Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
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Actually placate is pretty easy to avoid. Hit stalker with DoT and placate does nada.
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Yeah, 'cos Stalkers have absolutely no defense against AoEs and the only DoT a katana Scrapper has is an AoE.
I always love the way that PvPers tend to come out with statements like "oh it's easy to combat tactic X, you just..." ignoring the fact that not everyone can actually do what they are talking about.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Actually placate is pretty easy to avoid. Hit stalker with DoT and placate does nada.
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Yeah, 'cos Stalkers have absolutely no defense against AoEs and the only DoT a katana Scrapper has is an AoE.
I always love the way that PvPers tend to come out with statements like "oh it's easy to combat tactic X, you just..." ignoring the fact that not everyone can actually do what they are talking about.
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Wow maybe you shouldnt pvp. Pretty harsh reaction there.
I was speaking from experience, a lot of times placate does nothing for me.
If you read past the first line of the post you might have noticed I agree with most non pvp'ers complaints about why they dont pvp. I think stalkers are very skewed in implementation and have a huge effect on overall pvp.
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And imo cimer is awfull. A TF length arc just to gain entry which u must repeat on every toon. Then you get there for zero content and the lag tf. I would much rather the pvp zones had a revamp than more half baked and badly programmed zones.
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I was very disappointed that Cimerora didn't have the usual 4 contacts with arcs as per the established Striga/Croatoa/Hollows/Faultline/RWZ pattern (hoping that will be rectified in I13).
Despite that I personally I think the ITF is the best TF in the game, despite the lag on the 3rd mission, and I really enjoy the Midnighter access arc CoV-side. Ironically enough I enjoyed that access arc's boss-heavy missions most on my stalker, who is not so much a "pure pvp solo build" since I respecced him mainly for PvE instead. And that, together with the I12 changes, has made him much more fun for me in PvE, to the point where I'd rather play a stalker than a scrapper now.
So I respectfully disagree with most of your points, just as you would doubtless disagree with my wish that the Devs continue to focus on PvE instead of patching up an ailing PvP playstyle that is never going to be as popular as PvE here, no matter what the few "hardcore" PvPers say.
To me it seems a lack of knowing how to play and the feeling of knowing how to lose...
- I am not a pvp-er and will not build my toon for that. But this is a team based game. If you find an uber pvp build killing everyone... Consider him an arch villain/hero and get a team in. That is what you would do in pve. So why not in pvp.
- Stop moaning about stalkers! It's the same for villains with the blasters. Both heroes and villains have an uber pvp build. A dominator vs. a blaster will stand NO chance at all and will be one-shotted from afar long before even having seen the blaster.
This requeres skill to avoid. The stalker is even easier to avoid then the blaster. Just move around a lot. As AS can't initiate if youre on the move constantly.
- Last, but not least, I am not pvp-ing so much because for my toon advancing there is nothing aside of 2-4 hour wasite of time. Even the kill point list isnt permanent. Otherwise you would be able to make an to all available list of highest kill rates in pvp. The temp powers available isnt a good reason to kill / hunt the other side at all. They just get you in the one. If/when you need you do it at a time you will not be disturbed.
Do something with the kills!
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Stalkers aint hard to get around, just dont stand still, i dont know how many times thats been said.
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To me it seems a lack of knowing how to play and the feeling of knowing how to lose...
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I, and I suspect most of the non-PvPers who participate in these debates, understand how we'd have to play to do well in PvP (Which is not to say we understand all the details or that we're good at it -- just that we know, from attempts and from reading about PvP, the playstyles that are workeable.) The point is: it doesn't appeal to us. We don't like those playstyles, they're no fun.
The reason we don't participate in the marathon isn't that we don't know how to do well (nor because we don't like competition or can't stand defeat) -- it's because we don't like jogging.
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Stalkers aint hard to get around, just dont stand still, i dont know how many times thats been said.
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Have I mentioned how I loathe games that requires ADD movements? If I wanted to run and jump around like a loon, I'd join an athletics team.
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To me it seems a lack of knowing how to play and the feeling of knowing how to lose...
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I think this touches on a very important point. I've known people get very upset when dying in PvP in an MMO. Even ignoring the tendency of immature players to gloat and rub it in when they do win but cuss, moan and cry cheat when they lose, I think a lot of mainly PvE players - RPers most of all - get so attached to their characters that they just don't want to see those characters being defeated and potentially mocked/humbled by others.
Personally it doesn't bother me - anyone who plays FPS games such as Planetside or any of the Battlefield series gets used to "dying" over a dozen times an hour and potentially a lot more, often to completely random occurrences way outside of their control (such as being orbitally bombarded at the moment you respawn from a defeat). On BF2142 it's fairly common for even the highest scorers in a match/round to have been "killed" over 20 times in the 40-ish mins it took to play, depending on the situation - especially in a Camp Gibraltar "meatgrinder" stalemate, for those familiar with the game. As a newbie you're glad when you manage to kill at least one other player before dying 
But I have experienced players getting very angsty over their character being defeated (sometimes by me 
) and it happens a lot more frequently in MMO PvP than FPS PvP from my admittedly skewed personal experience.
Defeat is probably easier to chalk up to the fortunes of war in an FPS, whereas in an MMO it might seem more personal because of your greater attachment to your character because you can customise them more, make more decisions while building them, and have more/greater chances to get in-character (if not necessarily more immersed) than with your FPS tag/handle. Also there tend to be less players around in PvP and less "chaos" so it seems more personal, not to mention the better chat systems in MMOs making it easier for the killer to gloat/mock, leaving the victim more socially exposed.
Also it's easier to feel griefed in MMO PvP than FPS PvP, because in FPS games the entire gameplay revolves around killing your opponents - in MMOs a lot of players get killed in PvP when they were least prepared for it because they were trying to do something else (usually PvE or crafting/harvesting orientated) so it feels like griefing/ganking to them. I've experienced that myself, being repeatedly ganked by higher levels in a newbie zone while trying to PvE in my first experience of free-for-all PvP in EverQuest. While CoH/V isn't anywhere near that bad, some PvE players still feel an entitlement to get nukes, shivans, badges or whatever in PvP zones (wrongly or rightly), so that likely induces a similar feeling of being "ganked" to them.
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Actually placate is pretty easy to avoid. Hit stalker with DoT and placate does nada.
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Yeah, 'cos Stalkers have absolutely no defense against AoEs and the only DoT a katana Scrapper has is an AoE.
I always love the way that PvPers tend to come out with statements like "oh it's easy to combat tactic X, you just..." ignoring the fact that not everyone can actually do what they are talking about.
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Wow maybe you shouldnt pvp. Pretty harsh reaction there.
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I generally don't.
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I was speaking from experience, a lot of times placate does nothing for me.
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That would be because anyone who wants to actively PvP in the game sets themselves up with an AT and sets which are able to do as you say, DoT Stalkers reliably. However, if you don't primarily set out to play the game for PvP and have not picked one of the sets which can do this, then your tactic doesn't work.
Again, we're back to being unable to PvP without the 'right' build.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Have I mentioned how I loathe games that requires ADD movements? If I wanted to run and jump around like a loon, I'd join an athletics team.
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Well thats fine, carry on getting 2 shotted by stalkers.
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This requeres skill to avoid. The stalker is even easier to avoid then the blaster. Just move around a lot. As AS can't initiate if youre on the move constantly.
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Yeah, that's another tactic I've heard which is, in fact, a load of rubbish.
The patrol mission I quoted above, I was stood still for a fraction of a second at each checkpoint and someone AS'd me. See, AS isn't like a Blaster's Snipe attack. If the Stalker can activate it, it goes off, no matter how far away the target gets. A Snipe needs line of sight from the moment it starts to the moment it fires. So moving around a lot actually works against a Blaster, but it's by no means a certain way to stop a Stalker hitting you.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Stalkers aint hard to get around, just dont stand still, i dont know how many times thats been said.
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And it's still rubbish.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Yeah, that's another tactic I've heard which is, in fact, a load of rubbish.
The patrol mission I quoted above, I was stood still for a fraction of a second at each checkpoint and someone AS'd me. See, AS isn't like a Blaster's Snipe attack. If the Stalker can activate it, it goes off, no matter how far away the target gets. A Snipe needs line of sight from the moment it starts to the moment it fires. So moving around a lot actually works against a Blaster, but it's by no means a certain way to stop a Stalker hitting you.
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No its not fool proof but it does cut down the chances of the oft moaned about 2 shot and dead considerably.
It works the same, move out of LoS and the assassins strike will miss...oh but then again i guess if you can't see the stalker your stuffed...but uhm hence them being called stalkers.
One of the leaders of the Harlequins villain group and currently on defiant.
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And it's still rubbish.
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Maybe you just aint cut out for pvp, it works for most people.
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This requeres skill to avoid. The stalker is even easier to avoid then the blaster. Just move around a lot. As AS can't initiate if youre on the move constantly.
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Yeah, that's another tactic I've heard which is, in fact, a load of rubbish.
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Sorry but you are wrong and its not rubbish.Constant movement prevents AS and there is only one way to workaround it and i cannot post it here cause is sort of a bug thing.
Constant movement = no AS thats a fact.
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Stalkers aint hard to get around, just dont stand still, i dont know how many times thats been said.
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And it's still rubbish.
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Ok dont insist on that one cause it really aint rubbish,you are just digging your own hole here 
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Stalkers aint hard to get around, just dont stand still, i dont know how many times thats been said.
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And it's still rubbish.
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Also.. I noticed its damn hard to be hidden these days.. As hide is nerved in all ways. Anyone with a +perception power can see a stalker when he combines it with anything else +perception he can even see invisible. Making AS a complete useless power.
And every pvp hero build will have this.
And how do villains survive uber blasters then? Once fully initiated a sniper attack will always hit.
If you want to pvp... and youre afraid to get ganked by these builds/At's... bring a team that will keep you alive. And stay together! I have seen so many teams that where [censored] in team play the moment they where in a pvp zone...
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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This requeres skill to avoid. The stalker is even easier to avoid then the blaster. Just move around a lot. As AS can't initiate if youre on the move constantly.
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Yeah, that's another tactic I've heard which is, in fact, a load of rubbish.
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Sorry but you are wrong and its not rubbish.Constant movement prevents AS and there is only one way to workaround it and i cannot post it here cause is sort of a bug thing.
Constant movement = no AS thats a fact.
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So, basically, you're telling me that there is an exploit which gets around this, but I'm wrong? Well, duh!
I was constantly moving and I got hit. I have Stalkers, I know how AS works and it's nothing like as hard to use as a Blaster's Snipe.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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And how do villains survive uber blasters then? Once fully initiated a sniper attack will always hit.
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Why that's easy, you just keep moving all the time. As long as you can break line of sight once every few seconds to anywhere on the map (rather like you say can be done with Stalkers) then you should have no problems at all. 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
I don't normally bother to post in PvP threads.
I have been in the zones 3 times in 18 months and each time the same result instant death.
I do take part in base raids because I don't like to see my SG short handed. I guess I have taken part in 5 raids and each one was so one sided it was not fun at all, I found my self watching the timer hoping the hour would soon be up. Four of the raids we won the other we lost.
I did take part in the last defiant FNFC and enjoyed it very much. Because it was A) short duration and B) not at all serious.
But I now find that at 50 plus my reactions are not quick enough, that was the reason I stopped playing Enemy Territory (the original one) I was leader of ZeNClan and we were average win some lose some.
I now like to cheer Supernation from the sideline. I have nothing against PvP but it's not for me now. For those who enjoy it great but remember some of us are no longer up to it (well I'm not anyway )
rereading this I have not added to the discussion at all
Happy to be on Defiant.
Global name @mereman
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Constant movement is all well and good until you want to... y'know, -attack- something, whereupon you get rooted to the spot for the duration of the animation, letting anyone run up to you. You hear their weapon draw, travel suppression ticks off just in time to start running away, but their weapon hits you from 100 yards away, and if they're using Super Speed their travel suppression works off during the animation, letting them zip right after you to hit you with another attack. In the case of Bane Spiders, they have ranged weapons to blast you with as well.
In Team Fortress 2, I don't get rooted in place to make an attack, meaning I don't have to worry that the instant I want to fire a weapon that a Spy is going to put a switch blade between my shoulders. In WoW, I can break off attacks with ease, and on my Rogue use Sprint or Shadowstep to make a quick evacuation. Breaking off attacks or moving while blasting aren't really options. All I have to show up Stalkers are any Yellow Insps in my tray, and if I want to change that I either have to shell out for a +Perception to go in one of my To Hit Buff powers, mess about in a PVP zone getting bounty to buy an IR scanner to find Stalkers to defeat them to let me... uh, mess about in a PVP zone, or get Tactics, which also requires me to get another power from the Leadership pool just to get it.
Do I have to do things like that in WoW? No. Do I have to do things like that in the FPS games I play? No.
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Well thats fine, carry on getting 2 shotted by stalkers.
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Or I can, you know, just avoid PvP in City of Heroes. Like pretty much everybody else.
CoH's PvP is unpopular with most of the playerbase of CoH proper. That's not the fault of CoH's playerbase, but of the PvP implementation -- the latter exists for the former, after all.
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So, basically, you're telling me that there is an exploit which gets around this, but I'm wrong? Well, duh!
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Its not an exploit its a sort of problematic game mechanic or so but it involves tp foe and it still needs a lot of timing.
Basically you are wrong simple as that.Constant movement = no AS
there are only 5 stalkers tops on Union that can do this workaround and they are no casuals or newbies.
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I was constantly moving and I got hit.
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Obviously you have a different perception of moving than cause AS wont fire under constant movement.Roll a stalker and try it.
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Why that's easy, you just keep moving all the time. As long as you can break line of sight once every few seconds to anywhere on the map (rather like you say can be done with Stalkers) then you should have no problems at all.
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Ok to end this discussion between PvP and some situations that dont occur in PvP.Noone uses snipe for the exact reason you can get ASed easily. So no point discussing this unless you slot Snipe with 3 interrupts and move after animation starts and follow target which is doable.
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Constant movement is all well and good until you want to... y'know, -attack- something, whereupon you get rooted to the spot for the duration of the animation, letting anyone run up to you. You hear their weapon draw, travel suppression ticks off just in time to start running away, but their weapon hits you from 100 yards away, and if they're using Super Speed their travel suppression works off during the animation, letting them zip right after you to hit you with another attack.
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Majority of PvPers and regulars use unsupressed movement combo which is the reason they can fire at a constant rate with little rooting.
CJ/SJ/SS/Hurdle = unsupressed movement in PvP.
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PVP in MMO's sucks, even EVE and the up comming WAR have nothing on a good FPS like CS or UT, they might have some fun sstem, but for pure PvP that scales from 1 vs 1 to 32 vs 32, FPS will always rule.
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I think the above comment is a gross generalisation, but I agree with it in spirit. All of my favourite PvP games, from the original Unreal through my sole MMOFPS Planetside and now to the Battlefield games, have been twitch games where there is a playing skill progression for the player, rather/more than a statistical progression for the character.
Maybe that's a subjective opinion, but I primarily buy/play MMOs for PvE not PvP, and simultaneously I'll buy/play an FPS (or occasionally an RTS) mainly for the PvP and not for their tacked-on PvE, because generally that is the main playstyle they are designed for these days. I'd rather play a game that was mostly honed and patched/updated for the playstyle that I picked it for.
CoH/V will never have more than casual PvP because it is mainly a PvE game at core and has to maintain focus on that - the Devs would be daft to alienate their core subscriber base by majorly shifting attention now. For PvE I'd rather have our wide range of varied powers/powersets that are impossible to balance within an archetype, let alone with other archetypes (for both PvE and PvP) - but when I PvP I want less classes and the same progression/abilities available to all.
My current PvP/FPS game is Battlefield 2142 and that has 4 kits ("classes" really - Assault is medic/grunt, Recon is sniper/stealther, Support is ammo/firepower and Engineer is repair/traps/anti-vehicle), each with weapons/gadgets/passives you unlock as you progress in PvP, but you can switch between the 4 kits at will with each respawn (on the same character), develop them how you choose, and none of the unlocks are what I'd call essential (just nice perks). Imho a proper PvP game needs to be structured either like that, or be totally skill-based and not class-based, because it has proved impossible for MMO dev teams to properly balance more than a small handful of base classes (and taking into account all the pri/sec powerset choices as well as archetypes, we effectively have hundreds or even thousands of different classes here).
I would question why a serious PvPer would bother with CoH/V as their main PvP game, unless they were also very interested in the PvE and the superhero theme as well. If you're a serious PvPer and want to PvP in MMOs then surely Guild Wars or other MMOs with PvP reward/competition systems in place (even WoW) would be preferable to here.
Me, I'll stick with FPS games to indulge my "killer" side, while getting my "explorer"/"achiever"/"socialiser" fixes in CoH/V.