No, we don't "need a healer!"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-01 05:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
It wasn't an attack, and I think we share the same opinions, JamMasterJMS. My point is just that the OP seems to be using quotation marks to denote emphasis in speech. I'm just saying there is a difference between:|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
I didn't read Eek's post as an attack, JMS...
I saw it as using your quote as a support mechanism, then expounding upon it. Because, as you say, Eek basically made the same point as you. |
No, we don't need a healer
and
No, we don't "need a healer"
The first one makes it seem like the person is saying that a healer is unwanted and if one were around they wouldn't be invited. Like people who say "we don't need a second tank" means they don't want to invite another tanker.
The second one is the point that you and I both agree on, I think. When someone in your team says "We need a healer", just say "No, we don't."
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Quote:
Since a warrior tends to be melee character designed to take damage so others don't, that would be a tanker. You can even choose if you use axes, maces, two swords or shields as well. |
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Again, point me to the warrior class.
|
Though I agree CoX does not require certain builds, though the right team makeup can make things go faster
Dirges
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My new response is a take on what a teammate I had not too long ago in response to concern about lack of a healer.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My two most used lines with regards to "healers":
"Empathy has nine powers. Only three heal." "I would rather prevent damage than heal it." |
"We should be fine. Looks like we can easily debuff their hitpoints."
Or alternatively, "Naw, we don't need a healer. We have plenty of hurters instead."
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| Since it was an MM, I doubt the rez power was helping much unless he was using his personal attacks, which is just silly for an MM. |
All my Masterminds make good use of their personal attacks. Or as my Mercs/Pain MM says...
And he does not exempt himself from that rule.
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I think it comes down to more of a teaming situation...|
Originally Posted by Newty
I kinda disagree on that Smurphy, I myself am a "limited" (as kat would say) build. Ever since day one of me making this character she has been focused on Empath, and only Empathy. With only two attacks from Radiation Blast. Many may say that specialized builds are limiting your contribution. But in my eyes, Heals and Buffing are as equally contributive to a team then damage or holding/controlling/debuffing is.
Okay, they may not exactly be a necessity however they are contributive, just because you don't attack and blow stuff up doesnt make you not contributing. You are merely contributing in some other way. I do kinda disagree, but meh. I won't hold it against you. It isn't in my nature to do so. Neutronic Girl is only known for her empathy output, one of the notable empaths on the Union server within certain circles. Some of the points raised in this thread, I do disagree with. But heh, thats just opinions. |
Yes, there are times you'll be focusing on the healing aspects of your toon.
But for many, at least in the later levels, this becomes less needed.
Yuo see, the team also has a Cold Dom Troller on the team, shielding everyone and then locking things down.
The tanker's holding aggro.
Scrappers are going nuts.
Even the blaster hardly seems to need the use of the Empath's heal.
So now, the Empath is basically throwing out Fortitude and the Auras (maybe AB), then standing around waiting on one of the blasts to recharge.
Now, its whoevers toon it is, but I have to say, I know when I see an Empath with just one heal in the late game, while I don't kick them from the team, I cringe a bit, even more so when I start teaming and realize the heals aren't really needed.
I cringe even more when I see an AR or Archery Defender with the tier 1, but no tier 9. I mean really, no tier 9?
I have yet to see an Emp/DP with just the tier 1, but I'm sure someone made one.
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Actually low level healers aren't very effective to begin with, except for patch jobs. In general the biggest difference is made by some heavy debuffs and control powers. Healing reaches a point where it becomes useless if everyone is barely getting hurt but crowd control and debuffs is always useful and beneficial.
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8 well built scrappers for the win
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Originally Posted by Dirges
Since a warrior tends to be melee character designed to take damage so others don't, that would be a tanker. You can even choose if you use axes, maces, two swords or shields as well.
Though I agree CoX does not require certain builds, though the right team makeup can make things go faster |
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You know what? Not all effective Blaster builds are DPS-oriented. My main is better at Control than DPS, yet my purpose in a party? If it moves, shoot it. That's what people want when they hire me.
You don't hear us CONSTANTLY COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.
Good CHRIST am I sick of whiny "I'm not a healer!1" Defenders.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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But my TA/Ice Defender isn't a healer (and no. She is not going to take Medicine Pool just to have a heal power. She has more important abilities to learn instead.)
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Originally Posted by Tramontane
You know what? Not all effective Blaster builds are DPS-oriented. My main is better at Control than DPS, yet my purpose in a party? If it moves, shoot it. That's what people want when they hire me.
You don't hear us CONSTANTLY COMPLAINING ABOUT IT. Good CHRIST am I sick of whiny "I'm not a healer!1" Defenders. |
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Damn trick arrow, sonic, force fields, etc. not healing! Don't they know their jobs?! They should heal when told to!|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
Good CHRIST am I sick of whiny "I'm not a healer!1" Defenders. |
Oh, wait...
As far as "needing a healer," last weekend I joined a PUG Synapse with my 20-ish Dark/Dark defender. Balanced build. Full team of 8. We ended up with a "healer," 27 months (IIRC) worth of badges, level 50, one blast (and the nuke,) full concealment pool, hasten, tp, etc, etc, etc. The classic "healer."
Who did the least on the team?
Who was AFK the most?
Who was last to the missions?
Who was utterly useless, just sitting there during hunt missions?
Who dragged behind the team, often in another room, while we were fighting?
Who couldn't find their way through the maps?
Who ended up buffing the squishies, oh, let's try almost never despite having them? And buffed ATs that didn't need it?
If your answer to all the above is "The 'healer,'" you win.
*I* ended up using TG to break people out of tesla cages (in between blasts, tar patches, DNs and the like.) And I most certainly am "not a healer." In fact, on the "h34l0r"'s first AFK (a few minutes into the first mission,) he/she/it even said "So we have another healer?" Reply? "No."
Why the "healer hate?" Because, frankly, most are like that, useless and can't get their mind around "blue shield does not mean they spam heals." They freaking deserve it. And have since the game's beginning.
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True, but in general low-level heals are more effective than most other low level buff/debuff powers. Until they get to the mid-20s with SOs and some spare slots most other buffers and debuffers don't have enough enhancement in their powers to protect the team on their own. In particular those sets with 60s or 90s recharge patch debuffs aren't even close to having them up every spawn (or even every other spawn).
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Originally Posted by Tal_N
Actually low level healers aren't very effective to begin with, except for patch jobs. In general the biggest difference is made by some heavy debuffs and control powers. Healing reaches a point where it becomes useless if everyone is barely getting hurt but crowd control and debuffs is always useful and beneficial.
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I'm surprised at just what everyone in City of XXXXXX denotes as healing....
Universally, healing is in essence the opposite of damage. This does not always mean it needs to take effect AFTER damage has been done.
As I consider myself a Devout "Healer" with at least one of my characters in any MMO I play:
In my experience, I would praise my tanks who actually geared up properly, because in essence, they helped heal themselves by absorbing damage before it became visible. This also applies to buffs, and de-buffs. What ever in any way minimizes damage and helps to achieve the end goal of sustaining the team is considerably an act of healing. Just because it's indirect, doesn't discount it.
My first 50 was an Emp/Psy, I re-rolled it because I felt utterly useless in a better bilt team, save for my MoSTF, I didn't actually have much else to do than CM everyone rapidly, Fort the Squishy Figters, Teleport people who slacked, Cast Vengance on our inevitable moron, and provide Leaderhsip to everyone.
This exact toon was Re-Rolled as an Mind/Empathy Controller, and fulfills ALL of theese rolls and MORE, has also been the sole direct healer in an MoSTF, and save for Leaderhsip just not beign as strong, the Toon is now FAR more effective in ALL aspects of the game for me.
I as an Empath/Pain Domination Player understand fully what being a Direct healer means, and I know how to be more than just an idle mass while taking on this role.
However my point is that Healers ARE needed, but close minded people don't understand what constitutes HEALING. In CoX Healing =/= Empathy/Pain Domination/Thermal.
I do on othe other hand know for a fact that there are plenty of situations where a direct healer is required. Just because it's part of the game that "YOU" don't partake in often or ever does not mean you have the right to be angry at those who know what they need.
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I can't name any of those situations. Perhaps those situations only exist because some players are standing around and not doing any attacking. Perhaps I've never encountered them because players on my team don't stand around doing nothing.|
Originally Posted by Pacifica Auras
I do on othe other hand know for a fact that there are plenty of situations where a direct healer is required. Just because it's part of the game that "YOU" don't partake in often or ever does not mean you have the right to be angry at those who know what they need.
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Perhaps its a vicious cycle: One only needs a "healer" because one has a "healer" on the team who only heals and doesn't do anything else.
I do not allow players on my eams if they stand around and do nothing. While I play my healers, I can asure you that Buffing, and sustaining everyone's HP while using my controll powers effectivly is infact a full time job. So Does this make me useless in your eyes?
Also, just asking here, because I don't know if it has or not been done, but MoSTF with no direct healing? I wanna see the team beating Recluse like this, as to commend them on what I feel is a great accomplishment.
So does that suggest that having a team with 8 people on it is magically enough attckers to nullify all damage done to the team?
You do realize the true goal of a healer is to minimize death to an acceptable level, and within my playing circles 0 deaths is the acceptable level.
Quote:
*raises hand*|
Originally Posted by Pacifica Auras
Also, just asking here, because I don't know if it has or not been done, but MoSTF with no direct healing? I wanna see the team beating Recluse like this, as to commend them on what I feel is a great accomplishment.
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My Dark Armor tank has no need of an empath. One of my successful MoSTFs was done with only debuffers, who only focused on the towers.
It's really not that hard if the team is halfway competent.
Edit to add:
It also helps any Mo* attempt to not have any scrappers on the team.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by Willowpaw
But my TA/Ice Defender isn't a healer (and no. She is not going to take Medicine Pool just to have a heal power. She has more important abilities to learn instead.)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Damn trick arrow, sonic, force fields, etc. not healing! Don't they know their jobs?! They should heal when told to!
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ETA: I'm terribly sorry that seemed so inflammatory, but the point to which you seemed to be responding was genuinely not the one I was making. o-O
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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No it wasn't. The only one missing points here is you. Your controlling blaster can still dish out DPS.|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
And that, ladies and gentlemen, was the sound of a point being completely missed.
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A TA, sonic, cold domination, etc. defender can not in any realm of reality heal you without taking the same pool powers available to everyone, which are not meant to be combat heals.
Blaster = damage.
Defender = support.
Defender =/= healing.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pacifica Auras
I do not allow players on my eams if they stand around and do nothing. While I play my healers, I can asure you that Buffing, and sustaining everyone's HP while using my controll powers effectivly is infact a full time job. So Does this make me useless in your eyes?
Also, just asking here, because I don't know if it has or not been done, but MoSTF with no direct healing? I wanna see the team beating Recluse like this, as to commend them on what I feel is a great accomplishment. So does that suggest that having a team with 8 people on it is magically enough attckers to nullify all damage done to the team? You do realize the true goal of a healer is to minimize death to an acceptable level, and within my playing circles 0 deaths is the acceptable level. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
However, a person who doesn't attack is as useful to me as someone who stands at the door in a mission and does nothing. To me, a person who doesn't attack contributes nothing.
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I am familiar with playing with a no death playstyle. I have an Empathy/Assault Rifle toon in that SG named "Shutup and ShootThem". I make stuff dead, toss out some buffs, and occasionally toss out a heal in between fights. I am familiar with playing with a frequent death playstyle. I'm familiar with everything and anything in between. In no scenario have I ever thought "man, we could use someome who just buffs and heals."
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... Well, actually, my DPS is far below what's expected of a Blaster, because I've focused on my control abilities. It's still the same issue- I can't competitively do damage, but I do have a strong suit. However, everybody else wants me to shoot it if it moves, and I can't do that well, ergo I'm undesirable by many teams.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No it wasn't. The only one missing points here is you. Your controlling blaster can still dish out DPS.
A TA, sonic, cold domination, etc. defender can not in any realm of reality heal you without taking the same pool powers available to everyone, which are not meant to be combat heals. Blaster = damage. Defender = support. Defender =/= healing. |
(To say nothing of the Blaster market being glutted anyway, honestly.)
The point is, oh my god, is it /really/ any pain in your *** that sometimes people specifically want a healer?
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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I agree with this.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
In no scenario have I ever thought "man, we could use someome who just buffs and heals."
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Even when an Emp jumps on my team, I hear, "I'll try my best." Fine with me. If folks complain about lack of buffs, I tell them to build their toons to survive without them and treat them like gifts.
I shelved my Emp/Sonic months ago because I grew tired of the constant calls for this buff or that. Fire/Kin was also mothballed, as if I leveled a toon just to Speed Boost folks.
I think the more folks complain about not getting the buffs will make those characters less and less likely to be created.
I all ways feel safe having at least one defender or equiverlent (CoV) not so
much for the Teleport Friend and Reserect (Which is nice) but for the sheer
De-Buffing of the Targets and buffing of the team that they supply is
invaluble.
I've done pleanty of missions with just Blasters or just scrapers some times a
mix of the two, once did a crazy thing and we had five Tanks between Lv25
(me) and level 40 it was insane and so funny to watch these five brutes
going in and laying waste. (Took ages mind to do the mission though)
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You're missing part of the point, however. That "healer" that people insist is necessary - see the title - *isn't.* But having someone insist on being one - and playing just that way, and insist other defenders play that way - affects the archetype and the players as a whole. |
Originally Posted by Tramontane
And that, ladies and gentlemen, was the sound of a point being completely missed.
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Why?
Because every tell I get as a Defender, due to experience, I immediately wonder if they're "looking for a healer," if I'm going to waste my time going and getting involved with the team only to be kicked because - regardless of what my de/buffing skills and advantages are - I can't make "pretty green numbers." Never mind that I can keep you from needing to be "healed" in the first place.
Your "Controlling blaster" (and I've played something similar) doesn't redefine blasters for everyone. Nor does a blapper. Or a petless MM. The "healer," however, dips into a role that's mostly irrelevant here in COH, and *does* affect views and perceptions of an entire AT.
Or, to answer your question later:
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| The point is, oh my god, is it /really/ any pain in your *** that sometimes people specifically want a healer? |
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Yea, I always hate how the whole team grinds to a halt because someone wants to throw out an AoE buff and insists that everyone is within his range before casting it. Just throw out the damn thing and get on with the mission already!
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I almost never make calls for people to "gather" for any AoE buffs. I simply position myself as best I can while the team is rolling and fire them off. That whole hey-everybody-stop-what-you're-doing-and-gather-around-me thing has always seemed a bit self-important, bossy, and irritating to me.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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You've seriously encountered people like this?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You're missing part of the point, however. That "healer" that people insist is necessary - see the title - *isn't.* But having someone insist on being one - and playing just that way, and insist other defenders play that way - affects the archetype and the players as a whole.
Why? Because every tell I get as a Defender, due to experience, I immediately wonder if they're "looking for a healer," if I'm going to waste my time going and getting involved with the team only to be kicked because - regardless of what my de/buffing skills and advantages are - I can't make "pretty green numbers." Never mind that I can keep you from needing to be "healed" in the first place. Your "Controlling blaster" (and I've played something similar) doesn't redefine blasters for everyone. Nor does a blapper. Or a petless MM. The "healer," however, dips into a role that's mostly irrelevant here in COH, and *does* affect views and perceptions of an entire AT. Or, to answer your question later: When I've dropped a mission, spent time zoning, joined a team and get kicked partway through an arc or a TF because my defender is not a "healer," then yes, it is. |
See, that's not a problem with a word, that's a problem with groups being led by utter tossers.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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Yes, I have. As have friends of mine.|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
You've seriously encountered people like this?
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| See, that's not a problem with a word, that's a problem with groups being led by utter tossers. |
you dont need a h34l0rz. You want traps