Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
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Has PvP faceplanted? No, because it has never been alive.
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I beg to differ, son.
Ok couldn't read all the posts, but I'd like to add this:
Seems to me there are two camps:
PVP great vs PVP bad
PVP great subdivides into
PVP Uber vs PVP Casual
I've not played any other MMO. I'm here as a hardcore (hardcape?) spandex fan. It's the comicbook thing for me.
I love PVP in moderation. It's not all I do but it's an added dimension to the game that works very well for me. I'm definitely in the PVP Casual Good camp. There are a lot of PVPers who want to be in the Uber category, which is totally fine but to do that I reckon you've got to dedicate a lot of time to a single toon to do that, and build that toon solely for PVP and frankly, I'm not prepared to sacrifice the best of PVE to be a good PVPer on my favourite toons. I like being able to fly, so to have to take CJ and SS is a bit meh...
So, dipping a toe in the PVP water from time to time, like FNFC (and look for news of that later) is great. But, I suspect to those who are not into PVP, it'll be tough to change their mind especially if they have poor initial experiences. However, if you could arrange a n00b event for novices or people who don't know a huge amount about it... I wonder how that would appeal
Thelonious Monk
I wonder of the people that don't PVP what proprtion of those people come under the various reasons, namely "I don't PVP because:"
* It's difficult to get in to
* Put off by trash talk
* I'm not interested in combat against other players / I prefer PVE
* PVP mechanics are broken / imbalanced
Personally, I'd have thought most of the non PVPers would come under the first 3 categories. If you wanted to PVP, reason 4 probably wouldn't bother you that much, because you'd find ways of getting round it. If you didn't want to PVP, it wouldn't matter how well implemented it was, you probably still wouldn't?
Fair? Or have I missed the point entirely?
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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That's why you pool all the potential players from both sides of the Atlantic using the Battlezone servers.
And I can't believe anyone took that even vaguely seriously.
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That's actually something that's been mentioned as a work in progress or at least an idea the dev team has looked at.
Personally I think it's a brilliant idea and would solve a bunch of stuff, nothing wrong with ripping off good ideas from other games. Heck I wish WoW had SK/Exemps.
Shadowplay - Scrapper DM/DA SL 50
Doctor Storm- Brute SS/Elec SL 50
"speed boosts someone in the face" - Cognito
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I wonder of the people that don't PVP what proprtion of those people come under the various reasons, namely "I don't PVP because:"
* It's difficult to get in to
* Put off by trash talk
* I'm not interested in combat against other players / I prefer PVE
* PVP mechanics are broken / imbalanced
Personally, I'd have thought most of the non PVPers would come under the first 3 categories. If you wanted to PVP, reason 4 probably wouldn't bother you that much, because you'd find ways of getting round it. If you didn't want to PVP, it wouldn't matter how well implemented it was, you probably still wouldn't?
Fair? Or have I missed the point entirely?
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personally, I think the lack of reward is an issue for people not enganging in PvP as well. It is for me anyway.
I really should do something about this signature.
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personally, I think the lack of reward is an issue for people not enganging in PvP as well. It is for me anyway.
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game? 
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personally, I think the lack of reward is an issue for people not enganging in PvP as well. It is for me anyway.
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game?
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Not really. PvP can be fun, but PvE is more fun, and you get rewarded with character progression as well.
I really should do something about this signature.
CoH has PvP? :P
It was fun in the early days, a lot of good time was wastedn in SC. But now it's hard to get into some times. All it takes for me to get [censored] off is to be on the end of the old 1,2 stalker combo and to then get the old joosux trash talk.
I'm not averse to PvP I make a lot of money ransoming people in eve.
But the fact that my favorite toons are basically fodder and can hardly ever compete makes me not want to hit the zones. I also don't want to make a toon which is not much fun in PvE, just to have a chance in PvP.
It (for me) boils down to the fact that a casual pvp session for me would just end in frustration. It's just not accessable enough to be fun (for me).
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personally, I think the lack of reward is an issue for people not enganging in PvP as well. It is for me anyway.
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game?
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Depends how you define fun? PVP is not fun as often as PVE is, for me. You'll experience fun from PVP if you like it. If you don't like it, it ain't fun.
Simple really 
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game?
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I find PvP in Dominions, Chess, Delta Force, Tekken and loads of other games fun. I don't find the PvP in CoH fun. Thus, no reward.
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game?
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I find PvP in Dominions, Chess, Delta Force, Tekken and loads of other games fun. I don't find the PvP in CoH fun. Thus, no reward.
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That's your opinion, not a fact. Doesn't mean just because there is no 'rewards' as such from PvP, that people don't find it fun. Hence why there has been a core majority of players around from the very start till now.
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CoH has PvP? :P
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Not exactly, it depends on the battleground you are using :
- Siren's Call : PvS ( Player vs Stalker )
- Warbug : PvN ( Player vs Nothing )
- Recluse Victory : PvJS ( player vs Jumper-Speeder )
As far as I'm concerned I don't care about PvP in this game, I go to RV to use heavies, pillboxes and to occasionally fight in a 1 vs 1 fight with a non super-jumper-speeder ( rare occurrence I must say ).
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That's your opinion, not a fact. Doesn't mean just because there is no 'rewards' as such from PvP, that people don't find it fun.
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It's a fact that I don't find PvP in CoH fun.
Are there people who play PvP in CoH? Yes, of course. Is PvP in CoH popular? No, not really. Why not? Well, I'm egotistic enough to suspect that the reasons I do not find it fun might also be the reasons why many other players don't seem to find it fun either.
So, yes, on a discussion about the popularity (or lack of such) and reasons for same of CoH's PvP, I do believe it is a relevant point, even though it is certainly based primarily in my subjective experience.
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The reward is FUN! You missing the whole point of playing this game?
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I find PvP in Dominions, Chess, Delta Force, Tekken and loads of other games fun. I don't find the PvP in CoH fun. Thus, no reward.
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That's your opinion, not a fact.
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Sure it's my opinion, never said anthing to indicate otherwise.
This is a fact: If PvP was better rewarded I would PvP more often. I cannot speek for anyone else.
This is also a fact: If there was there where alternative PvP and PvE builds I wouldn't use it (or I would use my PvP build for somthing else such as an AV-killer, rapid travel, or AoE build instead). I can't of course, speek for anyone else.
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Doesn't mean just because there is no 'rewards' as such from PvP, that people don't find it fun.
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I find PvP fun. I just find it not as much fun as PvE.
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Hence why there has been a core majority
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!!! 
I really should do something about this signature.
I enjoyed some of my PvP experiences a lot. Usually the ones where I took friends or fellow Roleplayers in there for a little battle. Memorable was the time my MA/SR faced against Wordmaker's Claws/SR, or when Cindersnap got chased about an arena zone with by a broadsword wielding Arachidamia.
And sneaking about RPing in a PVP zone was fun, with the moment of tenseness when a villain was spotted.
But I really feel that WoW did PVP much better. I actually used Battlegrounds a lot for PVP with my characters. It was fun, could be tense at times, and you were doing it for more than kudos and bragging rights. Honour points and battleground tokens translated to purchasing items that came in handy both in PVP and PVE. *Hugs her Highlander's Leather Boots*
What do we get in PVP Zones? Bounty in Sirens Call, but if you don't have the NPC on your side to buy things due to zone balence shift, then it's pretty much useless.
And that's not even commenting on the balance issues, plus with travel powers and such. Other people know the issues there more than me.
PvP can be fun, I've dipped in from time to time. But the fun is always, always spoiled by the appearance of one or more Stalkers. Ignoring for a second they can rip most non-Tanks in half by flicking a fingernail at them, placate followed by stealth and superspeed means it's virtually impossible to track and take them down unless you're constantly eating yellows on top of an impressive +Perc toggle.
Stalkers make PvP frustrating and pointless for non-Stalker Heroes, either solo or as part of a team. And that is mainly why I do not PvP.
(The following is based on game behaviour a while back and may have changed, but I doubt it.)
IMO, Placate is overpowered. Last time I had Crow in RV, a Stalker wanted to play tag. Now, with FA running, I could see him coming. He got his AS off, but I hit Dull Pain and turned to attack... and he hit Placate. Now, I could still see him, but I couldn't target him, so he ran or flew or something off and there was really nothing much I could do to respond.
If Placate just dropped your attention and reasserted Hide, that would be fair, but it also blocks targetting for several seconds, so having +Perc just means you can see them while they run away.
More recent experience: I took my DB/WP Scrapper into SC to do a patrol and get a nice +Stealth gadget. And, hey, I like to give the sharks a taste of new flesh once in a while.
Walk in the gate, turn on toggles, including IR Goggles. I see a villain. Then I spent about 5 minutes trying to get out of line of sight at the pace of a stoned slug as I got multiply frozen. To be fair, I did find it hilarious that they hit me with every slowing effect they could manage (there was more than one doing it) and still couldn't manage to kill me after all that time in the open.
Anyway, I defrosted and came out again by which time they had found an easier victim, so I bounced off to run the patrol route. About half way around I got nailed by a Stalker (spines, I think). Never saw him, not before or after the attack. If someone would like to explain how that's 'fun,' or 'a challenge,' or in any way 'a show of skill' then go ahead, I'd like a good laugh.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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(The following is based on game behaviour a while back and may have changed, but I doubt it.)
More recent experience: I took my DB/WP Scrapper into SC to do a patrol and get a nice +Stealth gadget. And, hey, I like to give the sharks a taste of new flesh once in a while.
Walk in the gate, turn on toggles, including IR Goggles. I see a villain. Then I spent about 5 minutes trying to get out of line of sight at the pace of a stoned slug as I got multiply frozen. To be fair, I did find it hilarious that they hit me with every slowing effect they could manage (there was more than one doing it) and still couldn't manage to kill me after all that time in the open.
Anyway, I defrosted and came out again by which time they had found an easier victim, so I bounced off to run the patrol route. About half way around I got nailed by a Stalker (spines, I think). Never saw him, not before or after the attack. If someone would like to explain how that's 'fun,' or 'a challenge,' or in any way 'a show of skill' then go ahead, I'd like a good laugh.
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No, that behaviour hasn't changed. And no, such experiences are not 'fun', 'a challenge', or 'a show of skill'.
Effectively, to us non-PvPers out there, it is not possible to PvP if there's a Stalker in the zone because you are DEAD. Pure and simple. Now, the PvPers may tell us to not bother coming into the zone if we're not prepared to face Stalkers... and then moan that there aren't enough players who PvP.
Causality. Look it up.
I love the concept of PvP. I truly do, and I would be happy to do it more than I currently do (pretty much never) if it was possible to go to a PvP zone and expect to be able to stand a chance without going for a completely tricked out PvP build.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.* PVP in MMO's sucks, even EVE and the up comming WAR have nothing on a good FPS like CS or UT, they might have some fun sstem, but for pure PvP that scales from 1 vs 1 to 32 vs 32, FPS will always rule.
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No, that behaviour hasn't changed. And no, such experiences are not 'fun', 'a challenge', or 'a show of skill'.
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The bit you quote happened this week. I'd be amazed if that had changed since ganking lone targets and the CoH equivalent of saplock are going to be used unless there's no way of doing it.
The bit of behaviour that may have changed is the mechanics of Placate.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
As a non PvP'er I think the thing that's put me off so far is the lack of a learning curve. CoX is my first ever MMO and I got into PVE at my own pace. The experience was rewarding (on many levels) right from the beginning and has continued to get more rewarding.
I've dipped my toe into the PVP water a couple of times but as a complete novice (and casual player so therefore not really inclined to spend hours offline researching how to "do it") the experience has consisted solely of:
- enter PvP zone
- see words "Assassin Strike" appear above my head
- go to hospital
- leave PvP zone.
I'd happily spend some time getting into it if there was a way to build in a learning curve. I'm not even sure if that's possible or not but just thought I'd add the perspective of another player who quite likes the idea of PvP but will probably never do it because every experiment so far has been completely unenjoyable.
Drag
Ever wondered how our costumes stay so clean and shiny given everything we put them through?
Then you need to try out Spandex Crisis (Arc ID 32943)
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PVP in MMO's sucks, even EVE and the up comming WAR have nothing on a good FPS like CS or UT, they might have some fun sstem, but for pure PvP that scales from 1 vs 1 to 32 vs 32, FPS will always rule.
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'tis an good point, and the difference is, FPS success is based entirely on player skill.
I really should do something about this signature.
Actually placate is pretty easy to avoid. Hit stalker with DoT and placate does nada.
I do like pvp in heroes. Well to be accurate i like the concept and I enjoy it with certain team set ups.
There are huge problems with it and some of them have been pointed out. I think the first problem to address is getting more ppl into pvp be it zonal or arena.
Big problem that has been mentioned is stalkers and now to a lesser degree Forts. Stalkers are a pure pvp solo build. New players are put off by instant deaths from an unknown assailant.
And from a villains perspective fire/nrg blasters are nearly as bad. Two attack chains will kill practically anything.
This will be a lot of players enduring memory of pvp and will probably never return.
The list goes on of problems with pvp but I think the accesiblity issues should be adressed first.
And beyond the instant death mechanic as has been said repeatedly there is just no incentive for non pvp'rs to enter the zone.
In the 15mnths I have been playing there has been zero attention to pvp. All the zones are flawed and need attention.
And imo cimer is awfull. A TF length arc just to gain entry which u must repeat on every toon. Then you get there for zero content and the lag tf. I would much rather the pvp zones had a revamp than more half baked and badly programmed zones.
Back to the OP, yes as much as I enjoy pvp I must agree that rather than faceplanting pvp never got off the ground.
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just thought I'd add the perspective of another player who quite likes the idea of PvP but will probably never do it because every experiment so far has been completely unenjoyable.
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This is something PvPers don't seem to get, actually. They seem to think getting wiped in two hits is a learning experience. There's lots of comments about learning from getting killed and being better in the future, but PvP combat is frequently too fast and deadly for you to figure out why you're dead. If you don't even know what killed you, how can you get around it. And that's ignoring the Stalker issue.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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I can't believe we're still having this discussion. It's been going on since PvP was put in the game and it's still going on, with exactly the same suggestions and arguments.
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Well, the OP is fairly new, and those problems have been there from the start, and are still there now (largely because they are insoluble, or at least not soluble is a way what wouldn't enrage as many people as it pleased).
Has PvP faceplanted? No, because it has never been alive.
I really should do something about this signature.