Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
Well, I spent more than 2 hours PvPing in Siren's Call on Defiant last night, so it was quite healthy 24 hours ago 
However, I'm not sure if that's the way it is every night or not.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
CoH was never really built for PvP. Some builds (Alright MOST builds) are just fodder in it and it does feel very tacked on.
Sure it's fun, but i'd never take it seriously.
It should never be taken seriously no matter how good it is - that just leads to bad attitudes.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I love the smell of flamebait in the ni.. mo... late o'clock.
Esoteric builds?Demenented hoppers?
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And if you disagree what would you suggestetions to improve the interest in PvP beyond those 'hardcore' fans.
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Next time read the PvP forum cause there are plenty threads about this.
The reason PvP is not so popular in this game is because a)was never advertised depite the original design had PvP in it
b)majority of game population in this game are comic fans and people that come to this game for the immersion hence first they love spandex and then anything else about the game.
c)Casual gamers who consider PvP an abomination.
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The exclusion of all but about 20% (random estimate)
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That is very random and totally inaccurate.Besides in all games that inclue pvp you will never EVER find a 100% pvp viability of archetypes for PvP so kina pointless asking about this.(with the exception of Warhammer but thats for different reasons)
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b)majority of game population in this game are comic fans and people that come to this game for the immersion hence first they love spandex and then anything else about the game.
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But the idea of being able to have Heroes and Villains fighting each other is stil attractive to a lot of comic fans, I think.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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b)majority of game population in this game are comic fans and people that come to this game for the immersion hence first they love spandex and then anything else about the game.
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But the idea of being able to have Heroes and Villains fighting each other is stil attractive to a lot of comic fans, I think.
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Its obviously fine as long as the opposite team is not also human controlled.
Dont fool yourself in the past the amount of people considering PvP an abomination due to their previous experiences is pretty big. Despite the fact that CoH is far friendlier in terms of PKing,ganking,low level ganking and so on.
if you make stalkers much less 'i win' combat then I know my entire sg would pvp more.
Sick and tired of the stupid 2 hit deaths they manage on all but tankers, even the +perception does nothing unless you happen to be carrying a full pouch of yellows AND use them at the right time.
Also the fact that certain classes perform better in pvp is just the same because if people want to pvp they will make one of those sets.
A good way to get pvp going would be to offer some kind of reward for killing a certain amount of villains/heroes etc like a costume piece or something, rather than just the one badge, award more for maybe 10 kills/defeats etc.
As it is there is no reason for people to want to pvp, which suits the devs just fine because it solves all the flaming posts on the boards saying 'Zomg nerf dis NOWZ'
P.s I notice the irony that i complained over stalkers before i wrote the last paragraph lol. Its 6:10am and im tired :P
I think PvP can be fun at times, even if slightly unbalanced. As long as it's group PvP where you can play on everyones strength and weaknesses.
The biggest throw off of PvP is the holier than thou attitude it incurs. It seems if you PvP you are suddenly better than everyone else. Then there's the thing when a PvP'er gets beaten, no matter if they suck or the other player just that much better, it's the classes fault and they have to be nerfed due to it.
And ontop of all that is the animosity towards other players, PvP is apparently serious business, cause if you don't do exaktly what the other player thinks you should do, no matter how impossible it is. You suck, and they will tell you that they suck in the worst possible way. Even if they're a guildmate of yours and you been friends for years they gonna [censored] and moan at you.
Just my own experiences with PvP... results may vary.
PvP has is serious drawbacks in terms of AT/Powers,yes. But still:If you play the game for fun, I think pvp is one of the most fun things you can do. Regular mobs are not that intelligent. In PvP you have to really think about what you're doing. 
Defiant:
Cunundrum, Defender (Generic Supergroup 101)
Other servers too.
New Global: @cunundrumEU
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The reason PvP is not so popular in this game is because a)was never advertised depite the original design had PvP in it
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I've never bought this. Yes, there's that video of the prototype suggesting that PvP was in from scratch, but the majority of the evidence regarding the way PvP is implemented suggests that any original design was scrapped and that PvP was glued in (or back in) using super glue and chewing gum when CoV was heading for the shelves.
At a guess, PvP was pulled because it was not needed with no player villains. By the time it was needed, the original design had been changed so much (to something that actually worked, such is the way of designs) without consideration of PvP that we have the current "glued on as an afterthought" system. I've seen it in other systems. Hell, I've written things where someone wanted some feature put back in and had to be told it was impossible or would take ages because the design no longer accomodated it, even though it was in the original design.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
PvP was there from the start but only via the arena.
The areas were there anyway, if they worked in issue 0 i don't remember, i've still not set foot in one.
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PvP was there from the start but only via the arena.
The areas were there anyway, if they worked in issue 0 i don't remember, i've still not set foot in one.
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Neko... do not speak of what you were not around for. It makes you look... well, young.
The Arenas were not even in the game when it went live in the EU, about a year after the US release. We went live just after Issue 3 was released, IIRC, and the Arenas were introduced in Issue 4 (The Collosseum) which was a horribly buggy experience.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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b)majority of game population in this game are comic fans and people that come to this game for the immersion hence first they love spandex and then anything else about the game.
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But the idea of being able to have Heroes and Villains fighting each other is stil attractive to a lot of comic fans, I think.
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Its obviously fine as long as the opposite team is not also human controlled.
Dont fool yourself in the past the amount of people considering PvP an abomination due to their previous experiences is pretty big. Despite the fact that CoH is far friendlier in terms of PKing,ganking,low level ganking and so on.
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Not everyone is like that though. I used to be pretty good at CS, I'm still decent at CoD1/Allied Assault/CoD2 where they're still played, I got a pretty good rep in one of the respected WW2OL squads and I loved the RvR in DAOC back in the day and the idea of superpowered battles between heroes and villains is a really attractive idea.
Thing is in CoX it's very easy to min/max extremely uber PvP builds and I, like many other CoX players, CBA with min/maxing just to win. For me making characters in CoX is all about making characters that I'd like to read about in comics, with comic book style builds and powers, but they don't stand a chance against the munchkinised FTW builds that dominate PvP here. CoX PvP just doesn't cater for my kind of player.
That said I really loved the big PvP zone events like that one in Siren's Call ages ago and the Warburg mass event on the test server that time. The main reason for that was because there were all kinds of builds in those, including a probable majority of "character" builds, so people like me could achieve something for the team without getting immediately slaughtered by the ubber.
Looking back this was why RvR used to be so good in DAOC; everyone could find a role regardless of their build, because the uber builds were balanced by the average ones and they were never that much more powerful than average builds in the first place.
hospital rez penalty and the gross unbalance of ATs did it for me, the former could have been avoided but the latter was sorta to be expected with the most diverse AT filled game of its kind.
@ExtraGonk
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PvP was there from the start but only via the arena.
The areas were there anyway, if they worked in issue 0 i don't remember, i've still not set foot in one.
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The Arenas weren't there at all until I4 or I5.
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PvP was there from the start but only via the arena.
The areas were there anyway, if they worked in issue 0 i don't remember, i've still not set foot in one.
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The Arenas weren't there at all until I4 or I5.
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I4. Slow, BF, very slow.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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PvP was there from the start but only via the arena.
The areas were there anyway, if they worked in issue 0 i don't remember, i've still not set foot in one.
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Neko... do not speak of what you were not around for. It makes you look... well, young.
The Arenas were not even in the game when it went live in the EU, about a year after the US release. We went live just after Issue 3 was released, IIRC, and the Arenas were introduced in Issue 4 (The Collosseum) which was a horribly buggy experience.
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Eh like i said, i was never intrested in PvP so i never paid attention to it. I seem to remember some arena looking structure in one zone, but it prolly didn't work back then.
I've played this game since three days before it launched in the US, my memories of that time are a little fuzzy.
But whatever.
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Not everyone is like that though.
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I agree with you that not everyone is like this.Still the majority that comes into this game in my opinion is comic fans and people looking for the immersion of the comic book.Not so much attention is paid to game mechanics,end game etc etc and this is the reason why development has been down a different road so far and i am not implying its a bad one(warning: this is my opinion so dont have a stroke some of you).
About PvP balance.This game is balanced totally around team.1vs1 is a total rock paper scissor situation.Even the most uber build has weaknesses in 1vs1. Biggest problem or difference if you like in this game is the extremely high mobility.Its funny but the best part of the game is also what renders 4 AT's and all their combos as "non viable" in PvP in terms of dps.Unfortunately the developers have yet to recognise this or havent been able to workaround this.
As far as builds goes,in zonal pvp where things are totally casual even SO builds have no problem. Now as far as the uber builds goes like in every game some people are more dedicated and less casual about being good in some aspects of the game.Removing this ability to excel in the competitive aspect of the game is the same as killing this part of the game.There is no workaround.Some people will always have better,stronger more uber builds because thats all they do.PvP.
As far as the event and how fun it was i have to agree it was loads of fun. I wish they had capitalized on that and had given initiatives to step into the PvP zones.Or even adjust the rewards to the current state of the game.Its unacceptable that the biggest PvP rewards are 1 badge for maxing out your pvp reputation and SO's from sirens call.
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For me making characters in CoX is all about making characters that I'd like to read about in comics, with comic book style builds and powers, but they don't stand a chance against the munchkinised FTW builds that dominate PvP here.
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And this right here is the essence. There is no way to approach PvP from an immersion point of view unless placed on a more large scale view that will balance the uber builds through sheer numbers.Open up Faction vs Faction in CoH,add global war and rewards for it.They tried to take PvP to that direction with RV. Was a good idea stupidly implemented. Who cares about pillboxes and PvE in a PvP zone. Create a zone that has a world defining item and make the zone trigger an event every day for 2-3 hours allowing a fight over control of the item/zone and a worldwide message that the event is beginning.The faction that gets control of the zone enjoys for the rest of the day +inf or +prestige or something worth while for the faction.Tested recipe that worked in RF and a lot other games that evolved around PvP.Made it massive and loads of fun.
Anyway i ramble on and literally lost the plot 
PvP is fun in this game and in a good way in terms of balance.Problem is no rewards,no inititative to PvP and no dedicated PvP developer like most other games.
EDIT: Would also love to see broadcast/local between heroes and villains in PvP zones locked off.
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And ontop of all that is the animosity towards other players, PvP is apparently serious business, cause if you don't do exaktly what the other player thinks you should do, no matter how impossible it is. You suck, and they will tell you that they suck in the worst possible way. Even if they're a guildmate of yours and you been friends for years they gonna [censored] and moan at you.
Just my own experiences with PvP... results may vary.
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Change sg/vg, no one needs all that rubbish.
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Esoteric builds?Demenented hoppers?
[ QUOTE ]
And if you disagree what would you suggestetions to improve the interest in PvP beyond those 'hardcore' fans.
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Next time read the PvP forum cause there are plenty threads about this.
The reason PvP is not so popular in this game is because a)was never advertised depite the original design had PvP in it
b)majority of game population in this game are comic fans and people that come to this game for the immersion hence first they love spandex and then anything else about the game.
c)Casual gamers who consider PvP an abomination.
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The exclusion of all but about 20% (random estimate)
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That is very random and totally inaccurate.Besides in all games that inclue pvp you will never EVER find a 100% pvp viability of archetypes for PvP so kina pointless asking about this.(with the exception of Warhammer but thats for different reasons)
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I disagree with B and C strongly. Especially B. Urrgh. Spandex.
I'm a fairly casual gamer who doesn't consider PvP an abomination, but Zonal PvP always seems pointless with the sort of toons I play (I've occasionally gone into zones and been pretty ineffecual) and to be honest the hardcore PvP doesn't appeal to me. Even reading at the X4 thread put me off the idea of entering it.
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I'm a fairly casual gamer who doesn't consider PvP an abomination
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You deserve a medal then around here
Problem is no matter with the current PvP design if u are a solo player you cant possibly enjoy PvP that much.Because teams prevail in zones.
This is why Battle Arenas in WoW worked.They gave chance to solo players enjoy PvP too.You didnt need a team you could get one for sure.
I don't see how a game that has superfast travel and melee ATs could ever have balanced PvP (unless you made PvP zone a 10' x 10' box).
However, if people don't care so much about winning in PvP, and don't create builds based solely around winning in PvP, then it is a good laugh.
Here is an idea: upon entering PvP you are given a completly random character to play.
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I'm a fairly casual gamer who doesn't consider PvP an abomination
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Me too.
I really should do something about this signature.
You know like the costume slots where you can change your costume, might be we could have one PvE and one PvP powersets slot. In which case you can have a PvE build for regular play and have the option to switch to the PvP build upon (and only upon) entering the PvP zones.
Given that PvP was a late addition to the CoH format and
1/The need for somewhat esoteric builds
2/The demented 'space hopper jousting' style of PvP
3/The exclusion of all but about 20% (random estimate) of powersets for viable PvP toons
Are NC flogging a dead horse here or do people disagree?
And if you disagree what would you suggestetions to improve the interest in PvP beyond those 'hardcore' fans.