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Pocket D. Learn it, love it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
True, Faultline is just such a horror to get to. Seriously, tram line? Please?
I think I just find the contact layout Redside much easier to get my head around. I end up losing track of which zones go and do what blueside. Its al over the place. If we could get the other contacts having the yellow box pop ups like newer contacts (Darren Wade, Sister Airla, Ashley McKnight, etc.) then it might be easier. |
I chalk it up to another round of DOOOOOOOOOM, made slightly worse than usual by CO fanboys and websites trolling to stir up publicity. This game's doing fine and has been for years.
Aurgh, for the love of Pete, NOT MORE CO-OP!
Sorry, that is one bug-bear I have. RWZ makes *sense*. Its a warzone. Its them going down, or us.
Cimerora...ok, given that would rip the fabric of time as we know it apart, ok, fair enough. Although I still know some villains who would side with 'Them'.
DA? Most magical villains would join in the chaos, plunder the goods, or generally use it to their advantage. Co-op on smaller stuff doesn't make sense.
Maybe make Eden or something a co-op warzone, fix up the Hamidon raids and make the DE wage their own war (Devour the City! Consume civilisation! Cast down the fleshlings!)
That I could believe. Co-op DA? Just revamp it, make it have a range of missions like the Hollows and make it fun to play.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'd love for the devs to stop making new zones and revamp some of the other zones in CoH/Paragon. Like Dark Astoria or Boomtown. But the main thing I'd love to see is them make the contacts give their cell # after the 1st or 2nd mission and not after the 2nd story arc is done with. :P
I'd also go through the missions and get rid of redundant repetitive missions, like hunts or 'go talk to' type missions. This means in most/all TFs.
With that 'issue' I'd like to see 2 or so more SFs added redside.
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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To be honest I'm not sure I see your logic. The Rikti Raids and the RWZ are fine for villains to join in to as well because it's a Big Threat, but DA isn't, even if it was tied to the Zombie Raids, Deadly Apocolypse and given a new storyline with an equally Big Threat (but magical based).|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Aurgh, for the love of Pete, NOT MORE CO-OP!
Sorry, that is one bug-bear I have. RWZ makes *sense*. Its a warzone. Its them going down, or us. Cimerora...ok, given that would rip the fabric of time as we know it apart, ok, fair enough. Although I still know some villains who would side with 'Them'. DA? Most magical villains would join in the chaos, plunder the goods, or generally use it to their advantage. Co-op on smaller stuff doesn't make sense. Maybe make Eden or something a co-op warzone, fix up the Hamidon raidsand make the DE wage their own war (Devour the City! Consume civilisation! Cast down the fleshlings!) That I could believe. Co-op DA? Just revamp it, make it have a range of missions like the Hollows and make it fun to play. |
A lot of my reasoning behind it is to give DA a purpose, and to give Villains more zones to explore.
But on your "Chaos" point, one nice thing to do might be to have two storylines in the one zone, one of which more Chaotic Villains (or Roguish Heroes) could go for instead. Of course then your problem might be what happens if you join a PuG who is doing the "opposite" storyline. (the same could be said for Going Rogue of course, which will be interesting).
Hmmm. I appear to be meandering way off-topic. Soz
What I love about the original article is that StarTrek Online will apparently be Going Rogue's big competitor when it's released. And that it's a fight that GR can't possibly hope to win. I just find it amusing from a doom-crying perspective.
"Champions is going to come out, steal all of CoH's subscribers, and completely destroy it! DOOOOOOOOM!!!
...er... wait? CO fizzled?
StarTrek Online is going to come out, steal all of CoH Going Rogue's subscribers, and completely destroy it! DOOOOOOOOM!!!"
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Trekkies will definitely flock to it and probably hurt a lot of games' susbscriber bases at least temporarily but, frankly, I think cryptic probably should be more concerned about cannibalizing their own playerbase. That is, assuming any significant number of people who bought CO memebrships for STO beta access are still even playing CO....
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Originally Posted by Xaphan
What I love about the original article is that StarTrek Online will apparently be Going Rogue's big competitor when it's released. And that it's a fight that GR can't possibly hope to win. I just find it amusing from a doom-crying perspective.
"Champions is going to come out, steal all of CoH's subscribers, and completely destroy it! DOOOOOOOOM!!! ...er... wait? CO fizzled? StarTrek Online is going to come out, steal all of CoH Going Rogue's subscribers, and completely destroy it! DOOOOOOOOM!!!" |
@Texarkana
@Thexder
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I use the D to get to Faultline so often I completely forgot there's a train station on the other side of the gate to Skyway. |
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Pocket D. Learn it, love it.
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No offense BaBs but you guys do have alot riding on GR, more so than you realize. The past 6 issues have been garbage. Considering how easy it is for you guys to make missions (from just looking at how the AE is) there is no reason why we shouldnt have had *** loads of dev content post AE. I am looking forward to GR beta but only to know whether I am going to keep playing CoX or to just play Aion only. There are alot of glaring problems in CoX that have yet to be addressed and depending on if alot of that gets cleared up that will determine how well GR does. |
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Wow...are the comments there always so brutal?
I had no idea so much was at stake with Going Rogue, you think someone here would have said something about the future of the entire NCWest division riding on our expansion pack. I find this comment particularly amusing If that's from one of you guys, I'm flattered...but really? You trust me, an animator/VFX artist or Castle, a power designer, over a NCSoft exec who actually knows what they're talking about? Why...because we're chatty here on the forums? Posi I could understand, cause theoretically he'd be the most 'in-the-know'. I would have thought that announcing a long overdue, genuine expansion pack for CoH/CoV could only be viewed as a positive thing for our game. How did someone manage to spin it into a sign of impending doom? So many comments on NCSoft in relations to unsuccesful games. As someone who was working on Auto Assault when it launched, I've never felt that its failure was due to a lack of support from NCSoft. Quite the opposite, they let us push the launch date quite a ways back for a much needed overhaul and polish phase. Post launch, the game did not do well and rather than completely cut and run, NCSoft still supported the game long enough to try and turn things around. Alas, it just wasn't enough. The game simply failed on it's own merits...but it had more than a fair shot, imo. I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's backside here, but we're doing pretty damn good for an MMO that's heading toward's its 6th birthday and we plan to be here for a while. There have been a lot of talented people who've helped shape this game over the years, and while there have been mis-steps here and there, we really are trying to make the right decisions for the overall benefit of the game that we're all so invested in. It's a tough gig, we've got a lot of hard work ahead of us, but I really do think that the best days are still to come and I hope you guys will stick around for the ride. |
To be honest this will be the first time in all my time being subscribed to CoX that I might actually end up quitting. I been thru all the statesman's vision for the game changes, all of castle's heavy handed nerfs, stood by as our game markets became a ceasepool of greed and corruption, and patiently waited out the lack of real content. Well at this point I am done waiting and hope what you guys are making is worth the wait.
So far I am not impressed based on the hero-con stuff and thats mostly due to not allowing you to choose any AT you want to start on any side at creation. Not everyone is going to want to go thru the GR arcs just to make a hero brute or stalker, or even a villain tanker. The other issue that I know is going to give you guys more grief in the long run is why you guys dont want to merge the hero/villain markets. Essentially what you are doing is going to kill 1 side of the game. These are just a few things that needed to be pointed out as some form of a wake up call. For some of us players yes this is CoX last chance.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Pocket D. Learn it, love it.
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Also for faultline the Skyway Greenline is what 100 yards or so from the door.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
To answer your question BaBs, yes. They ARE always that brutal. I pop over to massively about once a week to read for updates and news that I might have missed or any specials they might run that would interest me but I avoid the comment link like the plague. It's like Massively is a magnet for all those stereotypical rage!nerds you see in movies who sit in their mothers attic eating mini-pizzas, wearing a towel cape and complaining about how the battle mechanic of CoX makes no sense because it's not based on the standard d20 rules for combat from 3rd edition DnD. (Note I have no idea if this is true, just the best nerdrage I could think of.) They have nothing better to do than sit around and *****.
On the other hand, I'll agree with most everyone else here that we could use and issue after GR that focuses on revamping our existing zones in need of work. While it may not seem like something terribly productive to the development team, it'll make all those zones that we've been looking at for five years look like they got a fresh coat of paint. Especially if a graphical update is included with the package. Looking at the screens from GR, Praetoria looks like it almost belongs in a different game. I'm thinking we could use a remodel of the Atlas statue, some re-draws of textures in hi-res, a few details updated here and there to make them at least close to on-level with the new zones. Then toss in a revamp to how the mission lines work, kind of guide players in the right direction a little better and in those zones that need it, toss in a few new contacts (Kings Row could use one or two to be sure).
Not saying that ALL the zones need to be redone entirely, but some could use the makeover. As people said, DA and Boomtown could definitely be made into something fun. Especially with the events of issue 15 and the 5th Column now wandering the streets I could see Boomtown turned into something similar to Recluses Victory or Rikti Warzone (albeit without the co-op status since it wouldn't make a ton of sense) against the 5th. Have them convert the old Freedom Phalanx HQ into a sort of base of operations and have players fighting for territory against them. Take enough territory and eventually they send in Reichsman to stomp you into submission and you have to rope in a whole zone of heroes to take him down. That'd make for an epic event with mechanics that are already in place. DA could REALLY benefit from some of this as well. If a friend hadn't pointed me to it when I first started playing as a place to hunt masks for a badge and just generally for the fun creepy atmosphere then I'd probably still not have visited it to date, or even known it existed until the name started popping up in zone announcements.
Anywho, that's just my two cents. I know Paragon Studios is going strong and Going Rogue is just indication of that. Heck, if GR flops and CoH proves to not be the cash cow the execs want, didn't they state that the rebranding as Paragon Studios was to show devotion to the CoX franchise? They could just as easily go "Okay, CoX isn't pulling the numbers we want. Think we should start working on CoH 2.0?" You never know what they might do. Either way, I'm looking forward to many many years ahead of CoH-y goodness.
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That's one of the things that makes me feel that hanging high expectations on the subscription effects of GR isn't really sensible. It's not as if GR is CoH2, or somehow re-imagining this game from the ground up. Everything we know about it so far of is a tweak of or expansion on the existing game and its core mechanics and engine. We know of some new capabilities (morality system, for example), and there will be new zones and new story content, but nothing radically different from CoH/V as it stands now. My expectation for the features we don't yet know about is that they will be similar in this regard.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Paragon Studios' motto is "we'd rather give you entirely new zones than revamp the old zones". This is an approach that's focused on pleasing existing customers at the expense of incoming new customers, and it shows with GR.
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If true, that means that GR is going to (a) mostly affect subs by appealing to people who already like CoH/V as it stands but might be burned out or looking for something new, (b) hopefully keep existing subs interested, and (c) maybe bring in new people who might have liked CoH/V before but who either weren't around for its previous box releases or not attracted by the previous package/marketing.
To me, that sounds like something you hope will bring in a nice but possibly limited-duration peak in new/reactivated subs, maybe reset us to a slightly higher subscriber baseline, and hopefully flatten the decay rate of existing subs. My guess is not for dramatic long-term changes in subs rates, so it doesn't make sense to me that decisions about dramatic staff reallocations should be hung specifically on the effect of such a release.
Naturally, I don't expect NCSoft to ignore performance and pitch money and resources into something they don't think has a long-term payback. But I am not at all convinced that GR's subscription results make sense as a benchmark to shift direction on.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Translation, because I am not happy, everyone else must be unhappy too, and if I am ready to unsubscribe over not getting the changes I want, clearly everyone is about to quit with me.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
No offense BaBs but you guys do have alot riding on GR, more so than you realize. The past 6 issues have been garbage. Considering how easy it is for you guys to make missions (from just looking at how the AE is) there is no reason why we shouldnt have had *** loads of dev content post AE. I am looking forward to GR beta but only to know whether I am going to keep playing CoX or to just play Aion only. There are alot of glaring problems in CoX that have yet to be addressed and depending on if alot of that gets cleared up that will determine how well GR does.
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Seriously, Ryu, you cry wolf too much for that kind of post to have a lot of weight - if such a post ever could have much weight.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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They probably just didn't want to alarm you. But haven't you wondered why the free donut selection has been cut back to only powered sugar covered?|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Wow...are the comments there always so brutal?
I had no idea so much was at stake with Going Rogue, you think someone here would have said something about the future of the entire NCWest division riding on our expansion pack. |
But seriously, the original article is nonsensical. Yes, if Going Rogue fails to bring in much money it will certainly have a negative effect on Co*'s funding in the future. But that's still a far cry from having its existence hanging by a thread. The likely worst case scenario would be to see Co* return to the lower staffing it had before NCSoft bought it out. It's not clear to me that simply failing to bring in lots of subscribers is automatically enough to trigger that worst case scenario, either. I think it would take a sizeable decrease in subscriptions to do that.
Massively seems to be ignoring just how hard it is to kill off established MMOs. Anarchy Online survived its disastrous launch and is still going: does anyone think The Old Republic (or as I like to call it, MMOtOR) is going to finish it off? The failure of Legions probably sealed Asheron's Call 2's fate, but that game was far weaker than Co* seems to be. Meanwhile, four years after the original AC failed to bring in lots of new subscribers with Throne of Destiny, it's still alive. In a much more crowded genre.
If City of Heroes were really on the brink of elimination, NCSoft would not have hired and trained so many new staffers to work on it: the expansion would have been made by the existing development team with as little extra support as possible. Going Rogue is obviously important to the future of Co*, but it's not a last-ditch effort to save the game.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
The rebuttal makes a lot of sense given the user experience (ie me) since CO went live. There was a dip in numbers and now we're back to normal perhaps doing even better than most of 2k9 but execs are also known to lie through their back teeth and no exec in his right mind would ever say "yes, our product's failing miserably, and we're going to can it in the next 12 months."
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Actually, I think the rebuttal is a big mistake. Having been a fan of the game for all 5 years, I've *NEVER* seen a marketing executive make such a defensive and unusually direct "that's so not true!" response to negative press before. It just smacks of desperation somehow - usually NCsoft just brushes off negative press or sweeps it quietly under the rug so as not to draw more attention. This rebuttal however does the complete opposite... Couple this with the front page reminder coincidently posted on the same day reminding everyone that now's the time to cash in on the Loyalty program...
Well, let's just say that true or not true, suddenly the original article's "state of the game" assessment with dark and gloomy speculation for 2010 appears to be a lot more accurate than I'd originally given it credit for - especially as NCSoft's marketing exec responds to the last question regarding future content with enforced emphasis on everything that's been been done in years past up till now. This makes me think that there really isn't anything firm in mind beyond GR right now - despite all the abstract and promising "trust us" buzz that came out of HeroCon. And that's not very reassuring at all.
If NCsoft is smart, they'll offer the loyalty program a third time next Spring when GR goes live - if not, then I think now might be NCSoft's last chance to cash in on player loyalty before the brand's demise by Q3/Q4 2010 as the original article is speculating. In which case, Marketing's unlikely rebuff of the original article makes a whole lot of sense... who needs anyone talking trash about the franchise becoming tired and dated when you're still trying to get players to buy in on the hopes of the third (and final?) retail expansion pack that'll make everything feel fresh and new. Whether it actually works out or not is a whole different matter (and if it does, they'll say they had the brand's best interests in mind all along; if doesn't however...).
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's backside here, but we're doing pretty damn good for an MMO that's heading toward's its 6th birthday and we plan to be here for a while.
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I'm not saying you or any of the Devs should hit the "panic button" just yet but definitely make sure you've got an exit strategy ready to go just in case Korea decides to pull the plug unexpectedly on plans for Year 6.
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There's a big difference between an expansion to a game that's already doing well, and launch of a game that doesn't turn a profit.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax
Pretty well I think. I don't think the entire fate of NCWest is in the hands of GR at all. But I do think NCSoft expect teams & products to return dividends, and if GR doesn't do as well as they are projecting then the development team well may be cut down a bit (or simply reassigned to other products of course). I'm not in the least saying "NCSoft never gave Auto Assault or Tabula Rasa a chance", I'm saying they've shown that they will make tough business decisions if a product doesn't give an expected return
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We've been told before that CoH is in no risk of being shut down. We never have and never will pull WoW numbers, but that doesn't mean we're anywhere near in danger of being cut off. I believe at some point a dev said that even if we lost half our subscribers that we'd still be fine. This was somewhere in response to a doom post about sub numbers or a conspiracy theory about the pay packs.
We've also been told that pay packs aren't being used to keep the game supported. We've been told, by Posi I believe, that they help hire new people and pay for extra hours so we can get things faster.
In order for GR to be a risk to the game and some people's jobs, not only would it have to be so bad that nobody buys it to start out with (which, let me tell you, isn't happening), but it would also somehow have to cause more than half of the current subscriber base to drop.
The only reason they'd make a tough business decision and shut games down or let people go would be if the company is losing money. It's not "We had hoped GR would sell X copies, but it sold 200 less than that, so you're all fired." For CoH to start hemorrhaging money, GR would have to do something pretty drastic.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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From the original fan-written "Vicarious Existence" article the second poster in this thread cited as the start of all this :
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That's all you need to read of the aritcle to decide not to take it very seriously. The article's author has no more idea what numbers have been "told" than you or I or the Man in the Moon. Or that ANY number was "told." Unless, of course, that author possesses some super Joe Biden secret ninja skills with a side order of Chuck Norris telepathy.| ...I do see a large risk to Paragon Studios if GoRo doesnt pull in the numbers theyve told management it will. |
This is all just the author's imagination. From that little imagined acorn, the author's grown his whole oak tree of an article: Some GR performance number was arrived at and/or promised. so if that number isn't arrived at, DOOOOOOOM!!! Goodbye not only COH but Paragon Studios ... even NCSoft West!
Boiled down, the NC Soft respsonse was: that's not how we do businsess, that's not the way it works here. Here's some examples why. Pretty staright forward if you ask me. What else do you expect them to say? "Get out of your parent's basement, kid, and get a life!"?
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Aye, I sort of agree with you (in that GR now doing well won't mean the servers close down). However given that most of the EU Community Staff has already been let go (sorry... restructured) I'm not so confident in the statement that the only way people may be let go is if CoH actually starts actively losing money. I think if it underperforms significantly then there is a danger that Paragon Studios could find itself cut back to a "holding levels" number of staff, enough to produce Issue Updates etc but not the number we have now.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
The only reason they'd make a tough business decision and shut games down or let people go would be if the company is losing money. It's not "We had hoped GR would sell X copies, but it sold 200 less than that, so you're all fired." For CoH to start hemorrhaging money, GR would have to do something pretty drastic.
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Massively is about the most negative, vile, hostile worthless community on the net in my experience. Take all the usual drama you get out of an MMO forum and throw them all together in one place where they can argue for their "team" and you get a decent start. It's like a perpetual console war forum; perhaps worse.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Wow...are the comments there always so brutal?
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And here's the thing -- I don't think people gave the original blogger much credence -- just another fanboi spouting gibberish on the web that should have gone unnnoticed. But, given that massively decided to comment on it and give it far more visibility, I think NCsoft had to make a response. Was it appropriate? I believe so given they opted to talk to massively and not the blogger.
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Originally Posted by Doc_Hornet
From the original fan-written "Vicarious Existence" article the second poster in this thread cited as the start of all this :
That's all you need to read of the aritcle to decide not to take it very seriously. The article's author has no more idea what numbers have been "told" than you or I or the Man in the Moon. Or that ANY number was "told." Unless, of course, that author possesses some super Joe Biden secret ninja skills with a side order of Chuck Norris telepathy. This is all just the author's imagination. From that little imagined acorn, the author's grown his whole oak tree of an article: Some GR performance number was arrived at and/or promised. so if that number isn't arrived at, DOOOOOOOM!!! Goodbye not only COH but Paragon Studios ... even NCSoft West! Boiled down, the NC Soft respsonse was: that's not how we do businsess, that's not the way it works here. Here's some examples why. Pretty staright forward if you ask me. What else do you expect them to say? "Get out of your parent's basement, kid, and get a life!"? . |
@Texarkana
@Thexder
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Worse than mmorpg.com?
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Originally Posted by LunarKnight
Massively is about the most negative, vile, hostile worthless community on the net in my experience. Take all the usual drama you get out of an MMO forum and throw them all together in one place where they can argue for their "team" and you get a decent start. It's like a perpetual console war forum; perhaps worse.
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@Texarkana
@Thexder
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Faultline, The Hollows and the RWZ would like to have a word with you regarding that blanket statement.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Paragon Studios' motto is "we'd rather give you entirely new zones than revamp the old zones". This is an approach that's focused on pleasing existing customers at the expense of incoming new customers, and it shows with GR.
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Also, in some ways, Ultra Mode is an overhaul to all zones.
That having been said, it would be nice to see the low-level contacts and mission structure on CoH get an overhaul to make them more like the ones in CoV, which don't send you from zone-to-zone nearly as often.
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Hey, guys... Can someone give me a stool or a ladder or a leg up or something? I know there's more to read in this post, but I just can't seem to see past this sentence.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
The past 6 issues have been garbage.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If you have the Pocket D teleporter, use that to get there. Even if you don't, the entrance to Pocket D in KR is easy to access.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
True, Faultline is just such a horror to get to. Seriously, tram line? Please?
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Plus, if you're already in the Hollows, you can exit to Skyway and access it from there.
It's really not that hard to get to.
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Dispari, if BABs saying the exact same thing didn't get the message through, I don't think it will ever go through, sadly.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
We've been told before that CoH is in no risk of being shut down. We never have and never will pull WoW numbers, but that doesn't mean we're anywhere near in danger of being cut off. I believe at some point a dev said that even if we lost half our subscribers that we'd still be fine. This was somewhere in response to a doom post about sub numbers or a conspiracy theory about the pay packs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My favourite comment there is "Champions 5 years from now will be a far better game than CoH is today."
Basically, they're saying that it'll take 5 years for Champions to be better than CoH, provided CoH stops updating today...
I'm not one for the whole CO vs CoH thing, but that made me laugh