BurningFist_EU

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the power effect is very cool but the colour...

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We're not joined with the US boards yet

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Yeah, I want to keep my aluminIum armour

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Just remember that tomato rhymes with potato

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You don't say potato like that.

I'm very much liking the sound of the Enhanced Difficulty Options.

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I was only saying, and I re-itterate... 31st of July is SLAPBANG in the middle of everyones holiday, it's reasonable to beleive that people will be on holiday.

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So what?

Is a double XP weekend really as important or as much fun as going on holiday?

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Ok Avatea lemme change the question slightly.


If i could guarantee i wouldn't get caught, and were to use only tools the devs created (i.e the exp button)

Of course i would. And so would you. And so would everyone

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Why would they?

I always like the Council and 5th Column. They are crunchy on the outside, soft and chewy in the middle. Plus, battering fascists never gets old.

Now that looks interesting.

My only (relatively small) reservation is teaming with MMs in CoH. I've never been a huge fan as they tend to be a bit overwhelming in teams, and its one of the reasons I play red side much less than blue. Still, it looks like a good development and should really help to shake the game up.

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To be honest Posi is just as bad at PR as Jack, he really should get War Witch to proof read his statements before he puts them out.

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If they made War Witch the public face of CoX it would only be a matter of time before the self-appointed "everyone" hated her.

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So why do you think Positron is coming down hard on MA abuse if there's nothing wrong with it?

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I don't think he will.

Think it'll just be a threat, the games not in a healthy enough state for a mass ban.

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I agree with you here, that's part of the reason why it's been so hilarious seeing so much nerdrage over this. Obviously a certain amount of farming and PLing is tolerated, that's been self-evident over the years since release, but the MA has been on a completely different scale.

But here's the thing, he's not talking about mass bans or hammering anyone who's PLed a few levels, he's talking about establishing the boundaries of acceptable use and setting some harsh penalties for rinsing the hell out of the MA. This was always going to happen. It's pure naivety to think it wasn't - hence the nerdrage.

Now, if Positron approaches things elegently, he'll look at why people PL and over-farm and give something back that addresses those reasons. A revamp of the first 22 levels to give new players a better introduction to the game and giving advanced starts as veteran rewards would solve a lot of problems.

But before they can do that, which will take a chunk of development time, they have to stop the MA abuse as soon as they can. Very few people are seeing it, but being able to level in a matter of hours, en-masse, with any build, and without being part of a specialised, organised group of players is extremely bad for the game. Why? Because it reduces the length of new subscriptions - simple as.



I've loved reading people banging on about Positron's ego as if pettiness is what motivates game developers. But let's get this the right way round. For us, having a list of level 50s is nothing important, in fact CoX isn't that big a deal for any of us being that it's just something we do to use up our spare time. Now for Positron and Paragon Studios, it's their livelihood, it's a roof over their heads and food in their kids' bellies. They have much more at stake in this game than any number of egocentric players with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement will ever have. So when they do things like this, it's because they're doing what they need to do in order to keep this game going, because the future of this game is more important to them than to all of us put together.

When the ragequitters have grown up a bit and garnered a few responsibilities of their own, they'll probably have a better grasp on why this is happening and why, so often in life, things "aren't fair."

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Farming was never punished before and its been around since release, so they cant just say : " Oh well we decided its forbidden now and therefore we delete all chars that ever farmed, be it swarms in Creys Folly 4 years in the past, the hero freak map or certain villain maps.


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But there's farming, and then there's farming - and I think people hititng 50 in less than a day crosses the line of what the devs are prepared to allow.

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That's exactly it, and that's why this whole thread and its ongoing comedy of outrage has been such hilarious reading all night.

It's obviously an abuse of the MA to use it to level character to 50 in a matter of hours. How, in any reality, can that be seen as the way it was supposed to be used, or the game supposed to be played?

The issue here isn't farming, it's the systematic abuse of a system that was supposed to be a flagship feature of CoX. Instead, that abuse has made the whole game a laughing stock. And people defend that abuse? Not only defend it but refuse to take any kind of responsibility for taking part in it, even to the point of saying things along the lines of "the devs made me do it, it's not my fault!"

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Pretty sure you could level in hours before MA.

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Way to miss the point.

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Not really, since another flag ship of the CoX game, is the sidekick system which has always allowed 1-50 in a day.

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So why do you think Positron is coming down hard on MA abuse if there's nothing wrong with it?

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Farming was never punished before and its been around since release, so they cant just say : " Oh well we decided its forbidden now and therefore we delete all chars that ever farmed, be it swarms in Creys Folly 4 years in the past, the hero freak map or certain villain maps.


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But there's farming, and then there's farming - and I think people hititng 50 in less than a day crosses the line of what the devs are prepared to allow.

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That's exactly it, and that's why this whole thread and its ongoing comedy of outrage has been such hilarious reading all night.

It's obviously an abuse of the MA to use it to level character to 50 in a matter of hours. How, in any reality, can that be seen as the way it was supposed to be used, or the game supposed to be played?

The issue here isn't farming, it's the systematic abuse of a system that was supposed to be a flagship feature of CoX. Instead, that abuse has made the whole game a laughing stock. And people defend that abuse? Not only defend it but refuse to take any kind of responsibility for taking part in it, even to the point of saying things along the lines of "the devs made me do it, it's not my fault!"

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Pretty sure you could level in hours before MA.

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Way to miss the point.

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Farming was never punished before and its been around since release, so they cant just say : " Oh well we decided its forbidden now and therefore we delete all chars that ever farmed, be it swarms in Creys Folly 4 years in the past, the hero freak map or certain villain maps.


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But there's farming, and then there's farming - and I think people hititng 50 in less than a day crosses the line of what the devs are prepared to allow.

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That's exactly it, and that's why this whole thread and its ongoing comedy of outrage has been such hilarious reading all night.

It's obviously an abuse of the MA to use it to level character to 50 in a matter of hours. How, in any reality, can that be seen as the way it was supposed to be used, or the game supposed to be played?

The issue here isn't farming, it's the systematic abuse of a system that was supposed to be a flagship feature of CoX. Instead, that abuse has made the whole game a laughing stock. And people defend that abuse? Not only defend it but refuse to take any kind of responsibility for taking part in it, even to the point of saying things along the lines of "the devs made me do it, it's not my fault!"

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I can't even play as I would do normally until it all clears up, in case any of my badge hunting becomes retro-actively removed or even illegal.

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Unless you're an "egregious" abuser of the MA you should be fine. So should everyone else, if you read what Posi's actually saying.

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It's not an exploit!!

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You don't get to decide that.

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Yeah - if the devs say something is an exploit, then it is an exploit.

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Exactly.

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It's not an exploit!!

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You don't get to decide that.

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Why play through the pretty boring early level stuff?

The arcs that send you through umpteen loading screens, just to talk to some guy the opposite end of the city?

It's not like you could even use the learning to play excuse any way, as post SO's most power set combos play quite differently than when on DOs and TOs

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This is a fair point. The first 20 levels of CoX are really badly dated now; MMOs have moved on from the slow start model. People expect to be entertained right from the word go now, and that's entirely fair enough.

Most of my RL gamer friends have never got a character to level 20 before quitting because those first levels can be so soul-crushingly slow. I'm currently levelling a BS/Shield Scrapper and up until dinging 20 and Stamina last night he literally didn't have enough endurance to use his primary and secondary powersets at the same time in a fight that had adds or ambushes. That's got to be wrong.

Maybe the best thing for CoX would be to revamp the whole first 20 levels. Allow travel powers earlier, lower the levels for DOs and SOs, rebalance Endurance costs (something players have been clamouring for for years), reduce the number of "utility" powers that leading to Stamina and a Travel power. Revamp some of the creakier early mission arcs to make them feel a bit more 2009. Basically let new players feel like they are super-heroes.

For longer term players, give advanced starts as vet rewards. They don't need to do all that early stuff again, it's just a time sink after having done it on a few alts already. A lot of people are going to PL their way into the interesting levels anyway, if they don't get tired of the early stuff altogether and quit, so let them make new alts at higher levels. What possible harm can it do?

Give better rewards for doing non-MA content. Maybe more temp powers and unlockable costume pieces that are tied to specific arcs. Maybe give special recipes that can't be sold or traded, and that can be collected to create unique IO sets depending on the path the player takes through the standard content - all locked to arcs and not buyable with yet another interchangeable currency.

Leave the MA as it is, just give a better search and categorisation system, and perhaps move AE buildings out of the starter zones. Obviously, just from reading the forums lately, a lot of people enjoy farming and all that metagaming stuff so leave them to it. If it's unbalancing the game then balance the rest of it accomodate.

Basically, if players are farming instead of playing the game as it was no doubt intended to be played then look at why that is. Then fix whatever's wrong with the "normal" game that drives them to farm and PL.

And remember that new players are what's going to keep this game going. Impress them. Make them feel like superheroes. That's something that CoX doesn't do at the moment. I think anyone who's played for even a short time can agree with that.

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Make the game more enjoyable as for me after 51months i cant face Frostfire or any of the others im sick to the back teeth of them.

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Have you tried the Mercedes Sheldon arcs? They won't get you loads of levels or inf, but they're damn good fun.

I'm a bit confused about what you say about market prices and having to farm to pay them, because whenever I bring that up I get shot down. By farmers, funnily enough.

One way to stop people making farm missions that consist only of high XP mobs would be to stop people adding standard mobs to custom groups.

As far as I can figure it that seems to be the only way to force Comms Officer (or any other standard mob) only spawns.

To take some of the sting out of it for legitimate users of standard mobs in their custom groups, perhaps we could use their costumes and set our own power sets for them. Basically make out own custom mobs that look like standard mobs.

Another thing that might help cut down on longer term players not wanting to mash their way through the admittedly tedious first 20 levels would be to give the option to start new character at certain levels, as part of the vet reward scheme.

So, as an off the top of the head example, after a year you can start new characters at level 14, after 18 months, at level 20, after 2 years at level 32.

It's a bit of a controversial idea but maybe that'd help everyone and help ease the acceptance of PLing and the need to do it. If you're the sort to need to do it.

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My concern was the quote I seen somewhere about Positron's motion towards farmers, note he said farmers not MA farmers, so I have no idea why he's all of a sudden creating a lynch mob at this time since farming has been around since Inventions, and powerlevelling since well it started... Plus, I'm not even 'delving' into his quote that much, he just said 'farmers' in general. So it could be an overhaul of experience gaining, or some sort of preventative coding...

Fury

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I think it's fair to assume, given the massive, game-breaking explosion in farming/PLing, that he was talking about the farming as it stands now.

New players are vital to the survival of CoX and being able to "finish" the game several times over in their free month is going to hit the game hard. Also, when these new players leave after their free month is up, their word of mouth is going to be pretty scathing. There will be LOLs and LMAOs.

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the fact that you CAN get to 50 and enjoy the scope of a 50 in just a few hours will appeal to some people ...what is wrong with that ?

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If new players can get several level 50s in their free month, what are the likely to do when that free month is up?
A) Sub up and become long term players
B) Quit and tell their friends that CoX is a farming game that you can finish in a few hours

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The worst thing is that new players get sucked into this and thus missing out on the real content. Thinking what, no endgame? And leave.

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Yeah, that's the biggest danger of all IMO.

New players are coming to the game and getting multiple level 50s before their free month is up. The chances of them subbing up when that's over?

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I overwhelmingly got the impression that Posi thinks it's their game, they know what's best and sod the paying customer.

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It IS their game. They can't give players what they want because players want everything, they want it now, and they don't even want the same things as each other. You can't build an MMO on that basis.

Posi, like Jack Emmert and any other lead designer in the industry, have to have a "vision" for the game and they have to take a chance on that vision finding the audience they need to keep them in jobs.

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Sorry Burning. this is so wrong that to find wrong you'de have to double back on yourself.
This is a commercial product. Not a painting you create to put on your own living room wall.
It's like The Sinclair car. that was his car, wasn't it?
Fat lot of good it did him.

That is not how to run any business, never mind one that requires customer loyalty because you want them to keep shelling out month after month.

No-one in their right mind, in charge of a product with this amount of money attached to it goes on "their " vision.
It's like commercial suicide.
And yes I know Emmert did and now positron does too. Maybe its something to do with the way game designers think.
Or that the bosses don't have a proper business acumen.

You're supposed to find out how to make the game as
commercially viable as you can by research and deliver it.

That's it.

It's not an exact science but it's not rocket science either.

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Do you honestly believe that Emmert, Miller or any other designer goes off with millions of dollars and just makes it up as they go along as if making a videogame is just a vanity project? What kind of investor would give them that kind of money on that basis? It makes no sense, it obviously doesn't work that way no matter how much you spin it to make it sound like it might.

Of course you have to make a commercially viable product, and part of that commercial viability for a game is for it to be consistant, playable and well-developed. You can't get any of this by following the week-by-week reactions of parts of playerbase to work that's already in progress. You can only achieve that by having a vision for a consistent, playable and well-developed game that'll appeal to the most players you can get.

That's my point.

There's a point at which the designers and developers have to stick to the plan and, yes, say sod the players. Because if they don't they won't get anywhere and we'll end up with a game that tries to please everyone and satisfies no-one.

Another thing to remember is that you can't keep players forever. We're just not like that. I mean, look at the people leaving over this; the vast majority of them are long term players who have hardly ever taken a break from the game. Now, what does that signify? That the game has gone so wrong that the most loyal players are leaving? Or does it signify that they've got bored and are doing what other bored players have been doing every day since the game came out; leaving?

And what about their numbers? How many is it? A dozen? 20 maybe? It's hardly significant in the big picture, especially not when there's a free account reactivation which will pull in far more than that. It's a harsh numbers game in the end, as a businessman you know this, and customer loyalty can only go far. And, after 4-5 years their loyalty has, self-evidently, gone as far as it can. In fact I'd say it's stretched so thin that they're not in the game for what it is, because it doesn't satisfy them anymore and probably never will for any major length of time, no matter what is added for them. They've probably passed that tipping point between more interested and less bored.

Meanwhile there's a whole load of new players coming up through the game who don't have the same history with the game, and they need to feel as much a part of it as we longer-term players do. They need to feel catered for, they need their shiny new stuff to play through, they need that sense of ownership that comes from remembering what it was like before zone X came out. They need to be nurtured and pampered too, and that isn't always going to satisfy older players.

Anyway, I've gone on for ages. Point is, you can't give the players what they want because players aren't the same thing and don't want the same things. And, because you have to find the best line through the cloud, you're always going to make some players angry. There's no way not to.

It sucks but there you have it. Live with it or don't. It's your choice, not Matt Miller's.

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I handed over the opportunity for drama, everyone ran with it.

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Exactly. YOU started all the drama. We just said bye bye.

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Come on, FFM, your leaving post wasn't just saying goodbye was it? It was classic internet drama, right from the first few words.

Not that I don't understand why you posted that stuff, we've all posted things in the heat of the moment that we maybe wish we hadn't, but it's disengenuous to try and shift the blame and play the innocent.

Put your hand up to it or say nothing, but don't wriggle; people aren't that stupid and it makes you look bad.

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That would be good if it happened, but remember that it's a 45-50 TF so the entire zone would be very grey to people on it. Other than travelling through, and maybe doing a quick "defeat 20 Council for info" as part of the TF, TF teams wouldn't be able to find anything to actually do in Boomtown.

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Unless they revamped the map.

Oh wait... it's easier to add new zones

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No, not easier; just not much more time intensive.

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I'm starting to wonder if I know what drama and fanfare is (and, more importantly, isn't); when I made my post I made an effort to be as uncontentious as possible, thanked the devs and friends, said I'd most likely be back and wished everyone continuing fun.

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When a lot of players choose to leave at the same time, for the same reason and as a reaction to the same event, there's always going to be a dramatic impact. And, let's be honest, some (not all!) of those leaving posts certainly seemed measured for dramatic impact. Heat of the moment and all that, we've all done it I'm sure.

These forums have a tiny community and things that are said and done have an impact beyond their weight. How many times have we seen that happen over the years?

Anyway, to everyone who's leaving, good luck, have fun and all that stuff, and if you come back you'll probably find that, for all its faults, CoX is a great game all over again.

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It seems players leave due to being bored of 5 years of paragon, not because the games pants.

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Exactly. Furthermore loads of other long-term players have got bored of CoX before now and have left and returned (some loads of times) without any kind of forum drama, and they returned because the game is great. I think some of those who left over the past couple of days put too much on the devs to alleviate their boredom instead of taking a break, doing something different, and thereby fixing it themselves.

On a cheerier note, the US forums haven't suffered any of the nonsense we have over here, probably because their population is bigger and not so dominated by a handful of personalities.

Also, all the drama here has overshadowed some of the more interesting things that came out of Posi's Q&A thing. For example the dev team has grown from the 10-15 that kept the lights on since CoV up to 50. That's 50. 50. Five-zero. Ten times five.

And that's a shed-load of developers for a game that is apparently planning on trundling into the future with nothing new or exciting on the horizon.