Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
[ QUOTE ]
I used to play Delta Force a bit, several years ago. My absolute favorite part of that game was when I could find a nice, unassuming spot with a good view to lie down and act as spotter for the rest of my team. "XY: Two ufs, east of you, moving southwards." Of course, always while I lay there I had my ears peeled for footsteps nearby, and I always had to worry about counter-snipers finding me.
That's how PvP ought to be in my book: periods of calm and deliberation and communication, interrupted by moments of pure chaos and panic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's exactly how WW2OL plays, except the chaos can last for hours and battles for days. I remember spending 90 minutes in a hedge in Belgium near a little town called Geel spotting for enemy activity, then seeing a load of Axis infantry sneaking in the lee of the canal embankment. I stayed in the hedge reporting then an Axis officer snuck into the same bush, popped his binos and started spotting our positions while I was frantically spamming global asking for the best place to stab a man to kill him instantly.
Not long after that the comms channels kicked off with reports from all over the area -
"EI est 30+ ne moving w, 2 EA + 2 262 e mov nw, opel audio se distant"
"Luft inb Geel, 3 Ju87 + 109 esc eta 5 mins"
"Axis paras 10+ drop geel AB"
"frag777 mission, your MSP spotted break sw to treeline hold fr orders"
"S Geel bridge down target saps"
"para mission Ant AF Geel def, toilets miss. PILOTS REQ!!"
"many EI w, inb geel"
"2x stug + tiger 1000yds ne trees any sappers??"
"RAF inb Geel, eta 15 mins"
"HC pull wavre AO! geel is going down!"
"Negative Geel, Wavre is priority. Hold as long as you can."
"FFS they rolling us"
"3x church arriving geel. where you want us?"
"3? lol good luck"
(yep, gibberish to most but any WW2OL vets here will recognise the situation 
)
I spent the last 20 minutes of that battle (which had gone on for about 3 hours from first contact) under permanent concussion, unable to move due to terrible injuries, down to no bullets and one last grenade for when the Krauts came in to take the depot I was trapped in.
Then, almost inexplicably, Axis High Command pulled the Attack Order and they withdrew. You've never seen so much joy from so few remaining defenders. Pure class. Immersive, skillful, meaningful, strategic PvP. I even got to RTB.
Erm, sorry for OT.
[ QUOTE ]
In Team Fortress 2, I don't get rooted in place to make an attack, meaning I don't have to worry that the instant I want to fire a weapon that a Spy is going to put a switch blade between my shoulders.
[/ QUOTE ]So, you don't play a Heavy? 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it's been suggested, but how about monster-play as an option? So you can't level the character you control at all, but you do get to fight against the players?
Perhaps offer progress for monster players by giving them tougher monsters/more notorious AVs to control after an amount of time or even a number of players defeated or whatnot?
In order to give players incentive to begin this passage, perhaps offer costume piece rewards or badges (for all their regular characters) for getting up to the top AVs?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is, sort of, in the form of gladiator matches.
However, I like this idea. Playing a longbow commander in Siren's Call could be fun.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it's been suggested, but how about monster-play as an option? So you can't level the character you control at all, but you do get to fight against the players?
Perhaps offer progress for monster players by giving them tougher monsters/more notorious AVs to control after an amount of time or even a number of players defeated or whatnot?
In order to give players incentive to begin this passage, perhaps offer costume piece rewards or badges (for all their regular characters) for getting up to the top AVs?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is, sort of, in the form of gladiator matches.
However, I like this idea. Playing a longbow commander in Siren's Call could be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
AVs though? I mean, imagine five Villain Ghost Widows using Soul Storm against the poor, unsuspecting Heroes?
Genius. Pure genius! 
Contact Information!
Twitter: @TonyParkeze
Facebook: www.facebook.com/anthonyjp91
Email: anthonyjp91@gmail.com
[ QUOTE ]
From the posts I've read you guys always seem to go "You´re doing it wrong." Whenever anyone posts a criticism of pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sorry but when someone actually posts something that is really not accurate what do you want to post?That yes they are right?Or try and make them understand that there is something wrong with what they are saying.
[ QUOTE ]
I've read pvpers posts and been put right off ever interacting with the community on the whole.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are prejudiced and thats enough for me.You tarnish a bunch of people based on what a minority has posted.That is ridicilous at least.
[ QUOTE ]
So, it's a bug?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes. When you get into the range where your client loads the character, they'll appear for a moment before the server tells you they're stealthed.
[ QUOTE ]
Then what would be your way to deal with the problem as you and the other Rp posting here be?
[/ QUOTE ](PvE != RP)
The solution would be getting enough people constantly into the PvP zones that there'd always be inexperienced players on both sides, allowing them to still be able to beat at least some targets.
How to accomplish that? I don't really see any way other than cross-server PvP zones. (and that would most likely mean cross-atlantic as well)
[ QUOTE ]
How to accomplish that? I don't really see any way other than cross-server PvP zones. (and that would most likely mean cross-atlantic as well)
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen brother! I've been saying this for years.
Shadowplay - Scrapper DM/DA SL 50
Doctor Storm- Brute SS/Elec SL 50
"speed boosts someone in the face" - Cognito
PvP for melee, yes it has seriously faceplanted but this is more to do with the way travel powers are set up and the whole bunny-hopping on crack thing really doesn't help.
I've always said there really is no easy way to fix PvP for melee ATs (apart from stalkers/Night Widows/Bane Spiders).
Though saying all PvPers are bad eggs is untrue, most respect a good fight, if you stand your ground and don't whine when you lose seems to be the thing most PvPers will respect from what I've seen.
I've gone in with a character completely unfit for PvP by their powerset choices (well their primary, Dark Melee which is low on the burst DPS needed to take out people quickly) and given a decent fight and nobody shouted out 'lolnoob' when I lost or even when they found out that I was DM/Regen.
Still my main conscern is that non-stealth melee ATs really does need a boost in some way for PvP to help it...what that is...I have no idea but I imagine the devs are hopefully (not likely) considering a few options
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From the posts I've read you guys always seem to go "You´re doing it wrong." Whenever anyone posts a criticism of pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sorry but when someone actually posts something that is really not accurate what do you want to post?That yes they are right?Or try and make them understand that there is something wrong with what they are saying.
[ QUOTE ]
I've read pvpers posts and been put right off ever interacting with the community on the whole.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are prejudiced and thats enough for me.You tarnish a bunch of people based on what a minority has posted.That is ridicilous at least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, yeah, blah blah. There are people on this thread posting the kind of stuff I'm talking about and you're far from condemning them.
You want pvpers to have a better rep then you'd best start policing the community then eh?
Claiming that it's a minority of people when there are far more comments and stories about trash talking, 'bad' pvpers makes me think you're just wearing rose tinted glasses.
But hey, you know, I'm prejudiced, even though the word means "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.". I'm pretty sure I have knowledge after reading posts, I've even thought about them! Is that reason enough for you?
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PvP can be fun, I've dipped in from time to time. But the fun is always, always spoiled by the appearance of one or more Stalkers. Ignoring for a second they can rip most non-Tanks in half by flicking a fingernail at them, placate followed by stealth and superspeed means it's virtually impossible to track and take them down unless you're constantly eating yellows on top of an impressive +Perc toggle.
Stalkers make PvP frustrating and pointless for non-Stalker Heroes, either solo or as part of a team. And that is mainly why I do not PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
What the Devs were smoking when they thought of Stalkers, nobody will ever know...
[/ QUOTE ]
They're fine - they're just rather risky, I think - they really need to be successful with their signature feature, or they get into trouble
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
before even looking at that orum because of the posts I read in here.
[/ QUOTE ]
You spelled forum wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really have no interest of listening to the carebears
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to propose a new law, similar to that one about Nazis and thread length. It shall be known as the Happy Bear Law:
As the length of any thread discussing PvP increases, the probability that none PvPers will be likened to Carebears tends to equal 1.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a Carebear who likes PvP - does that make a difference?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before even looking at that orum because of the posts I read in here.
[/ QUOTE ]
You spelled forum wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I did, I made a typo. I'll go and edit it. Thanks.
[url=http://vox-doom.deviantart.com]Take A Gander At This.[/url]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes I did, I made a typo. I'll go and edit it. Thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
No problem.
This thread is brimming with...some sort of tension - can you guys go PvP for a bit to release it?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before even looking at that orum because of the posts I read in here.
[/ QUOTE ]
You spelled forum wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, actually he spelled it "orum".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
before even looking at that orum because of the posts I read in here.
[/ QUOTE ]
You spelled forum wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, actually he spelled it "orum".
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, two of the letters were also in "wrong"
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and more people are put off pvp by coming into contact with the pvp community than they are reading a post by a non-pvper.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that right?
And where did you come by that gem of factual information then?
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. This was pages ago, and I can't remember who posted what. Ah, well. I'll happily add my name to the list of people who have been put off PvP because of trying it and getting disheartened by the behaviour of people in the PvP community.
This does not mean that I tar the entire PvP community with the same brush... just every single one of them I've ever met in-game.
I want to try PvP. I also think that I should, as an inexperienced PvPer, stand a chance in a fight. I think I deserve the opportunity to try different tactics and see what works and what doesn't, and I think I deserve the chance to do so with out being told, basically, to come back and play when I know what I'm doing.
Yes, I expect PvP to be a steep learning curve. But there's a difference between being able to learn and dying so damn fast -several times in a row- that you have no idea what options are open to you. And repeatedly being told to go away and come back when you know what you're doing.
Because, no matter how much you dress it up and say that the majority of PvPers are nice people - which I do believe, by the way - unless you're a hardcore PvPer already, there is nothing quite so offputting as being told to give up, go away, you're wasting your time here, go back to PvE where you belong - that's the attitude of a truly welcoming community [/sarcasm]. And no, I've not once seen another PvPer say anything like "Oh, come on, he's obviously new, give him a break, let him learn, for Heavens' sakes."
Yes, PvP needs some form of change to make it more suitable - the best suggestion I've seen so far would be to remove all debt from PvP zones, turning the mobs into a TACTIC rather than a risk - but IMO the behaviour of the majority of PvPers I have encountered, personally is specifically designed to put people off coming into the PvP zones to see what PvP is like.
I may be unique, but given that the majority of 'anti-PvP sentiment' that is coming up here is from people with experiences remarkably similar to my own, I ask the nice PvPers this question: Why should we believe you, when we haven't seen any evidence of it, despite numerous attempts to PvP?
I don't expect kittens and hugs and a pat on the head - I expect to faceplant when I PvP. I expect the chance to have a fight, not be ridiculed and effectively be told to leave: I'm an RPer - if I did similar when a new person tried to RP with me ("Oh, dear, silly you, you have no idea about sentence structure, composition, spelling, grammar, characterisation, behaviour, vocal mannerisms, politeness, or any of the qualities that you need to be a successful RPer, give up now and come back when you've learned a thing or two") I'd expect that person to never try to RP ever again.
So, in summation, this is my message to all PvPers interested in getting more of us non-PvPers interested in what you find fun: Take a leaf out of TG's book. A newbie to PvP is not a TARGET. They are an opportunity to expand your community. Treat them as such and you might make more friends than you've got, and expand the PvP community into something more meaningful than it is today.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
What's wrong with Carebears? They're cute!
Anyway, I don't do much PvP in game for two reasons. First, I don't have the time or the patience to go for a PvP build. Not saying super rare IO's, just a build designed for PvP. I'll stick to my Kat/Regen who has never taken Divine Avalanche, and just continue blatting mobs PvE, and occasionally scaring off people who just go for quick kills where possible. Though I fully understand someone who knows what they are doing will eat me alive
On the other hand, I have done some team based zonal PvP, only about 3 on 3 but it was a lot of fun even though I can't really steer at speed and tend to crash into walls. Was good fun, as I did it with a couple of SG friends and some people in the zone who just happened to be there and teamed against us. I would like to point out though, that nothing gets me to leave a zone faster than to hear some idiot mouthing off about how uber they are in a serious fashion. Whether they killed me or someone else.
Secondly, if I'm really after player skill based PvP, I usually go play Star Wars Battlefront (yes, I know) Pure, unadulterated nerdiness, with the added benefit of being teeming with bots/people and if I play with my friends on opposite teams, it'll go down to the wire. Because no one really has an advantage over the other in terms of weaponry, just skill.I just want them to bring back the Rhen Var Ice Caverns map, and buff destroyer droids back up. It used to take three or four shots from a tank to kill em, and taking one down with a rifle was awesome! Now I use a pistol and just leave a bloody paste on the walls. Tsk.
Anyhow, carry on people!
So back in PVE world there is never a cross word spoken. Teams work like clockwork with the maximum in politeness and decorum.
Defender: " After you dear sir!"
Tanker "My pleasure, dear fellow! Here I Go!"
Energy Blaster "What ho this is spiffing fun what?"
Tanker "Sorry old chap, could you be nice enough to lessen the amount of knock back on these blighters?"
Energy Blaster "Oh how awfull of me! Please allow me to apologize!"
Etc..etc......
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how Z or RW can be called carebears either
[/ QUOTE ]
Dang it, Bright, how am I going to have a decent slanging match if you go around being reasonable.
It's fair. I don't mind a bit of PvP among friends, I just dislike PKers.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Ok people Time out.
When I checked this thread around tea time today I was proud that so many people had been able to discuss such a contreversial subject with such maturity and insight. After reading recent updates less so.
Now to try and return to the point of this thread so far 2 (possibly 3 with hero2's play a mob idea) suggestions for the overall improvment of PvP in CoX.
1/ Access to a multi build option
2/ Separate come one come all servers for PvP
Now my personal idea would be supress all super movement (ie no super jump/speed,teleport allowed) within all zones and I would like to know what people think of this idea and what effect people think it would have on PvP in CoX.
So lets stay friendly and work towards what I see as our common goal, improved enjoyment of all aspects of the game we all obviously know and love.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, it's a bug?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes. When you get into the range where your client loads the character, they'll appear for a moment before the server tells you they're stealthed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Max. It's nice to know someone is honest.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
How could anyone claim that more people are put off by secondhand posts than trying it out and coming into contact with other pvpers?
[/ QUOTE ]
For that matter, what fraction of the playerbase even read the forums (beyond incidental glances)? 10%? 30%? I sincerely doubt it's even close to half.