Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
We dont want this fail thread in our section
thePhilosopher Martial Arts/Regen/Fire Scrapper
theRegulator Empathy/Energy/Soul Defender
Total Inertia Ice Blast/Kinetics/Psy Corruptor
Total Inferno Ice Blast/Thermal/Leviathan Corruptor
Man GR haven't you resended your dicision yet. Ar well. Let me say this if you want to do anything with this thread recommend it to the US Dev in charge of PvP.
Later Peace out
[ QUOTE ]
You sure about that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, i'm quite sure 
[ QUOTE ]
Make up your mind. Will people leave the game because of this, or not?
[/ QUOTE ]
From some of the reactions here people have stated that they would, I didn't say they wouldn't, just that 'everyone' wouldn't
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, how do you "know for a fact" people wouldn't leave. Have you conducted a survey to find out?
[/ QUOTE ]
In essence, yes I have I've spoken to a number of friends (who play this game), SG members etc. about this idea (I would like to point out that it isn't my idea as a whole, I'm not sure who origionally came up with the concept of global PvP in CoX, I added the (as far as I'm aware) unique flag system among other things). OK, fair enough, the people I've spoken to (and a few of them weren't 100% in favor of it) would count as a minority but a minority saying yes means everyone cannot be saying no if you get my drift. In fact, the only ones I've encountered who have said they would consider leaving (or actually leave without hesitation) have been on this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
There are a large number of people who play CoX simply because it is PVE focused and not PVP. Introduce an open PVP flag system (like the one I believe is in WoW) and people will leave, as for them it's the reason they're not playing other games with the same system.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, which I said before, people on here have made it pretty clear that they personally would leave so therefore some would leave the game, I just don't beleave the mojority would, it is also why I said I don't think something like this would be implimented for a very long time, if ever, it's just something I would personally like to see.
WoW does have a PvP flag system on some servers but it's basically off untill you perform any action considered by the game, that has an influence on any PvP battle between yourself or any other players(although there ar eexceptions to this), then you are free to be attacked at will for a very long time (the PvP flag seems to 'want' to be on whenever possible in WoW IMO). The flag system I put forward is a little more refined and less open to abuse or accidental switching, though not perfect.
[ QUOTE ]
Understood all that from your original idea, but I come back to my original point. If our current PVP zones were a hive of activity, with not a lot going on in the PVE zones, it would suggest that a large proportion of the gaming population likes PVP, and wants to take part in it. The fact that for the most part, PVP zones are nothing but ghost towns, tends to suggest it's something only a committed minority enjoy, so why not just leave it as it is? PVPers get to PVP, PVEers can PVE; everyones happy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, as it stands right now, a change like this would be 'against the grain' which brings me back to saying it won't be implimented for a very long time, if ever.
I wouldn't say the PvP zones are ghost towns, well, not sirens or RV at least, I can normally find a willing target whenever I enter them, though I agree they're not exectly 'brimming' with activity
[ QUOTE ]
People will always find a way to grief (remember when that guy got his mate to Confuse him in one of the PvP zones so he could nova the RPers at Galaxy Girl before it wore off?), and letting people go into "enemy" PvE zones is asking for trouble, much of it unforseeable from where we are now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Griefing was something I mentioned but a player already has just as many (I'd even say more) ways to grief now, like you mentioned, if one so chooses, any hero can freely attack another hero in a PvE zone (If they work out how to) the difference being, a villain player can be (and most probably will be, by NPC's if no one else) attacked back, a confused hero player can't be (thankfully this type of thing is a rarety).
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, once the ability the go into enemy zones for PvP came in it'd attract more of the PKer type players who get gratification solely from making other people's game as miserable as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something (and I'm sure plenty of people round here will gladly point it out if this is the case ), I can't see how some one could PK with this kind of system, by entering an enemy zone you make yourself a target (ready to be PK'd at will) but by being in a friendly zone you are automaticaly not a target (and therefore can't be touched) unless you choose to be, I can't see many PKers having much fun finding out that after battling past bosses & EB's etc to get to atlas, they can't actually attack anyone who doesn't want to be attacked (wich will probably be the vast majority in atlas), but instead they end up having to fight off a bunch of 'Guard' NPC's 'till a group of PvP players show up who 'want' to be attacked.
[ QUOTE ]
I've played enough MMOs to know that a lot of players never miss an opportunity to let other player know how much the 'owe' them. Whether it's hardcore players claiming they keep games running by being on 15 hours a day, or tank-type players saying they are solely responsible for the success of groups, or farmers claiming they keep prices down (even though the 'cheaper' prices are still out of reach of non-farmers). Speaking of farmer look at the bitterness on these forums whenever the subject comes up, and the same with PvP now I come to think of it, but mercifully that bitterness is kept to the forums. Once there's PvP in PvE zones that kind of bitterness would creep into the actual game. That's the sort of thing I play CoX to get away from.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like you said, those players claim they are 'owed' something regardless what the game lets them or doesn't let them do, having them 'save' a player who can't be attacked wouldn't change that I don't think.
[ QUOTE ]
As I said before DAOC has been the best PvP/PvE mixed game I've played and in that the PvE zones were PvP free areas. The only place where PvP occured was in the Frontiers, Battlegrounds and in Darkness Falls when it flipped.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, and I would expect a similar thing to happen here under similar circumstances, players who want to PvP will naturally go to where they expect to be able to find willing opponents, it just gives them (IMO) more oppertinities to find said opponents.
PK stands for Player Killing, from wiki:
[ QUOTE ]
Player killing, or PKing, is non-consensual PvP resulting in a character's death. Some games offer "open PvP" (also sometimes called "world PvP"), where one player can attack another without warning anywhere in the game world. An aggressor attacks an opponent without agreement to any set of rules of engagement or combat.
[/ QUOTE ]
[edit] missed a typo [/edit]
[ QUOTE ]
Griefing was something I mentioned but a player already has just as many (I'd even say more) ways to grief now, like you mentioned, if one so chooses, any hero can freely attack another hero in a PvE zone (If they work out how to) the difference being, a villain player can be (and most probably will be, by NPC's if no one else) attacked back, a confused hero player can't be (thankfully this type of thing is a rarety).
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is that once people can go into enemy zones to be an enemy, and they can't do anything enemy-like until they are attacked, the way they're going to act like enemies is to cause as much grief as they can in those zones. I'm sure this doesn't apply to all PvPers but some (too many for those of us who want to play the game our own way) are going to find ways to stretch the definition of PvP as far as they can to accomodate as much antagonism as they want.
Anyway, these are my concerns about turning PvE zones into partial PvP zones and it's obviously something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.
I agree that the idea is great in principle but there's too much scope for abuse and too many ways for some to get their fun at others' expense. I'd hope the devs would err on the side of caution and steer away from doing something like this.
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that once people can go into enemy zones to be an enemy, and they can't do anything enemy-like until they are attacked, the way they're going to act like enemies is to cause as much grief as they can in those zones. I'm sure this doesn't apply to all PvPers but some (too many for those of us who want to play the game our own way) are going to find ways to stretch the definition of PvP as far as they can to accomodate as much antagonism as they want.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can see that some may be more inclined to grief others with such a system in place, I didn't really think about weather someone would want to, just if someone could or not. Looking at it that way, it is a fair point.
[ QUOTE ]
it's obviously something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you may be right about that. (as long as you agree that i'm right )
[ QUOTE ]
I'd hope the devs would err on the side of caution and steer away from doing something like this.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you have much to worry about there! I don't think that the devs want to go scaring people off without a very good reason first
Besides, from some of the rumours floating about and 'the word on the street' the devs already have the next couple of years planned and (fortunatly or unfortunatly, depending who you are) global PvP or anything like it doesn't seem to be in that plan.
At least I can still dream
to the OP, I believe yes it has. The PvE content is much stronger on the basis everyone can enjoy it, the moment you have to make PvP "builds" you take that away and only the minority can enjoy it.
I don't mind saying that my main is absolute rubbish in PvP on the basis that all my Super Reflex powers, can't seem to dodge assassin strikes, or give any kind of defence against PvP inflicted status's ( and bracticed brawler stacked doesnt seem to do much either ) which is why I only ever go to PvP zones for badges and to fight stuff not usually found in PvE zones, then when the PvP guys turn up, I leave.
Same with the arena, I think i've been in them three times, which is a huge shame as internally and in concept they are a great idea, I just think they are very poorly implimented in terms of the numbers behind PvP.
Again, I can understand why PvP is team balanced, but PvP in CoH is rarely a team sport from experience, as people aren't clamouring to get into the PvP zones in the first place.
I like it that CoH has a PvP choice to cater for all tastes, please don't get me wrong there, but some of the PvP fight's I've had have proven to be some of the most boring, frustrating, pointless and stupid experiences in all my time in the game, with ONE exception and that was the huge Sirens Call fight with Rockjaw and Bridger.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
[ QUOTE ]
But it's moot anyway - CoH/V launched as a pure PvE game so the PvP will never be more than a "tacked-on" extra. It remains to be seen if an MMO designed from the start and launched with an equal balance of both playstyles can succeed (I guess we'll find out when WAR launches).
[/ QUOTE ]
Eve.
[ QUOTE ]
Its not a bug.Is the way stealth works.
[/ QUOTE ]Hide gives a 500ft radius invisibility, which matches perception radius (regardless of character). In short, without any form of perception bonus, that stalker is completely invisible. That's also not factoring in things like Stealth/Invisibility or IO's. Some AT's have perception built into their powers, such as SR (Focused Senses) or Devices (Targeting Drone).
RE the whole PvP thing:
To be honest, I quite enjoy PvP occasionally. The real problem is ganking and overpoweredness can kill the enjoyment factor completely. When coupled with player attitudes of "It's a PvP zone, deal with it" it can be incredibly frustrating, especially when they're singling the more vocal players out just to be an annoyance.
Unfortunately for some, PvP is seen as some sort of badge of honor. It doesn't matter what circumstances or what insane buffs you were given, as long as you've killed your target. This leads to some terribly one-sided battles as you struggle against two or more players, possibly buffed to the eyeballs. There's no enjoyment in losing every single battle without being able to put up a half-decent defense.
Oh, and don't get me started on the uselessness of "Defense" powers against the insane accuracy available to most PvP players...
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
If you go into a PvP zone expecting to be able to have a chance against groups of enemies or veterans then yes it is incredibly frustrating. I know quite a few players that don't hold this misconception and enjoy PvP for what it is, these are the players that improve and work their way up.
The best defence against ganking is run the other way.
Here's a quote from BaB on the US forums:
[ QUOTE ]
BAB: "Watcha doin?"
Castle: "Watching people PvP on Test."
BAB: "Oh...how's it going?"
Castle: "I see a lot of people with Super Speed and Super Jump hopping around like mad and every so once in a while someone dies."
...
BAB: "Sounds about right."
[/ QUOTE ]
Tomato Source
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I quite enjoy PvP occasionally. The real problem is ganking and overpoweredness can kill the enjoyment factor completely. When coupled with player attitudes of "It's a PvP zone, deal with it" it can be incredibly frustrating, especially when they're singling the more vocal players out just to be an annoyance.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are not having problems with any COH-related issues, youre having problem with MMO PVP and how it is implemented. There are lots of issues that make MMO PVP inherently unbalanced and which people choose to be blind of repeatedly. And then they complain about obvious issues.
- MMORPG is meant to be multiplayer. Result: in PVP you get One versus Many 'ganks'. Nothing you can do about it, except bring a bigger mob with you to fight.
- MMORPG is RPG, its about 'improving' a character, growing in levels, getting better items etc. Result: In PVP you will get veteran, 'uber', buffed to the limit characters versus weak beginner characters. Nothing you can do about it, apart from improving your character and in the process waste more time with the game that you pay for. Nothing to do with balance. Its just something every MMO player takes for granted.
If you can clear above hurdles, THEN you may get somewhere where player skill is a factor, but 95% of the time above issues just fudge it all up.
For instance, it never ceases to amaze me why nearly everybody who isnt very good at pvp, insists on PVPing at the level limit, in Recluses victory and so on, even though they know thats when the characters are at the height of the unbalance.. Characters are stocked full with IOs and what not. Why fight there? Because everybody WANTS that their CHARACTER is so uber, that they get the win. Then they INSIST that its about skill when they win...even though most of the time its anything but. They are just replacing the lack of skill with the characters powers.
Majority of playerbase arent actually interested about improving their skill. They just want easy wins. This isnt bad in itself...but when they start bragging that they win with their skill..phaugh.
I never manage to understand some people.
Some of the skill is knowing how to get easy kills, I agree with what you've said though. I am currently in the process of optimising a character for Warburg fights, buying all the level 40 IOs so I have set bonuses at that level. Then when PvP is at its most balanced I can tip the scales in my favour.
I see what I said went completely by you.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I quite enjoy PvP occasionally. The real problem is ganking and overpoweredness can kill the enjoyment factor completely. When coupled with player attitudes of "It's a PvP zone, deal with it" it can be incredibly frustrating, especially when they're singling the more vocal players out just to be an annoyance.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are not having problems with any COH-related issues, youre having problem with MMO PVP and how it is implemented. There are lots of issues that make MMO PVP inherently unbalanced and which people choose to be blind of repeatedly. And then they complain about obvious issues.
- MMORPG is meant to be multiplayer. Result: in PVP you get One versus Many 'ganks'. Nothing you can do about it, except bring a bigger mob with you to fight.
- MMORPG is RPG, its about 'improving' a character, growing in levels, getting better items etc. Result: In PVP you will get veteran, 'uber', buffed to the limit characters versus weak beginner characters. Nothing you can do about it, apart from improving your character and in the process waste more time with the game that you pay for. Nothing to do with balance. Its just something every MMO player takes for granted.
If you can clear above hurdles, THEN you may get somewhere where player skill is a factor, but 95% of the time above issues just fudge it all up.
For instance, it never ceases to amaze me why nearly everybody who isnt very good at pvp, insists on PVPing at the level limit, in Recluses victory and so on, even though they know thats when the characters are at the height of the unbalance.. Characters are stocked full with IOs and what not. Why fight there? Because everybody WANTS that their CHARACTER is so uber, that they get the win. Then they INSIST that its about skill when they win...even though most of the time its anything but. They are just replacing the lack of skill with the characters powers.
Majority of playerbase arent actually interested about improving their skill. They just want easy wins. This isnt bad in itself...but when they start bragging that they win with their skill..phaugh.
I never manage to understand some people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Massive full quote!
I concur. 
People do want easy wins and will wait for someone taking down pillboxes to get to low health to get it. Where the skill in that is. I don't know. Some people like to look good by using all their insps for 2 mins defeating 3 people who've ran out and then leaves the zone like a hero going off into the sunset leaving people to ask.."who was that masked man?"..no I don't see the skill in that neither.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
People do want easy wins and will wait for someone taking down pillboxes to get to low health to get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree that many people will go some length to make their toon uber and get easy kills, and that this makes it harder for people with less time/resources. How should a player proceed when they spot an opposing player taking down pillboxes?
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
[ QUOTE ]
Shame moving this post hear
If you dont play PVP then you would not necessarily come into the PVP area and so would miss this post completely!
Considering how much debate it was generating were it was ..
[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't actually had time to read the thread yet, since the entire thing appeared while I was away. It is a PvP thread, however, and has been moved to the PvP forum on that basis. I may well move it back once I've read it.