'm not interested in getting into a drag-out fight with you. If your two "most favorite things to say to healers" are unrelated to healing and to each other, the problem is not my ability to read.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerX View Post
To be fair, Empathy actually has at least seven "healing" powers, at least as far as general MMO thinking goes. Adrenalin Boost and Regeneration Aura are essentially Heal over Time powers, which in most MMOs are counted as heals rather than buffs. Sure Adrenalin Boost does more than just boost regen, but to the average MMO player anything that makes you get health back faster than you normally would is a "heal". Breaking status effects (Clear Mind) is also something "healer" classes normally do, as is rezzing and often mana (endurance) recovery. Really, the only difference between Empathy and a standard MMO "healer" is Fortitude... most healers have no offensive buffs, those are more likely to be found on hybrids (Paladins, etc...), though in some games they do.

I'm not saying that we need "healers" in CoX teams... our buffs are far stronger than what most MMOs allow and so are our debuffs. But the fact is that if you replaced Fortitude with a PBAoE resist buff and renamed Empaths "Clerics" they'd fit in perfectly in a generic fantasy MMO. And they'd be healers.

Of course that's not counting the Empath's other power set... in fantasy MMOs a healer usually has mez powers, like a Mind / Empathy Controller, and really terrible offense. Again, like a Mind / Empathy Controller. They don't generally start blasting things when they get bored of healing (at least not for enough damage to notice)... which is why I'd much rather play an Empathy Defender than a Cleric.

I realize I'm way past my post-limit with this comment, so I'll take a breather in a bit and let some other folks weigh in. I agree with most of what you posted, just wanted to say that Mind Control does decent damage and should be able to solo missions easily from level one--probably more easily than many Empathy Defenders, anyway.

Ice Control/Empathy on the other hand...


 

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Rorri said

Quote:
I enjoy having to use my quick twitch reflexes to heal the team like I do in other MMOs.
The best thing about this game is that if you lose, the OTHER guy gets the debt!

Whenever Wireframe Monkey rezzed someone and they thanked me [hey, we needed the healing badge for our SG] I always felt like yelling at them. "What sort of abusive relationships are you coming out of? I stood there and let you die and you THANKED me?"

... can you tell my first Defender was force fields?


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Given the penalty for death in this game (or lack thereof)... Not only do I not care if we have a healer. I don't care if I run out of hitpoints.


I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I'm not interested in getting into a drag-out fight with you. If your two "most favorite things to say to healers" are unrelated to healing and to each other, the problem is not my ability to read.
You're putting words in my keyboard again. I never said they weren't related to healing.

The two statements are related to healing.

The two statements are not related to each other.

The first one says "Empathy is not a healing set. Calling it a healing set is discounting its ability to buff.

The second one says "Given the choice between someone who can heal really well and someone who can prevent damage really well, I'll take the one who can prevent damage."

I also never said they were things said to healers. They were said about healers. Normally to team leaders who seem to think they need a healer.

Learn to read.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Ice Control/Empathy on the other hand...
I solo quite effectively as an Ice/Emp, thanks. Frostie puts out a pretty respectable amount of damage when he gets AB+Fort+RA+ReA.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Learn to read.

Not taking the bait this time. If you really want to continue this line of communication please send me an email message. I don't think anyone else is interested in our personal conflict.


 

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Originally Posted by TygerTyger View Post
Last night, sent out a "((Level 10 blaster, looking for a team))" broadcast, and accepted an invite a second or two later. What I didn't think to check was the name of the invitee. It was the same fellow who'd been spamming a "need a healer" on his broadcast team call.
The lowbie game sometimes teaches the wrong lessons. It (also) creates timid Tankers; lowbie Tankers learn they go splat without the team right behind them.

HP loss downtime is more common in the lowbie levels. Downtime breaks PuGs. An AoE hit point replacer removes HP loss downtime. (Later, an unslotted Aid Other would be enough.)

One scanner mission without an AoE hit point replacer: team did well, but our HP bars were always not quite full. A Whappen thinks "we're not doing well", and maybe the other teammates did, too; the team broke up after that mission.


(I've played Force Fields with SOs. I did take Aid Other. Reaching for Aid Other usually meant "you're late rebubbling".)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
<thwaaannnngggg>
*HEEEEAAL*!
...
Fwe-fwee-fweeoou.


Meben, 38 Kat/SR NPK Stalker (Defiant)

 

Posted

I like having healing powers in the party. But it falls into the class of "I like various helpful powers" in the party. The one class of power truly needed is damage to defeat the foes. Every other class of power is very useful but not specifically needed. And there are various ways to achieve the effect of team "damage mitigation". Be it tanking, debuffing, mezzing, healing, etc...


@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.

 

Posted

To be honest, these days I see more "we need a kin". And it's just as wrong. Yes, even if you're a Stone tank, you still don't need a kin....


 

Posted

Maybe I'm wrong because I tend to solo more than group, but my experience is that most players are reasonably aware that you don't need any one archetype to have a successful team - you get the occasional exception who sticks in your memory, but most of the people I've teamed with have figured this out, IMO.

I'm perverse; I relish the exceptions, since when you have a team leader who is moaning for a healer and no one else is contradicting them, there's a strong possibility you're joining what looks to be a really bad PUG. And really bad PUGs tend to be very entertaining for me.


 

Posted

You don't NEED a healer. You want a healer. An empath on a team makes life easier. Especially in certain lvl ranges. The last time i logged my Empath i immediately got invited to a team one tank and three blasters fighting Ritki the blasters were sleeping the entire time and the tank was exhausted. CM and heal other were the only two powers i used, we steam rolled the mish. A couple mishes later the tank left. The blasters were going to quit, i told them go go go i will keep you alive. CM and heal other we didnt even slow down. CM and heal other and AB, yes you dont a healer, yes you want an Empath.


 

Posted

Empaths are very adaptable. So long as you keep a few break frees on you, it's very hard for them NOT to turn even a mediocre team into something that can get up some really good speed.
Empathy has one of most oddly useful buffs in game for late level blueside; Adrenalin Boost. Why odd? Well..I tend to save it instead of using it, when on a team with a Blaster with a nuke. Or a Kheldian with a nuke. Why? Because AB coutners nuke crash. Its that powerful, it beats the nukes -recovery debuff.

Fortitude slapped on pretty much anyone makes a difference, and the two auras let you blast with abandon.
Empaths aren't healers, and you're right, you DONT need a healer. Empaths are high grade buffers. I love playing my Empath/Psi fender with friends, because she turns tough characters into nigh unstoppable ones


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
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Posted

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Originally Posted by MaxLongstreet View Post
I'm perverse; I relish the exceptions, since when you have a team leader who is moaning for a healer and no one else is contradicting them, there's a strong possibility you're joining what looks to be a really bad PUG. And really bad PUGs tend to be very entertaining for me.
I heartily agree. They can be a refreshing challenge to the usual easy game played with skilled players running min/maxed builds. I need to PUG more...


@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Yes it is. But don't twist my meaning. I said it doesn't completely protect you, and it doesn't. It's +15% defense, around +30% enhanced at 50 and possibly more if Power Boosted. It's awesome. But the discussion was about how many powers Empathy has that "prevent damage," and the answer is one.
First, I did not twist your meaning. You said that Fort does not really prevent damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It has one power that "prevents" damage, but even then not really (base +15% Defense on a Defender).
I accept that you want to take that statement back and change it. I would if I said it.

Second, while not direct damage mitigation, Clear Mind will often prevent massive amounts of damage when used proactively. Finally, the offensive nature of the buffs in Fort, Recovery Aura, and Adrenalin Boost can also go a long way towards preventing damage, but are also not direct mitigation.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TygerTyger View Post
OK, I know this issue has been done to death... but c'mon people, you don't need a "healer" (if such a thing even exists in CoX) to have an effective team. I've been playing here for a while now, and this myth is still plaguing my playtime.

Last night, sent out a "((Level 10 blaster, looking for a team))" broadcast, and accepted an invite a second or two later. What I didn't think to check was the name of the invitee. It was the same fellow who'd been spamming a "need a healer" on his broadcast team call. I thought I'd give it a go anyway, as time was limited.

We gathered (the six of us that were in the team) and waited at the entrance to the mission (radio mission). After the leader had us wait an additional five to ten minutes, repeatedly spamming his "need a healer", I finally broke down.

Me: "Newsflash mate, we don't need a healer."
Me: "A "healer" would be handy, but hardly necessary."
Leader: "Hey newsboy, we do. Trust me, we'll all die without one."
Me: "OK, who's ready to go, lets get in there."

The team followed me in to the mission (a blend of scrappers and blasters with a tank) and we proceeded to demolish three missions in a row. Dings were heard everywhere. We did have a couple of folks faceplant, but that was mostly due to really bad playing (party got split and the two groups tried to take on large spawns... bad idea) and fun was had throughout the land.

When I left after the third mission, I got three tells, all of which thanked me for telling the leader we didn't need a healer, and asking to friend me.

I also got a tell from the leader, smugly noting the faceplants and telling me none of them would have happened if we'd had a "healer"...

I had to log off before I gave him a piece of my mind (and there is very little of it left after all the pieces I have handed out previously!) but I couldn't believe this is still prevalent in this game.

Where does this myth come from, that you "need" certain things in order to play? And why is it always a "healer" that people are looking for? I assume that means an Empath defender or controller, but why is that seen as so great? For the record, I have a Ill/Emp at level 40, and an Emp/NRG in the late 30s, so I do know the sets can be helpful.... but they are not the be all and end all of this bloody game!

Grrr.... taking deep and meditative breaths now....
Well, iv faced this issue alot over the years that iv played off and on.It goes far beyond just my Defenders or Controllers.

I still catch flak because I play Resistance Tankers, and none healing Defenders.I was added to a team recently with my Dark/Dark Defender and I was sent a tell, "Sorry, but we need a healer.", and was kicked right after.

I acctually struggled with this one just to hold back the laughter.A Dark/Dark gives out the biggest and constant green numbers everyone belives they must have to play this game.My Dark Servant alone spams 399 HP AoE, and so does my Defender.Thats almost 800 HP every cast cycle between my self and my pet (Only level 37 right now).Not that those heals are really relied on, considering I floor the bad guys ability to hit anything with this Defender, effectivly soft capping the team.

Its rather annoying when a team your in hunts for 30 minutes for a Empathy/No Attacks Defender build, just to give the props to that player when he contributes a multitude less then a well play Dark/Dark brings to the table.

Heck, My Dark can even Tank and hold agro on a 8 man team for the duration.All the way upto a +2 con ranking.

People have issues beliving in anything but a rehashed Tanker needs to lead, Healer must be found games that plague the net.Dont exspect it to change any time soon.

Iv combated the situation by making builds of all ATs that can tank, and solo large 8 man missions by them selves.So when I acctually do join a team, theres no issue.That and I tend to ignore the cries for a healer and try to show the team what a good debuffer can do without heals.

Some times people notice and add me to friends to team with me again later, others say nothing, and the rest, well, they commonly have some thing smug to say or something ugly to say about my lack of a heal other button.

Pointing out how they didnt die because of the debuffs you shoveled out is a mute point to 95% of the people you team with.They dont care, and wont be paying attention.

Iv learned to ignore it.


 

Posted

You're right, you don't need any one thing to be successful in this game, healers being right at the top of the list, but in all fairness if you didn't like the way the team was being run, you should have formed your own team rather than doing what you did. If he formed the team, and he wanted a healer, he's entitled to that, just as you are entitled to go form a team without one (and being just as successful).

You know, people who form teams are doing you, me and the whole game a favor by doing so. They are providing a service, and they are the very backbone of the game. Yet I hear precious little in the way of gratitude for this, but plenty of complaints.

If you want a team to be run in a particular way, form your own and run it that way. If you're on someone else's team, try to be respectful of their wishes, and if you just don't like playing the way they like to play, politely bow out and form and run a team the way you want.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Yes it is. But don't twist my meaning. I said it doesn't completely protect you, and it doesn't. It's +15% defense, around +30% enhanced at 50 and possibly more if Power Boosted.
Defense enhancement is schedule B, so it would be ~22.5% after enhancement, not ~30% (unless you're exploiting defense debuff HOs). Normal slotting plus Power Build Up would be ~37%. (~44% with debuff HOs and PBU)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey View Post
Given the penalty for death in this game (or lack thereof)... Not only do I not care if we have a healer. I don't care if I run out of hitpoints.
I only really care about hitpoint loss if (1) we're unable to defeat the target before everyone on the team runs out of HP/before everyone gets back from the hospital, or (2) people are dying so often that it's significantly slowing us down.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonslay View Post
You don't NEED a healer. You want a healer. An empath on a team makes life easier. Especially in certain lvl ranges. The last time i logged my Empath i immediately got invited to a team one tank and three blasters fighting Ritki the blasters were sleeping the entire time and the tank was exhausted. CM and heal other were the only two powers i used, we steam rolled the mish. A couple mishes later the tank left. The blasters were going to quit, i told them go go go i will keep you alive. CM and heal other we didnt even slow down. CM and heal other and AB, yes you dont a healer, yes you want an Empath.
I'd still disagree with the idea that you should want a "healer", or indeed an empath specifically. You want a defender in general. Or even a controller. If well built and played, any defender (with the possible exception of TA) could do this to a team, whether they can heal or not.

Now, I'm not saying Empaths are bad by any means: they're not, a well played one is great to have, but the same can be said of a Rad or a Dark, or a Storm or a FF or so on. To look for a specific powerset is silly.


 

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Originally Posted by Fomsie View Post

All told though, I can see the frustration some have with all the "we need a healer" cries, but at the same time I think a lot of the "anti-healer" vitriol is unfounded. Healing, like any other aspect of the game, makes things go smoother.
I'm not anti-healer at all. I just get annoyed with people who think any other kind of defender is useless.

If you have a Dark Miasma defender (or corruptor even) on the team, chances are a healer would be completely redundant.

The worst case I ran across: Empathy defender who took the Medicine pool, so he could have TWO rezzes. He didn't even HEAL people, he just let them die and rezzed them. I kicked that guy off the team, and I'm usually pretty patient with other people's playstyles. If all you're going to do is stand around until someone dies.....sorry, but you're useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.