Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
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Well toggle dropping the travel power is no big deal because most pvpers got hurdle slotted making it hard to keep them in place even when all travel powers drop.
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So we classify hurdle (and sprint and others) as travel powers for this purpose.
Never mind -- I was thinking of combat jumping. We'd need to suppress all the "secondary travel powers" too, somehow -- and toggle dropping won't do it, you're right.
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Well toggle dropping the travel power is no big deal because most pvpers got hurdle slotted making it hard to keep them in place even when all travel powers drop.
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So we classify hurdle (and sprint and others) as travel powers for this purpose.
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Well yeah but negating all travel powers with aura is overpowered. 
sticking someone on follow basically turns the game for them into WoW.
Besides its better to have actually powers that can be used at proper moment and make it more tactical.Giving an aura will just result in all AT's going full kite mode and just not coming close which is very doable.
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The guy who set off this argument does have a point in a weird way. PvP just isnt really accessable realistically to a casual player in a sense that it is long term fun to them.
And, because most of the posts I've read are pretty (ive only skimmed) advanced, we're not offering solutions to make PvP more accessable on a basic level, therefore creating more PvPers, some of who will graduate to the advanced levels some posters here are at.
What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
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Hi,
I don't think that there is a "real" solution to the lack of interest in PvP in CoX. It is a side activity of the game ( IMO ) with no repercution for either side.
As an example, when I was playing Daoc in the early days of the game, I was motivated by the RvR aspect because it had a sense, I fought for my realm, I fought for a tangible goal ( the relic keeps which gave your realm a bonus or opened a "PvP" dungeon for the faction with the most keeps ).
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You've just pretty much covered part of whats wrong with our PvP versus other games versions. Doac offered reasons to get invested in PvP and this game doesn't.
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As others posters said, there is no reward ( with an impact on your character or faction ) in CoX PvP but this is not necessary a flaw ( it made CoX PvP less stressfull IMO ).
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I dont agree with this because PvP, primarily should be optional. You dont have to get involved in the stress if you dont want too. But, a decent PvP would add options and therefore more playability, for those that want it, if something compelling was installed in the first place.
Right now its just too patchy and uninvolving and pretty much goalless, which excludes a lot of people from trying it, making it hard for those that do enjoy it because there isnt always much opposition about.
And, any MMO activety revolves around goals and achievements. Its no surprise PvP isnt up to too much on CoX because, aside from the PvP/ PvE build issue, there are very few worthwhile goals.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
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I never thought I'd say this... I agree with Lionsbane. 
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You really should get out more. 
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Something occurred to me while reading this thread, to those that have been put off by the trash talk etc. in pvp zones (perticularly sirens call): Was it directed at you or at someone else?
I'm asking bacause when i or any of my sg mates gets a kill on one of our group (i.e. our group of friends) it's often followed up with a tuant or two (often both on vent and in broadcast), we see it as part of the fun, if some one outside of the group joins in, all the better but it's not expected or taken seriously. I'm woundering if we've inadvertantly put someone off pvp by doing this?
For those that have been put off by the chat or trash talk (on defiant), come and join us one of the evenings, give it another go, i can't garentee there won't be any idiots about but i can garentee most of us are actually quite welcoming, mature and fair (and sometimes even fun to play with/against ) and if you have any questions or want to know why/how something happened that you weren't expecting, just ask!
One of us normally puts a call out, late evening/night, just bring yourself and the expectation to die alot (just like the rest of us do) and you'll be fine 
As for improvements, firstly get rid of those damn npc's! All of them!
Other than that, merging the pvp zones across more/all servers would be a help. It might even be an idea to allow 'pvp only' toons to be made, where you create a toon at level 50 with all enhancements available for free but they are limited to pocket d and the pvp zones only and can't trade with other players, that way everyone can have a pvp toon without limiting their pve toons (and would give rp'ers a new toy ). As for the pvp zones, i think they need to be scrapped and remade, focusing more on what they're there for, no heavies, npc's (apart from some base defenders), pill boxes, rockets or meteors that just get in the way, i'd even go so far as to say make them smaller and disable travel powers (although that still leaves a little problem of stalkers). The zones need a purpose or goal but the ones currently in place do nothing for pvp, the sirens bounty system also needs expanding, it's hardly worth it as it is.
[Edit]Damn, someone added an extra page to this thread while i wasn't looking 
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To make PvP appeal to a large portion of the playerbase, I think, as a minimum, the following needs to be done:
Team structured -- PvP needs to be restructured to be centered, and not only balanced, around teams. There needs to be team tasks, victory conditions for teams, and mechanisms in place to pit teams against teams.
Nuanced stealth -- The stealth system needs to be expanded and made more nuanced. Terrain, conditions, movement, power use and other should affect stealth (both adding and subtracting.) Staying hidden should require some amount of skill (and be, to some degree, counterable by skilled opponents), but the payout should be better.
Suppress travelpowers -- Travel powers should either be suppressed entirely in PvP zones (although that would require a complete redesign of the zones) or they should carry significant disadvantages to use. Penalties to stealth, accuracy, resistances and recharge, lingering for a few seconds after they've been used. It should be almost, but not quite, impossible to use them effectively in actual combat -- mostly they should be used as a way to get to the combat, then be turned off.
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You are my favorite new friend. I really love all of these suggestions.
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
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PvP can be fun, I've dipped in from time to time. But the fun is always, always spoiled by the appearance of one or more Stalkers. Ignoring for a second they can rip most non-Tanks in half by flicking a fingernail at them, placate followed by stealth and superspeed means it's virtually impossible to track and take them down unless you're constantly eating yellows on top of an impressive +Perc toggle.
Stalkers make PvP frustrating and pointless for non-Stalker Heroes, either solo or as part of a team. And that is mainly why I do not PvP.
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u can say the same for blasters. so all is equal
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PvP can be fun, I've dipped in from time to time. But the fun is always, always spoiled by the appearance of one or more Stalkers. Ignoring for a second they can rip most non-Tanks in half by flicking a fingernail at them, placate followed by stealth and superspeed means it's virtually impossible to track and take them down unless you're constantly eating yellows on top of an impressive +Perc toggle.
Stalkers make PvP frustrating and pointless for non-Stalker Heroes, either solo or as part of a team. And that is mainly why I do not PvP.
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u can say the same for blasters. so all is equal
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Its not exactly equal.Wanna put it in balance scale?
Stalkers: Builds up,Unresisted HUGE spike damage,Tier 9's like overload etc etc,Heals,placate,criticals from hide,perception,Mez protection,KB protection in some sets,fear protection,psi res
Blaster: Aim,Bu,1 high damage blast 2 moderate that make the PvP attack chain, good epic powers,nukes,some decent hp with sets and accolades,Range,Knockback.
Stalkers are 100% viable solo even in beginners hands.Blaster needs skilled players to be really viable solo.
Its not equal is not comparable and its high time some people stop compare blasters to stalkers.
I am not saying stalkers are overpowered but they are definitely not equal or same as blasters.
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If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops'
[/ QUOTE ]No, just no.
I have nothing against PvP giving you already existing recipes, but PvP-only drops should never be implemented in this game.
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With the existing trend at the moment trying to get the best possible recipes and people wanting some form of reward for entering pvp surely this would be the next logical step?
Obviously you wouldnt have recipes on the scale of purple levels, but it wouldnt be ground breaking to say have level 30 recipe drops against other players in sirens call (lvl 38s in WB etc etc). This would then have a positive effect on the market/pve'rs as well since due to an increase in these recipes on the market, prices will surely fall.
PvPrs win
PvErs win
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Anyway, I see that we don't "understand" the word "hardcore" the same way. For me doing something a lot isn't enough to label it as hardcore activity.
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Here is a bit of enlightenment courtesy of an English dictionary.
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hard core
n.
1. The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization: the hard core of the separatist movement.
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I think definition 1. is the one that we are interested in.
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The CoH PvP community are separatists? So which one of them is Count Dooku?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops'
[/ QUOTE ]No, just no.
I have nothing against PvP giving you already existing recipes, but PvP-only drops should never be implemented in this game.
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With the existing trend at the moment trying to get the best possible recipes and people wanting some form of reward for entering pvp surely this would be the next logical step?
[/ QUOTE ]Granting recipe rewards for PvP, maybe. Granting recipes exclusive to PvPers? That would cause LOT of angry customers, unless those recipes sucked, in which case they'd just be pointless.
It should, perhaps, be possible to "buy" a random recipe with reputation. That way, you'd still need to earn it like you need to with a TF. Ish...
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Most of the time when I read message boards about PvP, the "hardcore" ( not all of them of course ) usually find no penalty games "carebear" ( example : no full body loot => carebear, instant respawn at the nearest camp => carebear, consensual PvP => carebear ).
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But they have no meaning to how good PvP is, how good the people playing it are or how much fun it is.
people that think they are important are frankly just looking to grief people.
I think there should be a new PVP zone, with an entrance from Mercy Island and Galaxy City that is specifically for PVP training. You can fight each other, but you can't outright kill someone - when their health gets to a certain point it automatically restores. This way it allows people to learn to fight in PVP, which may make the casual gamer venture more in to the zones. PVE players get a tutorial, so why not create something to teach PVP players as well?
I enjoy PVP, but CoX PVP isn't fun for everyone, and I count myself as one of them who doesn't find it fun and I find it a shame. My first real experience of it was Jedi Acadamey multiplayer (long ago, though not quite a galaxy far away) and yes, you would get the skilled PVPs who would take you out very quickly, but even a person new to PVP was able to stand their ground and play as a well timed force-push would throw someone in to a pit and that was that. Yes, you'd get trash talk, yes it could be bloody annoying at times, but it was fun and someone going in to a zone and being killed several times without an awareness of what's going on isn't fun and doesn't promote PVP. There will always be the 'that's not fair' people and people who view everyone as fair game as they're in a PVP zone but in my view, that's not what kills the fun. What kills it is you don't get a chance to figure out what you're doing wrong before it's too late. If the PVP are as passionate about PVP as the inevitable arguments seem to suggest, then I can't see a problem with a zone where you can PVP, but can't defeat, in order to train people for the real thing. I don't think PVP is a bad thing, far from it, but it needs to be made more accessible in order for it to be fun for everyone, despite builds and IOs and everything else.
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I think there should be a new PVP zone, with an entrance from Mercy Island and Galaxy City that is specifically for PVP training. You can fight each other, but you can't outright kill someone - when their health gets to a certain point it automatically restores. This way it allows people to learn to fight in PVP, which may make the casual gamer venture more in to the zones. PVE players get a tutorial, so why not create something to teach PVP players as well?
I enjoy PVP, but CoX PVP isn't fun for everyone, and I count myself as one of them who doesn't find it fun and I find it a shame. My first real experience of it was Jedi Acadamey multiplayer (long ago, though not quite a galaxy far away) and yes, you would get the skilled PVPs who would take you out very quickly, but even a person new to PVP was able to stand their ground and play as a well timed force-push would throw someone in to a pit and that was that. Yes, you'd get trash talk, yes it could be bloody annoying at times, but it was fun and someone going in to a zone and being killed several times without an awareness of what's going on isn't fun and doesn't promote PVP. There will always be the 'that's not fair' people and people who view everyone as fair game as they're in a PVP zone but in my view, that's not what kills the fun. What kills it is you don't get a chance to figure out what you're doing wrong before it's too late. If the PVP are as passionate about PVP as the inevitable arguments seem to suggest, then I can't see a problem with a zone where you can PVP, but can't defeat, in order to train people for the real thing. I don't think PVP is a bad thing, far from it, but it needs to be made more accessible in order for it to be fun for everyone, despite builds and IOs and everything else.
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Wow.
That's a great idea.
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
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I think there should be a new PVP zone, with an entrance from Mercy Island and Galaxy City that is specifically for PVP training. You can fight each other, but you can't outright kill someone - when their health gets to a certain point it automatically restores. This way it allows people to learn to fight in PVP, which may make the casual gamer venture more in to the zones. PVE players get a tutorial, so why not create something to teach PVP players as well?
I enjoy PVP, but CoX PVP isn't fun for everyone, and I count myself as one of them who doesn't find it fun and I find it a shame. My first real experience of it was Jedi Acadamey multiplayer (long ago, though not quite a galaxy far away) and yes, you would get the skilled PVPs who would take you out very quickly, but even a person new to PVP was able to stand their ground and play as a well timed force-push would throw someone in to a pit and that was that. Yes, you'd get trash talk, yes it could be bloody annoying at times, but it was fun and someone going in to a zone and being killed several times without an awareness of what's going on isn't fun and doesn't promote PVP. There will always be the 'that's not fair' people and people who view everyone as fair game as they're in a PVP zone but in my view, that's not what kills the fun. What kills it is you don't get a chance to figure out what you're doing wrong before it's too late. If the PVP are as passionate about PVP as the inevitable arguments seem to suggest, then I can't see a problem with a zone where you can PVP, but can't defeat, in order to train people for the real thing. I don't think PVP is a bad thing, far from it, but it needs to be made more accessible in order for it to be fun for everyone, despite builds and IOs and everything else.
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Wow.
That's a great idea.
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I agree!
Blimey - this thread's actually generating some really great creative suggestions about how to get more people into PvP.
Loving it!
Ever wondered how our costumes stay so clean and shiny given everything we put them through?
Then you need to try out Spandex Crisis (Arc ID 32943)
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I think there should be a new PVP zone, with an entrance from Mercy Island and Galaxy City that is specifically for PVP training. You can fight each other, but you can't outright kill someone - when their health gets to a certain point it automatically restores. This way it allows people to learn to fight in PVP, which may make the casual gamer venture more in to the zones. PVE players get a tutorial, so why not create something to teach PVP players as well?
I enjoy PVP, but CoX PVP isn't fun for everyone, and I count myself as one of them who doesn't find it fun and I find it a shame. My first real experience of it was Jedi Acadamey multiplayer (long ago, though not quite a galaxy far away) and yes, you would get the skilled PVPs who would take you out very quickly, but even a person new to PVP was able to stand their ground and play as a well timed force-push would throw someone in to a pit and that was that. Yes, you'd get trash talk, yes it could be bloody annoying at times, but it was fun and someone going in to a zone and being killed several times without an awareness of what's going on isn't fun and doesn't promote PVP. There will always be the 'that's not fair' people and people who view everyone as fair game as they're in a PVP zone but in my view, that's not what kills the fun. What kills it is you don't get a chance to figure out what you're doing wrong before it's too late. If the PVP are as passionate about PVP as the inevitable arguments seem to suggest, then I can't see a problem with a zone where you can PVP, but can't defeat, in order to train people for the real thing. I don't think PVP is a bad thing, far from it, but it needs to be made more accessible in order for it to be fun for everyone, despite builds and IOs and everything else.
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I'm now very worried.....
....By this time in a PvP Vs non PvP thread Knife are drawn people are slagging each other....Not coming up with something this good
I don't PvP in zones I only Base Raid if they are short of people (and I belong to a SG which PvPs a lot, I think I'm almost the only member who don't join in )
If this came in I would be very tempted to try it.
Happy to be on Defiant.
Global name @mereman
Member of P.E.R.C. Representing Defiant
Alts http://cit.cohtitan.com/profile/4488
CoH faces http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/mereman
is that allowed? ban him quick!
@ExtraGonk
iirc someone (me) started a good thread on how to attract PvE'ers into the game. Quite a good discussion was had, marred only by the occassional stubborn refusal to accept this fact:
TO ATTRACT NONPVPERS INTO PVP ZONES YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO THEM. NOT TO PEOPLE ALLREADY PVPING.
The absolute and total infallible logic seems to escape some people who say "I'm a pvper and I want x,y,z to attract non pvpers into zones"
After lots of debate on that thread, and some good idea's here too, I am left with these personal conclusions:
1. PvP is only viable with a fraction of the available sets. Boring.
2. PvPis only viable with highly specialised builds that gimp you in PvE (at least team PvE). Boring and destroys my main interest.
3. PvP is horribly uneven even under these circumstances. You have to farm for hours to be viable. Boring.
4. When I have entered PvP there is, to my mind, much less skill than people bleat on about it. I dont do it much but I have mastered the basics pretty quickly. Keep moving, hop,skip, jump, breakfrees when mezzed, mez, blast, debuff opponents. buff allies. I just dont beleive there is a steep learning curve. What there is, is a requirement to have a totally streamlined cookie cutter build and farm for hours and hours to uberize it. To my mind the skill component, whilst there, is overplayed and mythologised.
5. PvP *could* be great fun, and is a good component to overall health and interest in the game.
At the moment its just boring at best, always limited to exactly same builds, play, sets, and rude/obnoxious at worst.
Usually.
The only good times I have had are a) occassionally with freinds. and b) test server mash up events on zones.
There are, I think, two ways forward:
1. Invest no more resources at all in PvP. By all means let the uber1337 killers enjoy the zone. But they will be a tiny minority and wont have easy prey in the zones.
2. Invest large quantities of resources and totally think outside the box (PvPvE for instance).
What I dont think is acceptable is the dev's investing moderate amount of resources into sticky tape solutions that dont attract more than trivial amounts of people to allready ghost zones. If they are going to do something about PvP it has to be a huge radical rework.
Personally i'd leave it to die and wither, but im not sure thats good for the game. At some point they need to do option 2.
As far as I can see the only way you are ever going to get any solution is a PvPvE type scenario:
e.g. Each team spawns on a map / mission with 2 lts and a boss type NPC comrades per team member (Say longbow or Arachnos soldiers). There is no respawning. Once all enemy and minions are dead, that team wins.
Whats different about this?
1. AoE Powers will be useful.
2. Mez Powers cant be broke free from instantly by minions.i.e. useful.
3. Mellee toons can attack the minions.
4. Running away means you leave behind the minions, they get wiped. Travel powers dont pwnz everything.
5. Placed powers like EQ have a function, Sure, run out of them. your minions wont.
5. Phase Shift. See 4.
6. Uberization is, whilst still there, minimised. The presence of minions causes an "averaging" effect on total DPS/Protection/Whatever.
See how many problems this solves.
A man can dream.
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TO ATTRACT NONPVPERS INTO PVP ZONES YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO THEM. NOT TO PEOPLE ALLREADY PVPING.
1. PvP is only viable with a fraction of the available sets. Boring.
2. PvPis only viable with highly specialised builds that gimp you in PvE (at least team PvE). Boring and destroys my main interest.
3. PvP is horribly uneven even under these circumstances. You have to farm for hours to be viable. Boring.
4. When I have entered PvP there is, to my mind, much less skill than people bleat on about it. I dont do it much but I have mastered the basics pretty quickly. Keep moving, hop,skip, jump, breakfrees when mezzed, mez, blast, debuff opponents. buff allies. I just dont beleive there is a steep learning curve. What there is, is a requirement to have a totally streamlined cookie cutter build and farm for hours and hours to uberize it. To my mind the skill component, whilst there, is overplayed and mythologised.
5. PvP *could* be great fun, and is a good component to overall health and interest in the game.
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I would say this is a reasonable summation of my feelings.
However PVP can be fun whatever level you're at provided all parties accept agree and understand that actually, it's just a game.
Thelonious Monk
So many times I have wanted to reply to this thread, but have been limited by the numnber of responses too it, be it one variable or another.
My experience of PvP has varied much. On many occasions being face planted quickly and without reprisal, but on others quite the opposite. Recently I have spent much time in PvP zones, (specifically to get certain badges) and have experienced a whole new dimension to the game. I have by no means a PvP uber build, but it has does fairly well (for a melee toon). Sure the odd AS has caused me a bit of pain, but it has needed 3 to take me down (regen scrapper) one shot. DP and IH work well!
The problem I have had is trying to get the opposition into some sort of combat, they just bounce away after taking damage. Surely if this is PvP, they want to engage? Or basically they know if toe to toe, then there will be only one winner.
As for trash talk! I have never seen it, albeit a samll ammount of time compared to others in the zone. The only talk I have seen is the rhetoric from the defeated player (hero side, and clearly a less than optimised PvP build).
But as it stands, I would never change my my mainly PvE char(s) into a PvP build, simply because there is little if any reward for doing so.
In response to the OP however, I disagree. Although a non- PvP'er par se, my brief (but enjoyable) exploits in the zones has shown me that here are numerous people out there who do regularly PvP, and enjoy it.
Solo in the zones is certain death. But find a team and that is a whiole different ball (PvP) game.
I must say, you put up a good fight when you want to Clawd
We don't always go for the pvp newbie first, normally we go for the most desruptive (the healer/buffer, ones with high perception or a blaster that can 2 - 3 shot us) provided the newbie plays with a bit of thought (like sticking with their team etc, though i will point out that when people enter a pvp zone pvp-newbie or not, a lot forget to do this)
That rhetoric is probably the taunting i mentioned earlier
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The problem I have had is trying to get the opposition into some sort of combat, they just bounce away after taking damage. Surely if this is PvP, they want to engage? Or basically they know if toe to toe, then there will be only one winner.
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I presume (well, i know some of the time) you were facing stalkers, for a stalker to go toe to toe with a scrapper can only have one of two outcomes:
1. the stalker gets anhialated
2. the scrapper gets annoyed at the stalker for not playing like a scrapper
The trick is to force the stalker to play like a scrapper (admitidly not easy to do on your own) then see how alarmingly squishy they are!
Well thanks for the lively debate all.
I think at the end of the day whats been said has given me some hope that with a little forethought and development time that PvP could be as great as I had hoped it would be when I first joined the game.
I won't bother summarising but at least half a dozen good ideas have been presented all of which seem viable/implementable .
So to conclude perhaps PvP hasn't entirely faceplanted I would suggest however it is need of some serious 'medical' attention.
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Comments like "just move forward!" and so on are just dumb imo. Why not just go "Cool, you don't like pvp, i can understand that".
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Because had i answered "Cool, you don't like pvp, i can understand that" it would have made no sense in answer to the post i replying to.
Please read the thread rather than picking 3 words out, doing THAT is just dumb imo.
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Maybe you should have said move around, rather than move forward. Or move in a direction. Or just move. Or manuever your character.
Or how about instigate actions that would propel your charcter from the spot upon which the stalker is focussing upon?
And then you could have avoided all these really petty posts in the first place. And the absurd compultion, which i know too well, to answer them.
I honestly dont know why, when your overall meaning is clear, people pick up on sematics like that but there you go.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...