No, we don't "need a healer!"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-01 05:33 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Just 2 days ago, I was on a team (about level 16-17 team) with 2 Scrappers, 3 Blasters, a Troller (/Cold Domination) and 2 Defenders (1 was Cold/ the other was Traps/). *I was one of the 3 Blasters.
The leader was a 42 month Vet. *He saw our team and this is how the conversation went:
Him: we need a healer. Who wants to quit?
Me: Oh lord, this sounds like that thread all over again. Not every team needs a "healer".
Him: -we- need a healer lol
Me: We have 2 Cold Doms and a Traps. We'll be nearly softcapped at level 16. We do not need a healer.
Him: lol whatever we'll see
Well we get into the mission and our team is a buzzsaw. *We are routinely handling 2 spawns of mobs set for +3, x8. *Nobody has died. *The Troller was holding mobs down (she was Plant/) while the Defenders were doing some damage and keeping everyone very safe. *Meanwhile, the 2 Scrappers and 3 Blasters were shredding whole spawns. * Nobody died for 3 missions until the Cold/ Defender quit. *Then the only death we had was the leader (go figure).
After 42 months you'd think that he'd realize that most teams don't need healers. *Or he'd at least learn to recognize what type of team -does- need a healer.*
Just a little story. *Also it's a good example of why, even at the early levels, Cold Domination is such a great, and underrated, set.
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We've all been there (us defenders anyway). It stems from the Unholy Trinity of mmo combat: Tank/DPS/Healer. In most MMOs that trinity is required. You must have 1 'main' healer and one 'backup' healer. You must have 1 'main tank' and one 'off tank'. And you then need damage dealers, because the 'tank' classes are usually built for survivability but little damage. And the medics will be barely capable of dealing damage (even if they have high damage spells not in their hotbar).|
Originally Posted by TygerTyger
OK, I know this issue has been done to death... but c'mon people, you don't need a "healer" (if such a thing even exists in CoX) to have an effective team. I've been playing here for a while now, and this myth is still plaguing my playtime.
Last night, sent out a "((Level 10 blaster, looking for a team))" broadcast, and accepted an invite a second or two later. What I didn't think to check was the name of the invitee. It was the same fellow who'd been spamming a "need a healer" on his broadcast team call. I thought I'd give it a go anyway, as time was limited. We gathered (the six of us that were in the team) and waited at the entrance to the mission (radio mission). After the leader had us wait an additional five to ten minutes, repeatedly spamming his "need a healer", I finally broke down. Me: "Newsflash mate, we don't need a healer." Me: "A "healer" would be handy, but hardly necessary." Leader: "Hey newsboy, we do. Trust me, we'll all die without one." Me: "OK, who's ready to go, lets get in there." The team followed me in to the mission (a blend of scrappers and blasters with a tank) and we proceeded to demolish three missions in a row. Dings were heard everywhere. We did have a couple of folks faceplant, but that was mostly due to really bad playing (party got split and the two groups tried to take on large spawns... bad idea) and fun was had throughout the land. When I left after the third mission, I got three tells, all of which thanked me for telling the leader we didn't need a healer, and asking to friend me. I also got a tell from the leader, smugly noting the faceplants and telling me none of them would have happened if we'd had a "healer"... I had to log off before I gave him a piece of my mind (and there is very little of it left after all the pieces I have handed out previously!) but I couldn't believe this is still prevalent in this game. Where does this myth come from, that you "need" certain things in order to play? And why is it always a "healer" that people are looking for? I assume that means an Empath defender or controller, but why is that seen as so great? For the record, I have a Ill/Emp at level 40, and an Emp/NRG in the late 30s, so I do know the sets can be helpful.... but they are not the be all and end all of this bloody game! Grrr.... taking deep and meditative breaths now.... |
In CoX though you don't need that unholy trinity. Heroes can roll with nearly any combination of archtypes. Some meleers Some support types can't heal, but can keep the team so safe they don't need healing usually or kills things so fast healing's unneeded. And EVERYONE can select healing abilities if desired regardless of AT.
The problem is that the 'healer' mentality is very entrenched. And almost every single non-superhero MMO feeds that mentality. It creates situations where a TA/A defender can join a team, be not only the sole survivor of 3 fights in a row but ALSO the one who won the fights before handing out awakens, and then gets booted as 'dead weight' due to not healing. Heh, to me the rest of that team was dead weight. My level 10 TA/A defender in issue 5 was the one actually killing the +5 con enemies in the mission. And remember that in issue 5 Trick Arrow was really and truly gimped with EVERY core debuff having a duration of 30 seconds, and recharge of 2 minutes.
Yes, I got extremely lucky that time. Every time I dropped an enemy I got one of three types of inspirations (which got used right away). I either got a Luck (+def), a Catch a Breath (+33 end), or a small green (+25% health back instantly). At one point I had something like 8 Lucks active at once.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Awakens are fine and all, but if I'm in the heat of combat on a /poison mastermind or my dark/rad defender... I want you on your feet and fighting NOW! As such I'll use a combat rez. That, and on my /poison mastermind I get to laugh as you vomit your toenails up after 30 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You know, I've never understood people's obsession with having someone who can rez. Personally I just carry a few wakies around with me at all times and combine inspirations to make new ones if I use them or give them away. Howling Twilight is useful for the debuff and mez but the others I class as powers to take if you've got nothing else you want or have a spare power choice and no slots for it.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I don't deny that the rez powers are useful. I just question people's obsession with them. Personally if I ever rolled an Empath Resurrection would be one of the first powers in the set that I'd skip. Same goes for Rad, Poison Thermal and Pain. Dark is the only one where I'd consider the rez non-skippable and that's because it's a very powerful debuff (and it doesn't require a dead body) not because it's a rez. Rez power are, to me, pretty much at the bottom of the list in terms of power selections. I'll take them if I don't have any spare slots and I've laready taken the other available "slotless" powers (i.e. Leadership)
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Awakens are fine and all, but if I'm in the heat of combat on a /poison mastermind or my dark/rad defender... I want you on your feet and fighting NOW! As such I'll use a combat rez. That, and on my /poison mastermind I get to laugh as you vomit your toenails up after 30 seconds.
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Of course healing is far more reactive than preventative, but i read it that you were referring to acquiring a teammate who can heal in advance of actually needing it.|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
My take:
If you WANT a "healer" on your team, thats good... preventative measures are always smart. If you NEED a "healer" on your team, that's bad... it means you're deliberately biting off more than you can chew. Turn the diff down! |
i still regularly see Empathy users who are built as healers, some in very silly ways. Was on a Manticore TF team Friday with an Empath who taken the Medicine pool in addition to his primary's heals and basically skipped all attacks. During the TF he was good about tossing out the Fort and AB and most of the time gave up quickly when the team would keep on fighting as he called "gather for RA's" and just position to boost as many teammates as possible. Overall he was pretty competent about buffing and i don't think he used the Medicine pool.
My best guess is that his SG insisted on the build or he used a build someone else made. If he'd taken Assault and Tactics instead of Aid Other and Aid Self the team would've gone even faster, but at least he played well.
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I can understand the sentiment with Resurrect, because it's just a rez. But if you'll take Howling Twilight for being a good debuff, why not take Mutation, Elixir of Life, and Conduit of Pain for being good buffs? Why not take Power of the Phoenix for being an attack?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't deny that the rez powers are useful. I just question people's obsession with them. Personally if I ever rolled an Empath Resurrection would be one of the first powers in the set that I'd skip. Same goes for Rad, Poison Thermal and Pain. Dark is the only one where I'd consider the rez non-skippable and that's because it's a very powerful debuff (and it doesn't require a dead body) not because it's a rez.
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(Okay, I guess I can also understand skipping Conduit of Pain on a MM, since it just buffs yourself)
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
"slotless" powers (i.e. Leadership)
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Because in all of those cases someone needs to die for them to work. I'd much rather take a power that I can use whenever I want and that will (hopefully) make the team better to prevent deaths rather than one that only works when people are dying.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I can understand the sentiment with Resurrect, because it's just a rez. But if you'll take Howling Twilight for being a good debuff, why not take Mutation, Elixir of Life, and Conduit of Pain for being good buffs? Why not take Power of the Phoenix for being an attack?
(Okay, I guess I can also understand skipping Conduit of Pain on a MM, since it just buffs yourself) |
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The only slotless power in Leadership is Assault
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I have a level 46 pain dom mastermind, and I get tagged as useless by a lot of people. Occasionally, someone who can pay attention to themselves and their teammates realizes I'm very far from useless. I am going to have to agree with some of the speculation that followed. This guy was probably healing his own pets, and had such poor endurance management that he wanted his teammates to die. When I play my minions go down every second or third mob, because the teammates always *always* come first. Similarly, if I'm on any character who uses heals, I will not run from a losing battle. Empathy Defenders who prance away when their life drops in half... THEY are useless.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I did last night. Bloody useless random Pain Dom MMs. He did have Rez though, which is was awfully proud of (and 3 of the heals which he never used. Rezzes happened instantly though).
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I had one person tell me just the other day that I "sucked." I know why, too. He continually ran off in another direction and got himself killed (DP Corruptor). I got sick of chasing him.
Anyway, my two cents on the "healer" requests is honestly if they just meant a support character who is not built for damage, that's fine. If they actually think someone has healing powers exclusively is going to turn things around for them, but nothing else will, they are just not observant. I pactmated two Blasters, a friend and I, all the way to 50 and ran with 8 blasters many many times. No healer, no tanker, juuuust pure damage. Worked fine.
@Gilia1
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But how else'm I s'posd to used Vengeance? |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Because in all of those cases someone needs to die for them to work. I'd much rather take a power that I can use whenever I want and that will (hopefully) make the team better to prevent deaths rather than one that only works when people are dying.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
My Dark Defender and Corruptor (And coming soon, MASTERMIND!) are "Healers".
...In the sense that they know Twilight Grasp and can keep the team topped off.
In an actual play style sense, they (Well... "He", because it's only one character rerolled thrice) are debuffers. I know this. My job is not to repair damage. It's to toss Tar Patch, Howling Twilight, fearsome stare and Darkest night at a crowd of enemies, and then riddle them with toxic bullets so that they hit like blind, drunken kittens. Add a garnish of Twilight Grasp and a Fluffy (Or better yet, a few more Corrs and Defenders) and you've got your party needs covered.
...Of course, if someone asks "Hey, we need a healer", I'll be like "Sure". It's easier just to come along and do your job than to argue semantics. The only issue really is if someone faceplants and Howling Twilight is on recharge. (My Philosophy is that if it's up, and you're dead, I'll try to use it near you. ...But there's a good chance it's not going to be up because I used it as a debuff)
...It's also why I think why DM for MM's is so popular. It's not limited to just helping your pets. Your heal aura is smaller, but you're still mezzing the hell out of enemies. (I wonder if the Hellfire Whip Debuffs are any good? Mmmm... Debuffs...)
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You mean it has a use other than providing a passive 7.5% recharge bonus? |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
But how else'm I s'posd to used Vengeance?
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Because Howling Twilight is the only one listed there that doesn't REQUIRE someone to be dead to use. The other 3 are absolutely useless if no one is dead to use them on. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I can understand the sentiment with Resurrect, because it's just a rez. But if you'll take Howling Twilight for being a good debuff, why not take Mutation, Elixir of Life, and Conduit of Pain for being good buffs? Why not take Power of the Phoenix for being an attack?
(Okay, I guess I can also understand skipping Conduit of Pain on a MM, since it just buffs yourself) The only slotless power in Leadership is Assault |
I consider Howling Twilight to be an awesome debuff with a nice rezzing side effect.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I see "we need a kin" fairly often, but far more frequently than that is "we need a rad". This might have just enough truth in it, for at least some TF content, to be worth discussing. |
Originally Posted by PhroX
To be honest, these days I see more "we need a kin". And it's just as wrong.
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I doubt that a rad is needed for anything specifically, but some encounters are much less tiresome when you have one, and there are some encounters that are much more fun when you have any kind of toggled anchor debuff.
Kinetics is the only time I deleted a character (fire/kin) because I absolutely hated that power set. I could not play the power set on teams, even when hiding from tells.
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Generally true. Buffs and debuffs are waaaay better at higher levels. Love those Rad defenders.|
Originally Posted by Col_Blitzkrieger
This misconception comes from all the stock MMORPGs where you need a tank, a healer, and DPS to have any chance of doing anything in a team.
Buffs are by far better than heals in CoX anyway. |
For the lower levels the empaths do come in quite handy though.
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Sure Rads are very good, and I love them around, but they're soooooo far from necessary. -regen (the thing people are usually after rads for) is found in other sets too. Cold, Poison and Traps have serious amounts of it, while Dark has some too (and maybe Kin?). Not to mention, that in a team setting, -res is just as good if not better (there was a very short period when -regen was king, but not anymore except one one or two encounters), so things like Storm, TA and Sonic are perfectly good.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I see "we need a kin" fairly often, but far more frequently than that is "we need a rad". This might have just enough truth in it, for at least some TF content, to be worth discussing.
I doubt that a rad is needed for anything specifically, but some encounters are much less tiresome when you have one, and there are some encounters that are much more fun when you have any kind of toggled anchor debuff. |
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| Kinetics is the only time I deleted a character (fire/kin) because I absolutely hated that power set. I could not play the power set on teams, even when hiding from tells. |
My main SF char is a Fire/Kin corr and I've never felt tired keeping up the SB/FS, while still blasting and maintaining Siphon Speed. Personally I like the hopped up, energizer bunny feel. 
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Yes, i see alot of people with this attatude. And it's done WONDERS now hasn't it, i almost NEVER hear people use that dreaded h word. .... I need an eyerolling emote. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My opinions and outspokenness about said opinions are the result of the pendulum effect. When the message of "NEED HEALS" is so ingrained in our community, it takes radical action to counter it. |
This is a war that's been waged since nearly day one. 6 years now. And it's a war i'm pretty sure you've won, at least in prencable. It's been YEARS since i've seen any kind of powerset disgremanation againts "non" healing support sets. Most people are more excited in my expearince when i pull out my FF/Archer or my ILL/Sonic then when i'm running my empath. Heck, at this point, the only anomitiocity I actively SEE in game towards any powerset is healer hate direct at poor noobs who prolly haven't learned the lingo yet.
Yet because the word exisits still, there can never be peace?
It's always a sad sight to see the perscuted become the percuter.
Remember how mad it made you when someone turned you down for a team, or LOL'd at you for not being a healer and stop doing the same darn thing to these so called "healers". My mini rant is over now. *** edit *** I want to make a note that i'm not actively targeting or replying to any one person in this tread, but more an attidude is see rather prevently around the boards and some in game.
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You misunderstand me. Mostly because I haven't explained myself.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
Yes, i see a lot of people with this attitude. And it's done WONDERS now hasn't it, i almost NEVER hear people use that dreaded h word. .... I need an eyerolling emote.
This is a war that's been waged since nearly day one. 6 years now. And it's a war i'm pretty sure you've won, at least in principle. It's been YEARS since i've seen any kind of powerset discrimination against "non" healing support sets. Most people are more excited in my experience when i pull out my FF/Archer or my ILL/Sonic then when i'm running my empath. Heck, at this point, the only animosity I actively SEE in game towards any powerset is healer hate direct at poor noobs who probably haven't learned the lingo yet. Yet because the word exists still, there can never be peace? It's always a sad sight to see the persecuted become the persecutor. Remember how mad it made you when someone turned you down for a team, or LOL'd at you for not being a healer and stop doing the same darn thing to these so called "healers". My mini rant is over now. I realize it's done no good, but eh, what can i say, hypocrisy fires me up. |
Every "healer" I come across I try to educate. They don't get a /kick and /gignore.
I run TFs under a simple mantra: Any build, any budget, no exclusions. It's one of my rules, and I made it to keep myself from being a team structure Nazi. I've allowed petless MMs and empaths on the team.
What I don't allow is them to call themselves a "healer." I've often said "You keep fortitude and AB on the blasters, warn five seconds before you dump the RAs somewhere near the center of the group, and that's all I ask. You know what? Take the heals out of your tray for one mission."
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You misunderstand me. Mostly because I haven't explained myself.
Every "healer" I come across I try to educate. They don't get a /kick and /gignore. I run TFs under a simple mantra: Any build, any budget, no exclusions. It's one of my rules, and I made it to keep myself from being a team structure Nazi. I've allowed petless MMs and empaths on the team. What I don't allow is them to call themselves a "healer." I've often said "You keep fortitude and AB on the blasters, warn five seconds before you dump the RAs somewhere near the center of the group, and that's all I ask. You know what? Take the heals out of your tray for one mission." |
Ok then, fair enough. I can respec that to an extent. Still think it's a tad annel to get all bent out of shape over a word, but eh, you sound somewhat reasonable at least. And, as a note i tried to edit my post to be a bit less conforentational. Didn't mean to signal YOU out, but an attidude... by well, replying to YOU i relised kind of shot that in the foot eh? Also.. did you... highlight all of my very poorly mispelled words? Heh. I'd advice againts that. Some of my longer post will keep you busy all day trying to do that stuff. LOL.
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@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
The nice things about 'heals' is that they keep a team member engaged in combat, most obviously after that team mate meets the full attention of a large amount of enemies. Forcefields/iceshields/defense in general make said member not take as much damage from said attention, making said member feel awesome that they can survive the onslaught. Sonics/fire/resist shields make them tougher, allowing them to outlive larger dangers. Again, making them feel awesome. Green number that you gave them make them think you're awesome for saving them.
This is why many think healers are awesome, in my view.
I don't mind if somebody takes fun from undoing enemy damage. When they handicap themselves by not taking powers that make their (and other players) job easier *cough*fortitude*cough* it only makes sense to mention how it might help. If they are spending time undoing damage when the team is not taking flack, asking if they could help in other ways (depending on their abilities) isn't crazy, but if they lack those, move on, let them have their fun. Don't tell 'em what to do, but tell them what the powers they skipped could do to help them, if they get a chance to pick 'em up. If they don't want to hear it, don't say it.
At this point they do what they want, but I'll avoid them in the future. Playstyles don't bug me half as much as people who refuse to learn/listen.
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It's more a combination of the -res and -regen. You don't need -tohit when your teammates have their own defense (or defense buffs from Colds/Bubblers/VEATs/whatever), or -def when your teammates have slotted attacks and team buffs (lots and lots of +tohit out there, really). -Res and -regen are the only debuff types which allow you to essentially stack your team's effectiveness against an encounter. For example, you can't get higher than a 95% hit roll against a mob, so any -def or +tohit that would raise hit rolls higher than 95% is essentially wasted. Mako, Viridian, and Ace McKnight are the only (relatively common) AVs/EBs that have Elude, and are therefore the only AVs/EBs that can give some teams issues with hitting them.|
Originally Posted by PhroX
Sure Rads are very good, and I love them around, but they're soooooo far from necessary. -regen (the thing people are usually after rads for) is found in other sets too. Cold, Poison and Traps have serious amounts of it, while Dark has some too (and maybe Kin?). Not to mention, that in a team setting, -res is just as good if not better (there was a very short period when -regen was king, but not anymore except one one or two encounters), so things like Storm, TA and Sonic are perfectly good.
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Meanwhile, -res means everyone is doing more damage and damage buffs on yourself or teammates are doing more work. -Regen means you don't need to deal as much damage to down an AV or GM because they won't be regenerating HP as fast (essentially it's like adding more damage into the equation). As far as sets that bring both -res and -regen, there's Rad, Traps, Poison, Dark, Cold, Therm, and TA (am I missing one? I know TA's -regen is in EMP Arrow, which many skip, but it's still there so...). Sonic, Pain, and Storm bring -res but not -regen, and Kinetics brings -regen but not -res.
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Oh yeah, I agree that the combination -res and -regen is indeed what makes thngs like rad good, but the perception seems to me to be along the lines of "you need -regen and only rad has it!!!!" (this from the "We need a healor!!!" and "I need a kin!!!" people). Also sufficient of one of these can easily make up for a lack of the other - a Sonic/Sonic def can get something like 100% -res on a single target. Do you really need any -regen then? And of course, while kin doesn't have -res, it has +dam, while, while not quite as good, fulfills the same role. Hence why good players tend to ask for the more general "buffs or debuffs"
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Originally Posted by macskull
It's more a combination of the -res and -regen. You don't need -tohit when your teammates have their own defense (or defense buffs from Colds/Bubblers/VEATs/whatever), or -def when your teammates have slotted attacks and team buffs (lots and lots of +tohit out there, really). -Res and -regen are the only debuff types which allow you to essentially stack your team's effectiveness against an encounter. For example, you can't get higher than a 95% hit roll against a mob, so any -def or +tohit that would raise hit rolls higher than 95% is essentially wasted. Mako, Viridian, and Ace McKnight are the only (relatively common) AVs/EBs that have Elude, and are therefore the only AVs/EBs that can give some teams issues with hitting them.
Meanwhile, -res means everyone is doing more damage and damage buffs on yourself or teammates are doing more work. -Regen means you don't need to deal as much damage to down an AV or GM because they won't be regenerating HP as fast (essentially it's like adding more damage into the equation). As far as sets that bring both -res and -regen, there's Rad, Traps, Poison, Dark, Cold, Therm, and TA (am I missing one? I know TA's -regen is in EMP Arrow, which many skip, but it's still there so...). Sonic, Pain, and Storm bring -res but not -regen, and Kinetics brings -regen but not -res. |
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Or maybe you should just spell correctly?
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Originally Posted by KingSnake
Also.. did you... highlight all of my very poorly mispelled words? Heh. I'd advice againts that. Some of my longer post will keep you busy all day trying to do that stuff. LOL.
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Nope. |
Originally Posted by Spizzie
Or maybe you should just spell correctly?
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Don't care enough. (on top of other reasons noone cares about)
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