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I'm sorry, but no. If someone chucks a snowball at you, ok valid. One time isn't harassment, griefing, etc. But - You have *every right* to ask them to stop. They can go throw snowballs at someone who wants to play that part of the game. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
To the OP...
If you're in the snow realm, I think people throwing snow and snowballs is pretty much fair game. Same as people skating around and asking for a team to do BNY missions. It's like a whole zone dedicated to snow and fooling around, so someone telling me they're RPing and to stop throwing snowballs is like people trying to RP next to Hamidon and telling people that they're interfering by doing that whole raid thing. Even though I'm an RPer, I recognize that the snow realm isn't "my RP zone" and I can't expect people there to drop what they're doing so that I can RP. If I want to RP uninterrupted, there are other places I can go. Even in that zone. You don't have to stand in the ski lodge, where there are hundreds of people coming and going, many of whom will almost assuredly not be RPers. If you insist, people throwing snowballs or doing emotes is just one of the general things that you'll have to deal with. And really, what you're doing in the zone is no more valid than what they're up to. What would your response have been had someone said "Excuse me, I'm trying to recruit for BNY missions here and your RP is distracting. Can you go do it somewhere else?" You can't always expect people to conform to what you believe they should be up to in any given location. Pocket D and the ski chalet are not official RP zones. That said, the person crossed the line when they started intentionally griefing you and especially started with the teleport stuff. At that point you were justified in sending a petition. |
They're not telling you to stop throwing snowballs. They're asking you to stop throwing snowballs at them. If you refuse, then yes, you are - quite frankly - being a jerk about it, and have no reason to complain when you get /petitioned. They've made it clear they don't want to take part in your snowball fight or be your target. Move on.
Now, if they told *everyone* in the zone to stop skiing, stop throwing snowballs, etc, they'd be over the line, and probably laughed (and snowballed) out of the zone. If they were busy doing "rp" blocking, say, the top of the ski slope, Father Time or the other NPCs? Then their RP would be disruptive. But a little group in a corner doing their own thing? No reason they shouldn't be left alone if they ask.
It's a big zone, everyone has space to do their own thing.
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One time isn't harassment, no. Continuing to do so after being asked not to is, yes.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm sorry, but no. If someone chucks a snowball at you, ok valid. One time isn't harassment, griefing, etc. But - You have *every right* to ask them to stop. They can go throw snowballs at someone who wants to play that part of the game.
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But my point is that if they're standing in a zone where that sort of thing is commonplace, stopping every person who happens to run by and hits them with a snowball, that's stupid and unreasonable.
I could understand if you were somewhere like Cap au Diable trying to RP with a friend, and a single person runs by and lobs a snowball. But to honestly stand in the very-busy snow zone and tell people not to throw snowballs at you? You're essentially standing in the middle of a crossfire with a sign that says "Don't shoot me." Maybe the people doing it ARE jerks, but you're asking for it.
I don't condone lobbing snowballs at people when they ask you not to. But I also don't think that someone should stand on the globe in Warburg and broadcast "Excuse me, but I'm going to be RPing here in Warburg. Nobody PvP with me or I'll petition you, because I politely asked you not to."
If anything, it seems more like the person is looking for a fight. If you want to RP and not get hit with snowballs, the last place you should be is next to the NPC that gives out snowballs.
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| They're not telling you to stop throwing snowballs. They're asking you to stop throwing snowballs at them. If you refuse, then yes, you are - quite frankly - being a jerk about it, and have no reason to complain when you get /petitioned. They've made it clear they don't want to take part in your snowball fight or be your target. Move on. |
But I also think standing in the number one most likely place to be hit with a snowball, telling people not to throw snowballs at you, is just provoking people. Or you're otherwise ignorant to the fact that you're being unreasonable.
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Now, if they told *everyone* in the zone to stop skiing, stop throwing snowballs, etc, they'd be over the line, and probably laughed (and snowballed) out of the zone. If they were busy doing "rp" blocking, say, the top of the ski slope, Father Time or the other NPCs? Then their RP would be disruptive. But a little group in a corner doing their own thing? No reason they shouldn't be left alone if they ask. It's a big zone, everyone has space to do their own thing. |
To be clear, I don't have a problem with someone asking somebody not to hit them with snowballs. Or not to play loud emotes repeatedly, or spam their loud and visual powers, or anything that someone could find annoying. What I do have a problem with is standing in a place where those things are commonplace or even expected, and thinking that you should get to alter the actions of everyone in the zone, or else petition them.
If I stood on the dance floor of Pocket D telling people not to dance because it's distracting, I'd get just the sort of feedback as standing in the ski lodge telling people not to throw snowballs at me. If it really bothers you that much, you need to relocate. Not stick around and try to bully people into doing what you think they should be up to with the threat of petition. That's being a jerk.
I agree that the person the OP dealt with needed to be petitioned for intentionally griefing. But I don't agree that the OP should be standing at snowball ground zero, telling every person who throws a snowball at them to knock it off.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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You know, the internet and things like it or things that use it such as MMORPGs are like beer. It effects everyone different, but most act just about the same. A little makes you kinda happy, some more makes you see spots, and with enough, it'll bring out your "True Nature."
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Rand said a lot of things, but I've always found her to be pedantically self-contradictory. She would have excelled at Internet discussion forums.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Rand, to my understanding, essentially stated that "Selfishness is a virtue."
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Specifically relevant to this discussion, Rand never, at least to my knowledge, dealt with the concept of defectors. Basically, Rand's philosophy only really works if everyone follows it, and yet Rand's own value system would suggest that under such a system, its in one's own self-interest to act outside the system.**
Another way of putting it is that Rand doesn't account for Nash. She assumes at all times that enlightened self-interest for a group will always converge on what would be optimal for the individual, and that by extension what is considered optimal for the individual can be extrapolated to what will be optimal for the group. Nash proves you can never take that for granted.
** Rand dismisses any notion of abstract altruism, yet suggests that its rational to obey codes of conduct that allow everyone else to follow the same Objectivist philosophy you do, for no other reason than that she declares it to be "rational." That's an example of pedantic self-contradiction. Why should I *care* if anyone else has the same survival opportunities that I do, under Rand? If you need to die for me to live, while I'm applying force to kill you I will be taking your ability to act rationally, but I have no self-interest at that moment in allowing you that option. Basically, Rand never fully explains why anyone who follows Rand should allow anyone else to follow Rand. It can't be out of the goodness of your heart, because Objectivists aren't supposed to believe there is goodness of heart. The presumption tends to be that if you don't allow others to follow Rand, they won't let you do so either, so its in your best interests to allow everyone to follow Rand and create an Objectivist society. But as I said, that doesn't account for defectors: Randian wolves preying rationally on Randian sheep.
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Is there ANYTHING that you don't know about, Arcana?
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If you like Nash, you should look up some lesser known but still interesting work with population drift in iterated games of prisoners dilemma. Rick Riolo's work in particular comes to mind. Though his work in no way accounts for internal motivations of these modeled agents, it demonstrates dynamics that support the existence of mixed populations of altruistic agents and selfish agents. Even more interesting are the quasi-cyclical chaotic oscillations in the breakdown of those populations from generation to generation. The patterns his very simple models lead to do appear to echo many real world anecdotes. Neat stuff.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Another way of putting it is that Rand doesn't account for Nash. She assumes at all times that enlightened self-interest for a group will always converge on what would be optimal for the individual, and that by extension what is considered optimal for the individual can be extrapolated to what will be optimal for the group. Nash proves you can never take that for granted.
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For the internal motivations, you could look perhaps to primatologists like Franz DeWaal and his peers. Interesting research there though some of his popular science survey books tend to paint with the broader strokes of a poet rather than a scientist.
Anyways, it's the collective of stuff like this that I've encountered over the years as well as my own internal life experiences that ultimately blows Rand out of the water. Though others' obviously get a lot out of her work, I think she misses the mark in terms of effectively and fully describing the human experience and our tendencies. And here I find myself at a similar place as Castle. To me, the humanity she describes so often sounds more like the clinical description of sociopathic personality disorders than a broad philosophy of man.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Rand
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
*Sniff*
Oh, wait - this is a different Rand? |
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No, not that one either |
Originally Posted by Flarstux
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Pretty sure she doesn't know about the thoughts in my head.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Is there ANYTHING that you don't know about, Arcana?
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But the Restraining Order DOES argue against that... Is Arcana Hari Seldon, perhaps?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, not that one either
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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halfway to a better forum then.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Well there goes half of MY vocabulary.
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sorry i'm late, was at work till 3.
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Originally Posted by Castle
Anyway, this post is far too long already, and I'm sure I'm going to get grief for it. I'm ok with that; I'm pretty sure the benefit outweighs the cost.
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No, just applause from my corner.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
For anyone interested, the harassing player mentioned in the OP was back last night, doing the same thing, which resulted in further petitions from a number of different people under "Harassment/Conduct".
Said player continued to state that he was "roleplaying" (and I use the term VERY loosely) a character who was testing teleporting in Pocket D, using this as an "excuse" to a) not talk to anyone in-character and b) use teleport to "nudge" people - into furniture, out of the chalet, and so forth.
Within an hour there were not less than two GMs in-zone, and the player vanished. I cannot say for certain whether the GMs banned the player, though it seems likely, under the circumstances.
So, in answer to the OP - yes, there is a hard line taken against harassment in-game, whether RP is involved or not.
The true difficulty here is what actually constitutes harassment, and for this I borrow the Oxford English Dictionary...
harass
• verb 1 torment (someone) by subjecting them to constant interference or intimidation. 2 make repeated small-scale attacks on (an enemy) in order to wear down resistance.
— DERIVATIVES harasser noun harassment noun.
Considering that the player in question continued with his behaviour despite repeated polite requests that he stop, his behaviour actually fits both meanings quite adequately.
The simple fact of the matter is that we all sign up to the EULA whenever we enter the game, and harassment is not allowed. The GMs have a right and a responsibility to attempt to ensure that harassment of any sort does not occur, and the act of petitioning ensures that they are made aware that someone believes action needs taking.
Still, I am aware that the GMs cannot constantly be on the lookout for something like this, and as Castle said, they won't always take prompt or, indeed, any action. I do not believe that this should be seen as a sign that they do not care about this sort of behaviour, but simply that there are limitations to the processes in place, as well as a certain amount of discretion on the part of the individual GMs involved.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I was annoyed by the player's behaviour - more that he chose to continue with his "constant interference" and "repeated small-scale attacks" after being politely asked to stop than anything else, really - so I am glad of the outcome, assuming that he has, indeed, been banned. The rest of the evening passed without incident - there was the usual crowd of RPers (not cybering, I'll point out), as well as people looking for BNY teams, crafting stuff at the elf, and calling out for buffs to do the ski runs. It was rather nice.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Does my heart good hearing that the rest of the evening went well Shadowe.
I did not partake in any rp'ing though and for that I have regrets, cause it looked like a very nice crowd. (Lots of people having FUN)
My story and reason for being there was "eek one char that has not gotten the badges yet-and leaving tomorrow for the season-Do I have time? etc". I did notice this Big lump of "lets-ruin-other-peoples-fun"- "rp" (aka not rp). So I did begin to engage him in a conversation, asking him why he was there harrassing the Rp'ers. (The more he typed the less time he was harrassing *cough*) I did get the same responses you got Shadowe... aka "im' rping", "watch my bio" (Which I had read... and found as a hidden attack/excuse on rp'ers)
In the end I'm glad to hear that the griefer was out of the picture for the rest of the evening. I am glad you had a lovely evening. I am glad he vanished... Yes I love a happy ending.
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
That is one key point that people are forgetting.
Some people are acting like the RPers are demanding that people stop using the Chalet or stop using broadcast to advertise for 'beating up ugly midget' teams (as one person in broadcast called it...which did illict many responses of "oh...if only you could...damn freakeh baby!").
Pretty much keeping just letting people get on with the business of doing the normal thing for being in the Chalet.
It's not like they sit right at the entrance to the ski slope blocking it all of...yet some people are acting as if they were.
Yeesh people...
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And all that because you don't like RP and enjoy deriding it. Wow.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
Way to respond to my response to someone else that wasn't you as if I was personally attacking you. That always makes me feel awesome. Had I thought for a second that any response in this thread would've been taken seriously unless it was anything other than in support of your righteous indignation, I assure you I would've made a more serious post to begin with.
I'm not sure quite where you're going with this line of thought considering I was quoting someone else and referencing a point made by someone other than yourself. Incorrect, and herein lies the meat of the issue. You HAD a grievance with the person, but as soon as you petitioned them you officially lost your grievance with them as you put it in the capable hands of NC Soft Community Relations. As such, if anything is done regarding the matter it's solely at the discretion of NC Soft. Had your post simply been the first paragraph or two inquiring about the rules on the matter instead of a lengthy description of the events, I'd say you were simply looking for clarification. Considering the nature of your original post and your subsequent posts in the thread, I can only conclude that you're not seeking clarification but instead looking for support. Hence why I didn't think you'd take an honest differing opinion seriously and instead opted for the more humorous and fun for me route in posting. Just because it's in local doesn't mean people can't see it. Depending on the server population at the time and their location in a zone, local can be seen by just as many people as broadcast. You mention the EULA, so that's a nice segue into responding to your initial post, which I will do below. Right there is where your post should have ended, with perhaps a slight bit of background information. Say a sentence or two. In response to your inquiry regarding the stance held by NC Soft on harassment during RP in game, I'd say that there isn't an official or unofficial stance considering Roleplaying is an uncovered byproduct of the service NC Soft provides and as such, NC Soft is not liable. There are, however, rules in the EULA and the Rules of Conduct regarding harassment. From the EULA: From the Rules of Conduct: As you've pointed out, only you are privy to the conversation between the two of you, so we only have your word to go off of regarding the situation and how things were handled. I'll merely point out that powers and emotes are content supplied and supported by NC Soft, while Roleplaying is not. While everyone's fun in this game is subjective to themselves, they were using aspects of the game and you were not, so the situation is quite murky. A nice afterthought and a good way to try and cover for yourself, but you've already supplied through your post a) a time, b) a server, c) a zone, d) a location in said zone, e) an archetype and f) a situation tied solely to the player in question. While not quite as concrete as giving out the character or global name, it's certainly enough to bring that person to light. Combined with this public thread you made detailing things, I'd say you yourself have risked breaking the EULA and the Rules of Conduct regarding causing "distress and/or unwanted attention" to the other person. |
The reason I responded to your post is because it annoyed me. If you don't like RP, that's fine but that wasn't the point of the discussion. Attempting to turn my replies into some kind of 'you have become the person who was haranguing you' are puerile. Oh and very passive aggressive.
This is a discussion board, not a 1-1 conversation board. Therefore anything you, me, or anyone else puts up, is up for discussion.
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And just when I think you're nothing more than a blathering looney toon bouncing around the screen, you go and say something sensible.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Offense is created by the offended, not the offender. If nothing upsets or offends you, then guess what? Nobody has that power over you, and you lead a much happier life.
People GIVE others the power to hurt them. If someone is hurting you with words... simply take that power away from them. Give their words no weight or meaning. There, problem solved and you end up with an idiot that's ranting and raving his head off to no effect, wasting HIS time instead of yours. |
Ironically though, I would say that dealing with the in-game bullies is much like dealing with Westley. If you don't like the current 'scenery' then it's best to move on with your mood intact, versus getting your knickers in a twist.
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Originally Posted by Westley
Oh how fickle love is. This is one of the reasons why I'm still single.
Probably the main reason though is because I'm a complete ***. |
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.Driver Sweeper * CohHelper * HijackThis * TweakCoH * CPU-ID
* Defraggler * Program Security Scan * PC Performance Scan *
*Goes and does a Prometheus, sneaking into the Lair of All Devs to steal the [I Win] button and the [Banhammer], risking eternal pain and dismemberment as a result*
Gettin' a lil' bit mythic on your butts there
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is a point that seems to be missed somewhere between the EU and the US. I hear "horror stories" about public RP on the US servers quite a bit, really, but I have never witnessed anything like it on Union. If you go into Union Pocket D, odds are you'll find some people around the blue-side bar drinking and chatting. If you go to Galaxy Girl statue after 9.00 UK time, you'll find a some people hanging around, chatting. That's pretty much it, ignoring things like people being Tools and trying to screw things up for everyone else.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
That is one key point that people are forgetting.
Some people are acting like the RPers are demanding that people stop using the Chalet or stop using broadcast to advertise for 'beating up ugly midget' teams (as one person in broadcast called it...which did illict many responses of "oh...if only you could...damn freakeh baby!"). Pretty much keeping just letting people get on with the business of doing the normal thing for being in the Chalet. It's not like they sit right at the entrance to the ski slope blocking it all of...yet some people are acting as if they were. Yeesh people... |
Yes, "Adult" RP does happen, but every roleplayer I've encountered on Union has been mature enough to understand that people really don't do that stuff in public, so they take it to SG bases, mission maps and the like. Places where they won't be inflicting the (potentially) graphic nature of the RP on the general public.
Thus, when in public, the general consensus amongst the RPers that I have personally had dealings with (and bearing in mind that I am one myself) is "live and let live". As long as people don't try to spoil our fun, we are happy to let them have theirs. We (yeah, okay, pretty sweeping statement, here) don't intentionally interfere, and we don't break beyond PG13. On at least one public chat channel for RPers I even know there is a moderated "Watershed" before which swearing is not tolerated.
Anyone who has experienced differently is either in locations that are not commonly used for public RP or are on a server that is not Union, and I refuse to be tarred by the same brush as others who have no regard for their fellow players.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Points I'd like to raise having read through this thread, someone mentioned that throwing snowballs in such a zone is natural and should be expected.
If someone came into a pub/bar and started hurling snow at people, they'd probably pretty quickly get asked to leave. This wasn't a case of being outside on the snow, it was a case of people being inside that freaky glass, wood and metal chalet, by the bar and with the big fire roaring nearby, getting pelted.
Regarding RP'ers crowding NPC's: Usually people keep to the bar areas and the seats. Sometimes they'll use the bar underneath, or the one at the bottom of the slope. The crafter for the candy canes is only really surrounded by people crafting with Candy Canes, and there's easy access to Father Time.
Regarding RP'ers filling the chat window up: Broadcast is what nearly all of the BYN mission requests gets shouted in, so it's not like it's being drowned out by local in character chat and emotes. And with the two tabs in the basic chat window, I always move Broadcast to the top one with my global channels and keep the bottom one for System Messages, Local, Team, SG and Emote chatter.
I wasn't there on the night that the character in question was porting about, but I was there a few nights ago when some charming man was standing in the middle, firing off Target AoE's, PBAOE's, using Whirlwind and other aura powers to generally be annoying. Ignore only removes verbal spam if any, if only it could erase characters and their powers from your field of view.
And yeah, regarding RP with adult/mature concepts, I've never witnessed it happening in /local in an area that anyone can get to. And that's after almost five years of RPing. PG13/12 is about the highest 'rating' of things you get in local. Pretty much watching your prime time soap operas or just post watershed crime/drama is the usual level.
At least on Union, I can't speak for any other server.
Finally, I think it may be time to bring up a quote by the great C. S. Lewis that I believe has graced these boards before when it comes to roleplaying. Some people think it's stupid, just make believe, childish. If having an imagination and a desire to play out stories and concepts and ideas is such, well, then I think that's more the loss for someone who detracts on that.
So, here's the quote then:
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| Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. |
The one thing I found amusing about the whole incident was the person in questions attitude that RPers have no life...yet he had hours to waste TPing around the chalet in small hops 
I tell a lie, there were two things. Pro-tip; if you are going to try justifying your griefing by thinly disguising it as RP, don't say in Local "I'm trying to see what it takes to get banned" 
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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If you're standing in the ski lodge, you're no less than 50 feet from the NPC that gives out snowballs as a reward for candy canes. I can't think of any place in the game where people are more likely to be hit by random snowballs that people are playing with. In your analogy, it's not just a pub/bar where people are for some unfathomable reason throwing snowballs at eachother. It's a pub/bar where there's literally a guy in the middle of the room, handing out snowballs from a cooler.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Points I'd like to raise having read through this thread, someone mentioned that throwing snowballs in such a zone is natural and should be expected.
If someone came into a pub/bar and started hurling snow at people, they'd probably pretty quickly get asked to leave. This wasn't a case of being outside on the snow, it was a case of people being inside that freaky glass, wood and metal chalet, by the bar and with the big fire roaring nearby, getting pelted. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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In the end it boils down to a simple thing.
No matter what you are doing if you are being a jerk about it you should be slapped on the back of the head.
God this thread has moved into the "field of great humor". I for one am sitting in my lawn chair,cold brew beside me,munchin on pretzel's.
"Good show keep it up!"
It times like these that I just love to bask in all this glory....srzly delish....
*Hold on have to throw some more gas on W's fire*