Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
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TO ATTRACT NONPVPERS INTO PVP ZONES YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO THEM. NOT TO PEOPLE ALLREADY PVPING.
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This isn't as good an idea as you may think. We already have rewards in PvP zones, and this only creates ill will between PvPers and PvEers.
"We want Shivans so we can do a hard TF!"
"Lol, it's a PvP zone so I can fight you if I like"
"But there's no other way to get Shivans!"
and so forth.
If there were PvP rewards, they need to be for PVP, not for PvEing in PvP zones, and they need to have a negligble effect on PvE. (Like the Guildwars lion emote)
Indeed. RV has the heavies to try and level the playing field for those without PvP builds. What do PvPers do? They moan about them and ask for them to be removed.
Things that would encorage non-PvPers into PvP have a negative impact on the PvP expreience of those who are already enjoying it.
Giving the PvPers what they want will do nothing to encorage non-PvPers to take it up.
It's a no win situation.
I really should do something about this signature.
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TO ATTRACT NONPVPERS INTO PVP ZONES YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO THEM. NOT TO PEOPLE ALLREADY PVPING.
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This isn't as good an idea as you may think. We already have rewards in PvP zones, and this only creates ill will between PvPers and PvEers.
"We want Shivans so we can do a hard TF!"
"Lol, it's a PvP zone so I can fight you if I like"
"But there's no other way to get Shivans!"
and so forth.
If there were PvP rewards, they need to be for PVP, not for PvEing in PvP zones, and they need to have a negligble effect on PvE. (Like the Guildwars lion emote)
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That I'd agree with; adding tempting goodies to PvP zones that the PvEers can pick up and take away will just lead to them dashing in after the rewards and actively avoiding PvP while they're there.
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There are lots of games with good PvP, but very few games which are as much fun PvE as CoX. It should focus on adding more of what it does well, not fiddling with something it does badly.
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This sentence and Cognito's 5 personal conclusions sum up my feelings pretty well.
Ok, I'm already getting my PvP from a different game and only really using CoH/V for the PvE, so I'm horribly biased in what I'm about to say... but I think the Devs should focus on the core PvE rather than trying to majorly revamp the PvP into something it's never going to be (i.e. as good as PvP in games designed mainly for PvP) - and I bet I'm not in the minority in feeling that.
I have no opposition to some PvP tweaks, as long as it doesn't burn up lots of dev time - but the Devs will never be able to make the PvP here as satisfying/rewarding as many PvPers would like, not without neglecting/ruining the fantastic PvE we already have. Most MMOs that have aimed for the middle ground (being good for both PvE and PvP) have tended to fall between two stools and end up being mediocre at both PvE and PvP.
But it's moot anyway - CoH/V launched as a pure PvE game so the PvP will never be more than a "tacked-on" extra. It remains to be seen if an MMO designed from the start and launched with an equal balance of both playstyles can succeed (I guess we'll find out when WAR launches).
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TO ATTRACT NONPVPERS INTO PVP ZONES YOU NEED TO APPEAL TO THEM. NOT TO PEOPLE ALLREADY PVPING.
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't as good an idea as you may think. We already have rewards in PvP zones, and this only creates ill will between PvPers and PvEers.
"We want Shivans so we can do a hard TF!"
"Lol, it's a PvP zone so I can fight you if I like"
"But there's no other way to get Shivans!"
and so forth.
If there were PvP rewards, they need to be for PVP, not for PvEing in PvP zones, and they need to have a negligble effect on PvE. (Like the Guildwars lion emote)
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I didnt say anything about rewards. I said that to atract PvE plyers to PvP,its them you need to listen to, not hardcore PvP players.
Personally, rewards wouldnt tempt me to PvP zones. As has been said, even if they did, I would jump in at 3.00 am, grab reward, and scarper at any actual PvP.
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It would need a lot more than a "little" time, and given that a lot of CoX players aren't here for the PvP, they would be rather cross if the devs waisted yet more vast quantities of time on it instead of adding PvE content.
There are lots of games with good PvP, but very few games which are as much fun PvE as CoX. It should focus on adding more of what it does well, not fiddling with something it does badly.
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But with an expanded dev team, they could now have a dedicated PvP fixer, while still have more people than before to work on the other stuff.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It would need a lot more than a "little" time, and given that a lot of CoX players aren't here for the PvP, they would be rather cross if the devs waisted yet more vast quantities of time on it instead of adding PvE content.
There are lots of games with good PvP, but very few games which are as much fun PvE as CoX. It should focus on adding more of what it does well, not fiddling with something it does badly.
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But with an expanded dev team, they could now have a dedicated PvP fixer, while still have more people than before to work on the other stuff.
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This.
I agree that the PvE content should be the focus but it doesn't mean they shouldn't spend at least some time improving the PvP (ideally for both the core PvPers and those PvEers wanting to try it out, maybe not in the same zone though 
).
One thing i'd really like to see (not just for the PvP), which has been mentioned by the dev team, is the ability for both Heroes and Villains to freely roam across all zones of both factions, obviously the PvP flag for each player shouldn't be automatically 'on' apart from players in oposition teritory or free fire zones (the current PvP zones for example) but players in a home faction zone can 'toggle on' thir PvP flag by attacking an enemy player or by entering a free fire zone, with their PvP flag toggling back off an hour after their last attack on an enemy player or leaving a free fire or oposite faction zone. The only exceptions to this should be aoe powers (damage auras, pbaoe's and targetted aoe's) are ignored for PvP flag toggling and don't cause damage to any players when the caster's PvP flag is off so a player would have to make a targetted and intended attack to toggle their PvP flag on.
If this ever were to happen, PvPers, PvEers and RPers are onto a winner, but I somehow doubt it'll be for a very long time, if ever 
Ahh well, One can dream
I don't think you could have all zone open - it'd be too weird to have Villains hanging out under the Atlas statue - or Heroes chilling in Grandville.
There would have to be some zones where no enemy was allowed to enter.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Man at the end of the day the way I see it PvP could be the jewel in cox's crown. It'll take care and attention yes but really what other genre appeals so greatly to every possible fanatsy you ever had as a teenager. Man what do i care for a sniper/squadie/tank driver/artillery man charecter CoX gives a fabulous range of choices to expresss our 'Avatars' why can't this be intergrated to the 'great' battle between good and evil mind to mind as it where.
Galactic Games.
As so often happens in comics some vast powered cosmic being messes around with the earth because he's bored, grabbing powerful heroes and villains alike and throwing them into a war against each other, the area is its creation. Hence none of the enemy mobs, just PC heroes and Villains.
A mobless open PVP zone that would have actual in universe explanation for the lack of Longbow, Arachnos, Freakshow or whatever forces.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
"flogging a dead horse" is a pretty nice and descriptive way of putting it. I started this game for the atmosphere and teaming/PvE. Then someone got a vision and started fixing the things that was allready working. "Balance" became the keyword and some twisted way that over shadowed "fun". That is my perspective and as you might have guessed I am not overly thrilled about that... If someone likes the PvP and even has joined the game for that, fine.
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Indeed. RV has the heavies to try and level the playing field for those without PvP builds. What do PvPers do? They moan about them and ask for them to be removed.
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Aren't heavies there to try and let someone get near the turrents without dieing horribly? I seem to remember someone saying that.
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I don't think you could have all zone open - it'd be too weird to have Villains hanging out under the Atlas statue - or Heroes chilling in Grandville.
There would have to be some zones where no enemy was allowed to enter.
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Obviously you don't want to make it easy to get there but i think it should be possible, just imagine a team of level 50 villains turning up at atlas, quicky followed by half a dozen level 50 heroes and a few level 50 NPC's to 'shoo them off' while the strictly PvE players cheer them on alongside a few new lowbies thinking 'Wow! I want to be able to do that one day!"
Pure Heaven! 
How many PvE players would'nt be tempted to join in and maybe even tag along for a counter attack in that situation!?
Id say 100%. Most of whom would leave the zone. Many of whom who would be disgusted.
The attempts the devs have made to make the laughable PvP game are, in themselves, laughable.
I applaude them for the most part. But a CoV accolade badge needin Sirens Call?
Pathetic
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Most of whom would leave the game.
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Edited for truth.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Obviously you don't want to make it easy to get there but i think it should be possible, just imagine a team of level 50 villains turning up at atlas, quicky followed by half a dozen level 50 heroes and a few level 50 NPC's to 'shoo them off' while the strictly PvE players cheer them on alongside a few new lowbies thinking 'Wow! I want to be able to do that one day!"
Pure Heaven!
How many PvE players would'nt be tempted to join in and maybe even tag along for a counter attack in that situation!?
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There are reasons why most CoX players play CoX and not an open-world PvP game, and the fact that the above doesn't happen is one of them.
As TG pointed out pages and pages ago, PvP in CoX isn't compatible with the way many of us play the game and want to build our characters. Bringing PvP into PvE zones would be CoX's NGE and it'd alienate everyone who plays it exactly because PvE and PvP are completely separate activities.
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Obviously you don't want to make it easy to get there but i think it should be possible, just imagine a team of level 50 villains turning up at atlas, quicky followed by half a dozen level 50 heroes and a few level 50 NPC's to 'shoo them off' while the strictly PvE players cheer them on alongside a few new lowbies thinking 'Wow! I want to be able to do that one day!"
Pure Heaven!
How many PvE players would'nt be tempted to join in and maybe even tag along for a counter attack in that situation!?
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This PvE player would be leaving the game double quick.
I have no problem with PvP but it's not really my scene. I will PvP in FNFC but I don't want open warfare thank you very much.
Happy to be on Defiant.
Global name @mereman
Member of P.E.R.C. Representing Defiant
Alts http://cit.cohtitan.com/profile/4488
CoH faces http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/mereman
Actually, I think the sport of droning would make it quite tough for anyone to survive long in an enemy zone 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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How many PvE players would'nt be tempted to join in and maybe even tag along for a counter attack in that situation!?
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Me forth. This seems to be something some people have trouble accepting, but a lot of PvEers don't PvP because they don't realise how fun it is, or the rewards aren't sufficient. A lot of us just don't want to PvP.
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Dont fool yourself in the past the amount of people considering PvP an abomination due to their previous experiences is pretty big. Despite the fact that CoH is far friendlier in terms of PKing,ganking,low level ganking and so on.
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/seconded.... A lot!
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A lot of us just don't want to PvP.
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Exactly. I was doing that all the way from the days of Doom and I'm bloody well done with PvP. I just don't want to do it. I like the MMO scene because the game mechanics appeal to me, I like building up characters and I like having lots of different options for making lots of different characters, and even though I have a personal space of about a hundred yards, I rather like having all these other pieces of sentient furniture about the place.
The biggest thing I like about CoX, and what keeps me playing it, is the focus on PvE. I might go into Recluses Victory to brutalise GG if I'm sure I can catch her in there, but otherwise, it can sod right off.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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I'm bloody well done with PvP.
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No true barbarian would ever say that
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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even though I have a personal space of about a hundred yards
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FFM you got some competion there mate.
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I'm bloody well done with PvP.
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No true barbarian would ever say that
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I might go into Recluses Victory to brutalise GG if I'm sure I can catch her in there.
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Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
It would need a lot more than a "little" time, and given that a lot of CoX players aren't here for the PvP, they would be rather cross if the devs waisted yet more vast quantities of time on it instead of adding PvE content.
There are lots of games with good PvP, but very few games which are as much fun PvE as CoX. It should focus on adding more of what it does well, not fiddling with something it does badly.
I really should do something about this signature.