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You're right. If, in fact, there is no benchmark they have to hit? If, in fact, there is no deadline by which they have to hit it? If, in fact, there is no consequence for failing to hit some benchmark or deadline? They're screwed. Because given NCsoft's history, nobody in their right mind would believe them if they said so. You are absolutely right that that's not fair. Which is why NCsoft should never have painted themselves into that corner in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
So damned if they do, damned if they don't. Plus Paragon is left holding the baggage of trying to prove a negative if there really is no such benchmark, or one hasn't been expressed to them.
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I think it was the Tabula Rasa thing that screwed them up the hardest, that angered the most people. Because literally right up until the day before they announced the server shutdown date, they were promising new development that people were going to love. Literally: the day before. As late as the day before, developers were giving interviews to Massively and other game sites, and posting emails to Tabula Rasa fan websites, about the future development schedule, and how wonderful all the new features were going to be. People who were pointing at how far TaRa had gone over budget, who were pointing at how little commitment to the game the Garriotts themselves were showing, people who were pointing to visible in-game evidence that subscription numbers were sliding fast, were told by other players to shut up, that we didn't know what we were talking about, because NCsoft was promising everybody that the game still had a great future ... and then boom.
Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue? I can't think of one. Which means that we have even LESS assurance of a future for City of Heroes, if Going Rogue isn't a huge hit, than Tabula Rasa subscribers were being given right up until the day before the shutoff date announcement.
I'd like to think that NCsoft's commitment to this game is open-ended, that they don't care what happens to the subscriber numbers, that they're going to keep the current development staff at 50 or more no matter what happens, that the servers would never be shut off no matter what happens to the financials. I would very much like to believe that. But I'd have a hard time believing that of any company, and I sure as heck couldn't make myself believe it regarding NCsoft.
So, again, I ask: what metrics has NCsoft set for "minimum success" for CoH and/or CoH:GR, with what deadline, how are those metrics doing, and when and how will we know?
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Well...|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
"too emotionally attached to view things reasonably"
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| to "bat-nuts insane social pariah " . |
*Hops under the desk and begins looking for spycams*
If it's behind me, I hope you're SERIOUSLY disturbed by the buttcrack showing now! That'll teach ya!
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| and given the lack of ability to attach nuance or tone into posts, |
One of the reasons I tend towards the "War and Peace" style posts.
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occasionally a poster will sound nuts and be kidding, and other times, they are actually nuts. so an actual sarcasm detector would be quite a benefit on forums
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But, hopefully people who've met me will agree, it's usually a friendly sort of nuts.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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They never tell us - Power Customization was a complete surprise, and so was GR itself - until those e-mails went out directing us to the new GR site, we had totally no idea that it was being worked on - and we knew nothing about Power Customization until Positron posted here to tell us that I16 was not going to be GR.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue?
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The AE was also a secret until they told us about it.
So, to turn the question around, how many features have we been told about in advance before?
About the only thing I can think of is 14, as it was originally going to be I13, but the AE had to be moved back an Issue.
Apart from that, we've never been told what they're working on very far in advance.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Cut the doom.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue? I can't think of one.
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How much in the way of proposed features for issues 14, 15, and 16 were put out after issue 12?
Also, don't ignore the fact that GR is a fairly massive undertaking (6-8 months here).
Once we get closer to the timeframe of GR going live, we'll hear about stuff coming after.
Also, look at how badly the base editing population boiled over with the retraction of the new base editor.
Why would they start heaping MORE onto their plate right now when the plate is already overflowing? Especially if something they promise gets kicked back further or dropped for some other reason?
Oh yeah. Because they're masochists who LIKE having their player-base tear chunks out of them for stupid reasons!
Also, as to your request for metrics. The correct answer for that is "Buy enough stock to make that demand. Until then, it's none of your damn business."
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I can't remember a proposed feature that the developers put on a timeline before GR. I guess the level 40-50 content for both COH and COV would count. But they have always done their best to not say "We will have this done, then we will do this, by this date." Precisely because if it doesn't happen for some reason, people complain. Oh yeah, the City Vault would count I guess.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue? I can't think of one. Which means that we have even LESS assurance of a future for City of Heroes, if Going Rogue isn't a huge hit, than Tabula Rasa subscribers were being given right up until the day before the shutoff date announcement.
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So the fact that they have not announced any features for after an expansion that won't even be out for 6 more months, doesn't bother me in the least. They haven't even gotten around to announcing stuff for the next issue (Which will of course be garbage, just ask EvilRyu.
) so why would they be talking about what is coming out next year?
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
----------------------
Fighting The Future Trilogy
----------------------
They don't even tell us little things - like Walk being planned - we only knew that when it appeared on the Test server - and the same with the new Halloween stuff.
So, assuming they're adding something new for the winter event, we're not going to find out until it's on Test - and the event is like only a month or so away.
Or what about the next booster pack? All we know about that is that Positon said "ninjas are cool" at Hero Con.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think we should label this a PMCSS: Post MMO Closure Stress Syndrome.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
You're right. If, in fact, there is no benchmark they have to hit? If, in fact, there is no deadline by which they have to hit it? If, in fact, there is no consequence for failing to hit some benchmark or deadline? They're screwed. Because given NCsoft's history, nobody in their right mind would believe them if they said so. You are absolutely right that that's not fair. Which is why NCsoft should never have painted themselves into that corner in the first place.
I think it was the Tabula Rasa thing that screwed them up the hardest, that angered the most people. Because literally right up until the day before they announced the server shutdown date, they were promising new development that people were going to love. Literally: the day before. As late as the day before, developers were giving interviews to Massively and other game sites, and posting emails to Tabula Rasa fan websites, about the future development schedule, and how wonderful all the new features were going to be. People who were pointing at how far TaRa had gone over budget, who were pointing at how little commitment to the game the Garriotts themselves were showing, people who were pointing to visible in-game evidence that subscription numbers were sliding fast, were told by other players to shut up, that we didn't know what we were talking about, because NCsoft was promising everybody that the game still had a great future ... and then boom. Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue? I can't think of one. Which means that we have even LESS assurance of a future for City of Heroes, if Going Rogue isn't a huge hit, than Tabula Rasa subscribers were being given right up until the day before the shutoff date announcement. I'd like to think that NCsoft's commitment to this game is open-ended, that they don't care what happens to the subscriber numbers, that they're going to keep the current development staff at 50 or more no matter what happens, that the servers would never be shut off no matter what happens to the financials. I would very much like to believe that. But I'd have a hard time believing that of any company, and I sure as heck couldn't make myself believe it regarding NCsoft. So, again, I ask: what metrics has NCsoft set for "minimum success" for CoH and/or CoH:GR, with what deadline, how are those metrics doing, and when and how will we know? |
to hyper: it was a more general post there, i don't actually have a take on you so no editorial was implied. so no snark at you more than a casual observation about how it is hard to tell intent on forums where rationality is not only not assumed, but is sometimes conspicuously absent.
now on to brad. honestly, i am not going to say you are being unreasonable, but do you really think there is anything that ncsoft can do that WOULD satisfy you? given that you appear to have been bitten by them in the past, and are currently unlikely to trust them, I doubt that anything from them would encourage you any more than an assurance from a suit would mollify me. Bottom line is what will happen will happen, we have no way of affecting it above what we already have, trying to get our friends to play, and in game helping flagging players so that they stay around and keep paying the light bills, beyond that we can do nothing. knowing that we have a kill number would just give the doomcriers fuel to their theories that coh is on a deah-walk, and would be co-opted by everyone with an agenda that without immediate additions to bases, pvp, asian costumes(my own pet whinge)or whatever their pet peeve is, then the game will go below the number and we are all doomed, basically what they do now, but with the unearned credibility of having a real number to throw in the developers face in their existing rants. they would go from being a misinformed mob to an armed misinformed mob.
I doubt anyone is naive enough to think that they will keep the full staffing on hand after the issue launches, Standard procedure seems to be to draw on large amounts of extra resources that are intended to be paid for with the price tag of the expansion, the hope is simply that the ncsoft guys dont pare things down to post cov levels, which seems less likely since unlike back then, nc is getting all of the pie, rather than sharing it with cryptic. Its also crazy to think that paragon and nc dont want rogue to sell well, wether or not there is a kill number attached to it, they will want some return on investment, but announcing that there is a kill number would only serve to panic the players into thinking that the game may be doomed, so no use paying for the expansion.
So honestly, this is a great deal of fan speculation based on possibly relevant and possibly irrelevant events that we have seen in the past, but if we dont understand the full setting, and dont trust those who try to tell us it, kind of a waste of time to tell us things really. we wont believe it anyhow.
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Walk didn't seem planned to me. It was BABs side project while he waited to do work on his normal stuff.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They don't even tell us little things - like Walk being planned - we only knew that when it appeared on the Test server - and the same with the new Halloween stuff.
So, assuming they're adding something new for the winter event, we're not going to find out until it's on Test - and the event is like only a month or so away. Or what about the next booster pack? All we know about that is that Positon said "ninjas are cool" at Hero Con. |
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So, essentially, you'd like to believe that NCSoft are a bunch of people without an iota of business sense. |
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
I'd like to think that NCsoft's commitment to this game is open-ended, that they don't care what happens to the subscriber numbers, that they're going to keep the current development staff at 50 or more no matter what happens, that the servers would never be shut off no matter what happens to the financials. I would very much like to believe that. But I'd have a hard time believing that of any company, and I sure as heck couldn't make myself believe it regarding NCsoft.
So, again, I ask: what metrics has NCsoft set for "minimum success" for CoH and/or CoH:GR, with what deadline, how are those metrics doing, and when and how will we know? |
They and every MMO operator, are not doing this for charity, nor out of their goodness of their hearts. Of course they will have minimum acceptable levels of revenue before they cut back on staff or outright can the game. Every company does.
And I'm sorry, the writing was on the wall for TR almost since the day it came out. It was a mess, over budget and poorly received. That's a recipe for getting shut down. Anyone who didn't see that one coming...
But again, you've claimedperviously that NCSoft shut down multiple games after paid expansions were issued. Examples please, or I'm gonna have to throw the [WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS] flag.
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fixed?
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
It was a more general post there; I don't actually have a take on you so no editorial was implied. So no snark at you more than a casual observation about how it is hard to tell intent on forums where rationality is not only not assumed, but is sometimes conspicuously absent.
Now on to brad, honestly, I am not going to say you are being unreasonable, but do you really think there is anything that NCsoft can do that WOULD satisfy you? Given that you appear to have been bitten by them in the past, and are currently unlikely to trust them, I doubt that anything from them would encourage you any more than an assurance from a suit would mollify me. Bottom line is what will happen will happen, we have no way of affecting it above what we already have, trying to get our friends to play, and in game helping flagging players so that they stay around and keep paying the light bills, beyond that we can do nothing, knowing that we have a kill number would just give the doom criers fuel to their theories that CoH is on a death-walk, and would be co-opted by everyone with an agenda that without immediate additions to bases, PvP, Asian costumes(my own pet whinge)or whatever their pet peeve is, then the game will go below the number and we are all doomed, basically what they do now, but with the unearned credibility of having a real number to throw in the developers face in their existing rants. I doubt anyone is naive enough to think that they will keep the full staffing on hand after the issue launches, Standard procedure seems to be to draw on large amounts of extra resources that are intended to be paid for with the price tag of the expansion, the hope is simply that the NCsoft guys dont pare things down to post CoV levels, which seems less likely since unlike back then, NC is getting all of the pie, rather than sharing it with cryptic. Its also crazy to think that paragon and NC dont want rogue to sell well, whether or not there is a kill number attached to it, they will want some return on investment, but announcing that there is a kill number would only serve to panic the players into thinking that the game may be doomed, so no use paying for the expansion. So honestly, this is a great deal of fan speculation based on possibly relevant and possibly irrelevant events that we have seen in the past, but if we dont understand the full setting, and dont trust those who try to tell us it, kind of a waste of time to tell us things really. We wont believe it anyhow. |
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Actually, this seems like another one of those traps to me.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They don't even tell us little things - like Walk being planned - we only knew that when it appeared on the Test server - and the same with the new Halloween stuff.
|
Back in Jack's day they made a lot of promises they never kept. These days, they're quiet on things up until the last possible moment.
As a programmer I know it's easy to claim you'll do something, and then in the thick of things see that it's going to be way harder than you thought, maybe even impossible to deliver. Especially when working with a system that's 5.5 years old that you weren't around for the conception of so just have notes and theories to go off of.
If they did start saying things like "Hey we're adding Walking," and then it turns out it's way more trouble than it's worth and they come back and say "Nevermind," guess what kind of people would be making threads yelling about betrayal and lying devs? The same ones that are here saying they should tell us more.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I think you forgot Darryn. He came in the same Issue as Ashley, and you don't seem to have him listed anywhere. His arc isn't long (3-4 mission, was that it?) but it's still a pretty good one, especially the final mission.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Issue 12 Content
Hero Montague 5 Missions plus Fedex and crafting Percy Winkly 5 Fedex and Door Villain Ashley McKnight (i) 5 Fedex and Door Ashley McKnight (ii) 3 Missions Both ITF 4 Missions Repeatable contact |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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the vault comes to mind. It was a neat social networking type thing, but apparently it got ugly and now posters have fashioned into a blunt object to whack at the developers with.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
A
If they did start saying things like "Hey we're adding Walking," and then it turns out it's way more trouble than it's worth and they come back and say "Nevermind," guess what kind of people would be making threads yelling about betrayal and lying devs? The same ones that are here saying they should tell us more. |
Thanks Sam, that post was written over the course of a good 30 mins, with constant interuptions. He slipped through.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Quite the contrary, although I wasn't the one being addressed here. If AE demonstrates anything, it is actually how DIFFICULT it is to produce quality work. There are now over 340,000 player written mission arcs. If, of that number, even 1000 would be considered good enough to be put into the game all things being equal, I'd be very surprised. So as a consumer, or editor as the case may be, you are forced to delve through the other 339,000 to find the 1,000 good ones?| So you both think AE is mostly good for producing stories over reheated leftovers and that producing new interesting content is easy because of what AE shows us... |
Nearly an impossible undertaking.
So what it means is that the relatively few good ones tend to get drowned by the sea of bad ones.
The other thing it shows is that 'different' is often mistaken for 'good.' Yes, those 1000 arcs out of 340,000 are 'good.' But there is also a massively larger pool of talent working to produce them than they have at NCSoft West. And I think more or less it's a function of 'fresh eyes' more than anything else.
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Electric Control. It is in the works, no specific ETA. Could be before GR (I can only wish...), could be after.
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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Out of curiosity, can anybody name even one proposed feature that the developers have put on a timeline for after Going Rogue? I can't think of one.
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Character index
DDooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo0000000000000 00000000000OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo m!!!!1
/e breath in
Sorry, just to get that outta the system.
People need to watch The Dark Knight more. It's a great example of 'Life, and excrement, happens.'
CoX might fail. It might not. It might, one day in the distant future, stand triumphant over the broken corpses of CO, DCUO and, hey, WoW.
It could happen. Doesn't mean it WILL. It might flop. Doesn't mean it WILL.
Play the game. Enjoy it. Leave the worrying to someone else. Have a little faith in the Devs, eh? =]
Oh, I nearly forgot!
Why...So...SERIOUS?!
Keheheheheahahaha!!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It's Trekker, of which I am one, and I am not flocking anywhere. |
Originally Posted by Texarkana
Trekkies will definitely flock to it and probably hurt a lot of games' susbscriber bases at least temporarily but, frankly, I think cryptic probably should be more concerned about cannibalizing their own playerbase. That is, assuming any significant number of people who bought CO memebrships for STO beta access are still even playing CO....
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And thank you for your post in this thread, BaB's. My grandma told me once that If I want to make the world seem like a much better place just keep the TV off for a couple weeks. I don't even have a TV anymore. So I'm no longer prone to put a lot of value into speculation and hyperbole. Right now CoH is doing great, so I'm happy. As soon as worrying about anything has a positive effect I'll be the first one to do it. But until then I got some bad guys to take down in MY game.
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The Trekkies will fill flock to it as well.
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Originally Posted by Indiramourning
It's Trekker, of which I am one, and I am not flocking anywhere.
And thank you for your post in this thread, BaB's. My grandma told me once that If I want to make the world seem like a much better place just keep the TV off for a couple weeks. I don't even have a TV anymore. So I'm no longer prone to put a lot of value into speculation and hyperbole. Right now CoH is doing great, so I'm happy. As soon as worrying about anything has a positive effect I'll be the first one to do it. But until then I got some bad guys to take down in MY game. |
im reading that as slightly naughty, am i wrong?
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
im reading that as slightly naughty, am i wrong?
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Not totally, no
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm pretty sure if they did it would be considered a successful MMO.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not totally, no
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1. Go back in time to about half a year after CoH is first released so that the new shininess has worn off.
2. Put a MMORPG on the market with a more popular genre from a more well known company with a proven IP.
3. Grow that other MMORPG into a monster that has over 10 million subscribers.
Now *that* will surely kill CoH!
*Climbs into the TARDIS*
I'll show you!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.