NCSoft and Massively


Acemace

 

Posted

Not sure this is the right place, but it certainly is CoH/CoV related so here it is.

Massively has a response from NCSoft concerning a rather doom and gloom piece they ran concerning the CoX franchise a few days ago. Not sure if it is anything more than corporate speak, but worth a read I think.

If this should be elsewhere, I apologize.


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Posted

This interview is just "communication" at its best, you know, Massively is basically saying "Is that okay with business? Is there any problem with CoX?", and the NCSoft guy is obviously answering "Yeah, everything's fine! It's perfect!".
But, the article that leads to NCSoft's response was really, really good. The point made was very important IMO. Now, we'll just have to see what the future hold, because I don't often believe what "directors of communications" say, and especially not when's it's related to NCSoft.


 

Posted

I've got to admit, it's funny that he keeps bringing up that we're the world's most popular superhero MMO, as if it's a huge market.

We've got one direct competitor, and a second coming out in the future. And last I heard, our one direct competitor wasn't doing as well as expected.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Well, CO has to convince people to either A) come over from CoH or B) decide they like super-heroes over fantasy derivative MMOs. So they have their work cut out for them.


Still here, even after all this time!


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beber View Post
This interview is just "communication" at its best, you know, Massively is basically saying "Is that okay with business? Is there any problem with CoX?", and the NCSoft guy is obviously answering "Yeah, everything's fine! It's perfect!".
But, the article that leads to NCSoft's response was really, really good. The point made was very important IMO. Now, we'll just have to see what the future hold, because I don't often believe what "directors of communications" say, and especially not when's it's related to NCSoft.
The article writer predicts an announcement of a second game being worked on by Paragon Studios. But hasn't Posi already hinted as much in some previous speech? I think it was right around the time they changed the name to Paragon Studios.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodoan View Post
The article writer predicts an announcement of a second game being worked on by Paragon Studios. But hasn't Posi already hinted as much in some previous speech? I think it was right around the time they changed the name to Paragon Studios.
There's a mention it on the PS site, I think.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beber View Post
But, the article that leads to NCSoft's response was really, really good.
No it isn't.

Unless you like unsupported hyperbole, I guess- "Make no mistake though: CoH/V’s future hangs by a Going Rogue thread"? Ridiculous.

It's negative speculation by a fan writer, no different from the sort of junk that piles up on this forum except for being less informed on the current state of the game.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
No it isn't.

Unless you like unsupported hyperbole, I guess- "Make no mistake though: CoH/V’s future hangs by a Going Rogue thread"? Ridiculous.

It's negative speculation by a fan writer, no different from the sort of junk that piles up on this forum except for being less informed on the current state of the game.
It's an odd world where you're the pollyanna, Nethergoat.

EDIT: Because if GoRo doesn't bring a sizeable number of players into / back to CoH/V, NCsoft is pretty unlikely to keep maintaining current resources into Paragon Studios for this title. At last official check, there were less than 125k players in CoH/V and I've got reason to believe that this number may have further declined.

The Q3 2009 figures are out for NCsoft and CoH/V's sales are down about 22% quarter-on-quarter and about 13% year-on-year. And that was a quarter that included I16 and the introduction of increased power customisation (Q2 2009 included I14 and MA, as well as I15). Although CoH/V could make its sales revenue target for 2009 - 25000 m Won - it is going to have to have a good Q4 to make it from its current position of about 19 000 m W during a period where it is not releasing any major new content additions (guess we'll see about the Xmas event).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
There's a mention it on the PS site, I think.
There is an old rumour that NCsoft NorthCal might be housing / developing the PS3 titles that NCsoft had planned, but I haven't seen an update on that for a long time.

I did look on the Paragon Studios site for any signs of a new title, but I couldn't see anything specific.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Gray View Post
Not sure this is the right place, but it certainly is CoH/CoV related so here it is.

Massively has a response from NCSoft concerning a rather doom and gloom piece they ran concerning the CoX franchise a few days ago. Not sure if it is anything more than corporate speak, but worth a read I think.

If this should be elsewhere, I apologize.
Wow...are the comments there always so brutal?

I had no idea so much was at stake with Going Rogue, you think someone here would have said something about the future of the entire NCWest division riding on our expansion pack.

I find this comment particularly amusing
Quote:
So, The NCexecs "clearing up" anything just looks worse IMO. Maybe if BABs, Castle or Posi (not SexyJay, what would be the point? The man makes zero sense) I'd be more willing to hear it.
If that's from one of you guys, I'm flattered...but really? You trust me, an animator/VFX artist or Castle, a power designer, over a NCSoft exec who actually knows what they're talking about? Why...because we're chatty here on the forums? Posi I could understand, cause theoretically he'd be the most 'in-the-know'. I would have thought that announcing a long overdue, genuine expansion pack for CoH/CoV could only be viewed as a positive thing for our game. How did someone manage to spin it into a sign of impending doom?

So many comments on NCSoft in relations to unsuccesful games. As someone who was working on Auto Assault when it launched, I've never felt that its failure was due to a lack of support from NCSoft. Quite the opposite, they let us push the launch date quite a ways back for a much needed overhaul and polish phase. Post launch, the game did not do well and rather than completely cut and run, NCSoft still supported the game long enough to try and turn things around. Alas, it just wasn't enough. The game simply failed on it's own merits...but it had more than a fair shot, imo.

I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's backside here, but we're doing pretty damn good for an MMO that's heading toward's its 6th birthday and we plan to be here for a while. There have been a lot of talented people who've helped shape this game over the years, and while there have been mis-steps here and there, we really are trying to make the right decisions for the overall benefit of the game that we're all so invested in. It's a tough gig, we've got a lot of hard work ahead of us, but I really do think that the best days are still to come and I hope you guys will stick around for the ride.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
Because if GoRo doesn't bring a sizeable number of players into / back to CoH/V, NCsoft is pretty unlikely to keep maintaining current resources into Paragon Studios for this title.
Based on...?

Seriously, unless you attend the strategic planning management sessions or sit on the board, that's so bold an assertion I think it's nothing more than you saying something you think makes good sense as if it were a fact.


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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post


If that's from one of you guys, I'm flattered...but really? You trust me, an animator/VFX artist or Castle, a power designer, over a NCSoft exec who actually knows what they're talking about? Why...because we're chatty here on the forums? Posi I could understand, cause theoretically he'd be the most 'in-the-know'. I would have thought that announcing a long overdue, genuine expansion pack for CoH/CoV could only be viewed as a positive thing for our game. How did someone manage to spin it into a sign of impending doom?
to be blunt, you guys generally tell the truth. Most execs are, and while this characterization is hostile, i doubt anyone will find it inaccurate, deceptive spin-masters who dont give a rats -#$% about the customer so long as they can push out the next hollow shiny without alienating an unprofitable number of us. Maybe you dont have access to the same info as the suit, but your info we would trust. this guy, if experience serves me, would sell us all for new floor pads for his car. We appreciate you and castle getting in trouble for us a great deal more than a suit coming out and giving us a hollow press release that we know we cant trust.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Based on...?

Seriously, unless you attend the strategic planning management sessions or sit on the board, that's so bold an assertion I think it's nothing more than you saying something you think makes good sense as if it were a fact.
I suppose it would be fair to base statements like that on NCSofts track record with things like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault, as well as the gutting of NCSoft Europe and the fates of most of the NCSoft EU Mod team. If something isn't delivering the numbers expected NCSoft have shown they are quite happy to shutdown or wind down operations.

I'm not saying that means CoH would be closed down if Going Rogue doesn't do well, but if it doesn't do well then I wouldn't want to be one of the 35 or so new Devs hired about 12-18 months ago (who I assume have been mostly working on GR for the last year or so).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
I suppose it would be fair to base statements like that on NCSofts track record with things like Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault, as well as the gutting of NCSoft Europe and the fates of most of the NCSoft EU Mod team. If something isn't delivering the numbers expected NCSoft have shown they are quite happy to shutdown or wind down operations.

I'm not saying that means CoH would be closed down if Going Rogue doesn't do well, but if it doesn't do well then I wouldn't want to be one of the 35 or so new Devs hired about 12-18 months ago (who I assume have been mostly working on GR for the last year or so).
How does that jive with what BABs said not five posts ago?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
How does that jive with what BABs said not five posts ago?
Pretty well I think. I don't think the entire fate of NCWest is in the hands of GR at all. But I do think NCSoft expect teams & products to return dividends, and if GR doesn't do as well as they are projecting then the development team well may be cut down a bit (or simply reassigned to other products of course). I'm not in the least saying "NCSoft never gave Auto Assault or Tabula Rasa a chance", I'm saying they've shown that they will make tough business decisions if a product doesn't give an expected return

Also, based on what happened with NCSoft Europe and people like Rockjaw sometimes the decisions that have come down from on high have surprised people who you'd expect to be "in the know". In other words much as I respect BaBs as a Developer (and love his posts) I know that in no way would he have details of the high level business & product decisions that NCSoft may make in relation to products he is working on based on returns from that product. (in other words *IF* GR doesn't do as well as expected and NCSoft do announce a cut back on the development team then that development team may well find out when we do).

Note that none of this is particularly DOOM material. I'm just saying that (a) NCSoft have shown in the past they they will make hard decisions if a product doesn't deliver expected results and (b) Devs / Mods working on such products may not have details of the inner workings of business decisions made at the higher levels (which is basically what BaBs himself says 5 posts up).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
Pretty well I think. I don't think the entire fate of NCWest is in the hands of GR at all. But I do think NCSoft expect teams & products to return dividends, and if GR doesn't do as well as they are projecting then the development team well may be cut down a bit (or simply reassigned to other products of course). I'm not in the least saying "NCSoft never gave Auto Assault or Tabula Rasa a chance", I'm saying they've shown that they will make tough business decisions if a product doesn't give an expected return

Also, based on what happened with NCSoft Europe and people like Rockjaw sometimes the decisions that have come down from on high have surprised people who you'd expect to be "in the know". In other words much as I respect BaBs as a Developer (and love his posts) I know that in no way would he have details of the high level business & product decisions that NCSoft may make in relation to products he is working on based on returns from that product. (in other words *IF* GR doesn't do as well as expected and NCSoft do announce a cut back on the development team then that development team may well find out when we do).

Note that none of this is particularly DOOM material. I'm just saying that (a) NCSoft have shown in the past they they will make hard decisions if a product doesn't deliver expected results and (b) Devs / Mods working on such products may not have details of the inner workings of business decisions made at the higher levels (which is basically what BaBs himself says 5 posts up).
I think what the others, and BAB, are trying to say is.

Even if GR flops majorly. NCsoft as shown they're willing to pour money into a money hole of even games that were worse off then CoH could be with a major expansion flopping. Even if we end up with egg on our face NCsoft will clean us off and send us out for another round or two before throwing in the towel.

I have no doubt they WOULD throw it in if things were bleak AND they gave us a few tries to recover.

But we're not there yet. CoH is plenty healthy. GR failing wouldn't be enough to put us into Doomtown.

Or that's what I'm getting from BAB and other people that I'm too lazy to scroll up and read the names of.


 

Posted

So, basically, there are people sitting around here waiting to see if the jerk who wrote this article is correct because a certain competing game came out and fizzled, not doing the trick?

To me I see quite a few people siding with the fact that Going Rogue won't pull in numbers rather than be excited and trying to pull people into the game with what was revealed at HeroCon.

Me, as one of the people who had to watch Vids and Podcasts rather than attend (had a writing deadline...and people still haven't figured out who I am *smirk*), I happen to be excited about the future of CoH and view GR as a step some older MMOs should have taken to keep their players.

Take the former "King" of fantasy MMOs, beginning with an E not a W. If they had overhauled the world, graphically, and made things more casual friendly at the higher levels, they might still be at the top of the heap. Where is this game now? Alive, but with population numbers on par with CoH, maybe lower. That game just celebrated 10 years.

Now, look at Paragon Studios...They are listening to what we want and giving us quite a bit more. I have friends who stopped playing CoH, but when I showed them the Hero Con Vids, they re-activated without flinching. One of them commented that the Banner idea for Halloween was truly original and fun and can not wait to see this years winter event.

Point is, Going Rogue is a good thing, not a bad. Do not let the agrivated Doomsayers win. Get people to take a peek, get them excited, get them waiting with baited breath. Join the revolution! Long Live Praetoria....err wait a minute....getting ahead of myself *smirk*


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
I would have thought that announcing a long overdue, genuine expansion pack for CoH/CoV could only be viewed as a positive thing for our game. How did someone manage to spin it into a sign of impending doom?
*checks location*

This IS the internet.


In general terms, I see Guild Wars is still successful, with a GW 2 just round the corner. Thats a NC West product. I see GR as important as it is a way up getting some new subs (or old subscribers back) for this game, but I really doubt its a make or break deal for the whole of NCW.



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Posted

Paragon Studios' motto is "we'd rather give you entirely new zones than revamp the old zones". This is an approach that's focused on pleasing existing customers at the expense of incoming new customers, and it shows with GR.

Something that a lot of older MMOs have been doing is "revamping the new user experience". LotRO has done work on the early level zones to streamline the quest lines and make it more obvious where a character needs to go at which level. WoW is gearing up to wipe the entire world clean and start again. Even Fallen Earth, in the first month after launching, has made changes to the early level zones to account for player feedback.

Most players agree that the 1-20 game in CoH is somewhat stale and lacking. Since the game launched, there's been some updates to the first three zones (Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row) as well as a small makeover for the Hollows. However, the contact progression is still in the same state it was at the game's launch - a whole bunch of interchangable non-characters who send you on endless street-sweeping missions and to doors in distant zones (before you've gotten a travel power, and there is nothing to indicate that there is a way of getting a jetpack to make travel faster).

Paragon Studios' answer? Make an entirely new early game that requires an additional purchase, and leave the existing early game exactly as it is.

New subscribers are not going to compare the best of your content to the competition. They are not going to buy the game, and then buy the expansion, in order to see the better starting experience. They are going to start playing the game to see if they like it, and they are going to wind up in the Steel Canyon and Skyway content, and in the Mercy Island/Port Oakes mess redside. And they are going to compare *that* to other games.

(Granted, those areas still compare favorably to the Champions early game, but that's no reason to get complacent.)

I love what I'm hearing of Going Rogue so far. I'm looking forward to playing my Praetorian characters in the all-new early game together with all my long-time-playing SGmates. But I realize that while making new early game is fun for me, remaking the *existing* early game is important for the health of the game. I'm willing to accept not getting as many all-new zones if that's what it takes.




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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
Wow...are the comments there always so brutal?

I had no idea so much was at stake with Going Rogue, you think someone here would have said something about the future of the entire NCWest division riding on our expansion pack.

I find this comment particularly amusing


If that's from one of you guys, I'm flattered...but really? You trust me, an animator/VFX artist or Castle, a power designer, over a NCSoft exec who actually knows what they're talking about? Why...because we're chatty here on the forums? Posi I could understand, cause theoretically he'd be the most 'in-the-know'. I would have thought that announcing a long overdue, genuine expansion pack for CoH/CoV could only be viewed as a positive thing for our game. How did someone manage to spin it into a sign of impending doom?

So many comments on NCSoft in relations to unsuccesful games. As someone who was working on Auto Assault when it launched, I've never felt that its failure was due to a lack of support from NCSoft. Quite the opposite, they let us push the launch date quite a ways back for a much needed overhaul and polish phase. Post launch, the game did not do well and rather than completely cut and run, NCSoft still supported the game long enough to try and turn things around. Alas, it just wasn't enough. The game simply failed on it's own merits...but it had more than a fair shot, imo.

I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's backside here, but we're doing pretty damn good for an MMO that's heading toward's its 6th birthday and we plan to be here for a while. There have been a lot of talented people who've helped shape this game over the years, and while there have been mis-steps here and there, we really are trying to make the right decisions for the overall benefit of the game that we're all so invested in. It's a tough gig, we've got a lot of hard work ahead of us, but I really do think that the best days are still to come and I hope you guys will stick around for the ride.
Did you finally teach those Rikti Monkeys to animate, BaBs? Thus freeing you up for forum posting?
If so, here's a whip. Go use it on Jay, willya?

And I do agree with what some of the others have said. You guys care about this game. We as a player base (for the most part) would rather trust you than some suited exec who is only concerned about profit margins and income figures. I know I would, anyway.

And keep up the great work. City of Heroes is just breaking down barriers like your namesake on a Rampage Walk, Dual Pistols, Ultra Mode...keep em coming!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
Paragon Studios' motto is "we'd rather give you entirely new zones than revamp the old zones". This is an approach that's focused on pleasing existing customers at the expense of incoming new customers, and it shows with GR.

Something that a lot of older MMOs have been doing is "revamping the new user experience". LotRO has done work on the early level zones to streamline the quest lines and make it more obvious where a character needs to go at which level. WoW is gearing up to wipe the entire world clean and start again. Even Fallen Earth, in the first month after launching, has made changes to the early level zones to account for player feedback.

Most players agree that the 1-20 game in CoH is somewhat stale and lacking. Since the game launched, there's been some updates to the first three zones (Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row) as well as a small makeover for the Hollows. However, the contact progression is still in the same state it was at the game's launch - a whole bunch of interchangable non-characters who send you on endless street-sweeping missions and to doors in distant zones (before you've gotten a travel power, and there is nothing to indicate that there is a way of getting a jetpack to make travel faster).

Paragon Studios' answer? Make an entirely new early game that requires an additional purchase, and leave the existing early game exactly as it is.

New subscribers are not going to compare the best of your content to the competition. They are not going to buy the game, and then buy the expansion, in order to see the better starting experience. They are going to start playing the game to see if they like it, and they are going to wind up in the Steel Canyon and Skyway content, and in the Mercy Island/Port Oakes mess redside. And they are going to compare *that* to other games.

(Granted, those areas still compare favorably to the Champions early game, but that's no reason to get complacent.)

I love what I'm hearing of Going Rogue so far. I'm looking forward to playing my Praetorian characters in the all-new early game together with all my long-time-playing SGmates. But I realize that while making new early game is fun for me, remaking the *existing* early game is important for the health of the game. I'm willing to accept not getting as many all-new zones if that's what it takes.
Was going to snip some of that, but it's kinda all relevant to my reply.

I think, judging from Posi speeches (although don't quote me on any of this...) I *think* we might be looking at the lower levels getting an across the board revamp with GR/I17. Maybe.

That said, I do agree that it is needed. That is the one and only major fault I can trump up with how the Devs work atm, and thats refusing to revamp some of the earlier content. This is so especially true Blueside, where the low level content is, frankly, Horrible. With a capital H. I ended the Hollows on my latest scrapper at lvl 15, looked around and thought "Great...now what?"
Redside is a bit better, although I am so sick to death of the Mercy content (dont talk to me about running!) At least Oakes has a few really good contacts, some of which I still haven't played yet.

But yeah...1-20 could really, really use a revampe. And not just layout wise. Endurance use, anyone? Especially 14-20, it gets really bad. Certainly not balanced when you run out of end every/every other fight.
YMMV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
With a capital H. I ended the Hollows on my latest scrapper at lvl 15, looked around and thought "Great...now what?"
Faultline surely? Those arcs are pretty fun.

Personally I'd kill for more 25-45 content Blueside and a new zone for the same range red side.

Giving Dark Astoria an epic Magical Apocolypse style series of storylines, ones which could also explain the randomness that it the Halloween events and making it co-op is something I'd love to see happen (I know some people hate co-op zones although with GR basically being "Everything becomes co-operable" it seems the way to go to me).


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
Faultline surely? Those arcs are pretty fun.

Personally I'd kill for more 25-45 content Blueside and a new zone for the same range red side.

Giving Dark Astoria an epic Magical Apocolypse style series of storylines, ones which could also explain the randomness that it the Halloween events and making it co-op is something I'd love to see happen (I know some people hate co-op zones although with GR basically being "Everything becomes co-operable" it seems the way to go to me).
True, Faultline is just such a horror to get to. Seriously, tram line? Please?
I think I just find the contact layout Redside much easier to get my head around. I end up losing track of which zones go and do what blueside. Its al over the place. If we could get the other contacts having the yellow box pop ups like newer contacts (Darren Wade, Sister Airla, Ashley McKnight, etc.) then it might be easier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Interesting.

I'm getting three things out of this:

The original articles are negative, rumour, spin and general shouting off from people who spread rumour, spin and general guff for a living. Lesson one: Don't trust journalists. They lie for a living. (Actually the journo's tend not to, it's the editors that do.)

The rebuttal makes a lot of sense given the user experience (ie me) since CO went live. There was a dip in numbers and now we're back to normal perhaps doing even better than most of 2k9 but execs are also known to lie through their back teeth and no exec in his right mind would ever say "yes, our product's failing miserably, and we're going to can it in the next 12 months."

The last, and most important part is simply this: The CoH franchise is profitable. If it wasn't, NCsoft woudln't have made the heavy investement in buying the IP from Cryptic. They could have canned the game there and then but they know it's a money spinner. It will only ever be endangered if it fails to make money. There is an alternative scenario not discussed: If the CoH franchise doesn't make enough to suit NCsoft globally they might well hive off the operation in a buy out - effectively selling Paragon Studios to a third party. They could do this with CoH where they couldn'twith TR because a) nobody would've wanted TR as a product - it was pretty toxic before it even launched and b)CoH has a proven track record of profitability.



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
Faultline surely? Those arcs are pretty fun.

Personally I'd kill for more 25-45 content Blueside and a new zone for the same range red side.

Giving Dark Astoria an epic Magical Apocolypse style series of storylines, ones which could also explain the randomness that it the Halloween events and making it co-op is something I'd love to see happen (I know some people hate co-op zones although with GR basically being "Everything becomes co-operable" it seems the way to go to me).
Good plan.

I think Boomtown and DA are both well overdue and highly deserving of revamps - there's a lot could be done with them. and two of the three revamps we've had so far were excellent (I'm neutral about the Hollows personally but that's simply opinion - it certainly does seem to be a bit more active than it was old school.)

Those PLUS GR would give the entire game a very fresh feel even for world weary GOB's like me



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk