Has PvP in CoH seriously faceplanted
By
Alphane,
Posted on: 2008-08-19 21:07 in Everything about PvP
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Nope but they require players skills, "real" one.
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And theres the rub!! 
Skill is sadly of much lower importance over actual alt type.
I personally like PVP (looking forward to Warhammer);
I have been a hard core battle field player all versions and the Desert Combat mod for it as well and loved it all.
COX PVP however is not so skill based I feel but more alt based and as such unbalanced on a one too one bases.
For example In most other PVP games if a chap jumps into a tank and kills you, you have the option to respawn as anti tank man and blast his sorry tank to kingdom come, if he jumps into a plane you can jump into an anti aircraft gun and have at him, he spawns as a heavy infantry you can jump in a tank
. Do you see the pattern?
You can in effect change your build depending on the alt you wish to attack on the fly so to speak in COX its locked solid into what ever build you have at that moment
COX is more like Rock, Scissors, Stone than skill If there was an option to have a PVP slanted build and a PVE build with the PVP build being able to respect repeatable then I might be tempted back in and try again, but the main problem for me when PVP was first shoved into the game was a complete lack of viable builds on any of the alts I was running at the time.
I went through more respecs trying to get something that was half way PVP decent but gave up as I ran out of respecs and was fed up with the situation and a gimped PVE build.
Yes I had fun in the PVP zones when there was a larger and I do stress that larger team organised where the alts can work in a PVE way with buffers, de-buffers etc but as soon as the teams shrink so does the fun element at least for me.
If the alts were more like there original inception I feel personally that PVP would work better.
If I play a Blaster and shoot a tank I want to see a dam good drop on his hit points, on the flip side the blaster should be able to be taken down with a mere waft of a hand as the blaster should be squishy so its a hit and run tactic involved so skill starts to creep in.
I dont think my blaster ever had a one shot kill against any alt ever in PVP and that was in the good old days with 6 slot damage
ah happy days.
There has been too much equalisation of alts making them all very similar in some respects due mostly to player requests and exploitations of plays being stopped,
Personally I miss seeing a fire tank sweeping a map and having a huge mob around them slowly dropping like flys 
As PVP has been a bit of a half hearted addition then yes its not as polished as it could have been, I am pretty certain that some players after reading this tread absolutely love the current PVP and good luck to them I say.
I wish I could join in but cant be bothered anymore myself, as for people bemoaning entering a PVP zone for a badge I must say once you enter the area your fair game for the other side, if its marked PVP and you enter then youre a target its as simple as that.
If you want what the zone has to offer you then you have to accept the fact the zone will be more hostile than normal, if you find it an issue try doing your thing late at night on a weekend chances are no one else will be there then
but you never know 
Anyway that my 2 inf worth for what its worth.
/salute
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]Anyway, I see that we don't "understand" the word "hardcore" the same way. For me doing something a lot isn't enough to label it as hardcore activity.
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The guy who set off this argument does have a point in a weird way. PvP just isnt really accessable realistically to a casual player in a sense that it is long term fun to them.
And, because most of the posts I've read are pretty (ive only skimmed) advanced, we're not offering solutions to make PvP more accessable on a basic level, therefore creating more PvPers, some of who will graduate to the advanced levels some posters here are at.
What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
since FReedom phalanx comes to RV cant Vindicators(mynx,swan,luminary and others) come to SC when heroes get control. And when villains are in control LR´s crews merry sidekicks would come?
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PS : I find your last sentence tactless.
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I find you bringing in the real life army into a discussion about PvP on a computer -game- tactless.
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Hi,
I realize it. I made a mistake.
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What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
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Couldn't agree more.
Tainted Greek's posts (several pages back) about some techniques to avoid insta-death are the first thing that I've seen that started to unlock some of the principles that, frankly, I probably wouldn't have worked out for myself.
Maybe it's something that can't ever be solved by a game mechanic and can only be solved by having players like TG impart knowledge to players like me?
Ever wondered how our costumes stay so clean and shiny given everything we put them through?
Then you need to try out Spandex Crisis (Arc ID 32943)
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Comments like "just move forward!" and so on are just dumb imo. Why not just go "Cool, you don't like pvp, i can understand that".
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Because had i answered "Cool, you don't like pvp, i can understand that" it would have made no sense in answer to the post i was replying to.
Please read the thread rather than picking 3 words out, doing THAT is just dumb imo.
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]Anyway, I see that we don't "understand" the word "hardcore" the same way. For me doing something a lot isn't enough to label it as hardcore activity.
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The guy who set off this argument does have a point in a weird way. PvP just isnt really accessable realistically to a casual player in a sense that it is long term fun to them.
And, because most of the posts I've read are pretty (ive only skimmed) advanced, we're not offering solutions to make PvP more accessable on a basic level, therefore creating more PvPers, some of who will graduate to the advanced levels some posters here are at.
What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
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Hi,
I don't think that there is a "real" solution to the lack of interest in PvP in CoX. It is a side activity of the game ( IMO ) with no repercution for either side.
As an example, when I was playing Daoc in the early days of the game, I was motivated by the RvR aspect because it had a sense, I fought for my realm, I fought for a tangible goal ( the relic keeps which gave your realm a bonus or opened a "PvP" dungeon for the faction with the most keeps ).
As others posters said, there is no reward ( with an impact on your character or faction ) in CoX PvP but this is not necessary a flaw ( it made CoX PvP less stressfull IMO ).
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What will make more casual players buy into and enjoy the PvP aspect of the game has to be the key question.
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I never thought I'd say this... I agree with Lionsbane.
As it stands at this moment in time, PvP is not in any way friendly to anyone who wants to try it casually. Some of this is PvPers. Some of this is the implementation of PvP in the game. But at the end of the day, if you go to a PvP zone with an attitude of "I'll just see what it's like", you are unlikely to choose to do it again.
I'm busy trying to persuade my wife to try PvP. I want to try and persuade some of my RP friends to head to a PvP zone and try our hand, as a team, at it. I think it would be fun. But we're all PvP newbies. I doubt we would expect to survive for long, no matter what toons we take along. The fun of this game for me is surviving against the odds. The odds don't get any more heavily weighted to the opposition anywhere other than hardcore PvPers vs Newbie PvPers. But there's a difference between surviving against the odds and not having any chance of survival at all, and that's how it feels to me.
A suggestion then, to make PvP more accessible: Apply a buff players in PvP zones dependent on their Rep. The lower the Rep, the higher the buff. Now, I don't know a lot about how the Rep system works, but I know the game tracks it. Since there's a badge for 400 Rep, set it so that the buff only applies to those with Rep of 200 or lower, incrementally in ranges of 10 Rep, to provide a +Perc, +Acc, +Dam bonus. Nothing to defence or resistance, because those are Powerset specific - if you're squishy, you stay squishy, but you're still buffed in ways that count. As your Rep increases you are obviously (I assume) becoming more skilled at PvP, so the benefits you gain from being a newbie slowly drop away.
There we go - something that if done right won't overpower newbies, but will make them less easy targets, and if you're not a TARGET, you're more likely to keep trying.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Anyway, I see that we don't "understand" the word "hardcore" the same way. For me doing something a lot isn't enough to label it as hardcore activity.
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Here is a bit of enlightenment courtesy of an English dictionary.
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hard core
n.
1. The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization: the hard core of the separatist movement.
2. An intractable core or nucleus of a society, especially one that is stubbornly resistant to improvement or change.
3. often hard·core (härdkôr, -kr) A form of exceptionally harsh punk rock.
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I think definition 1. is the one that we are interested in.
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Thank you.
As far as I am concerned, when it comes to PvP I would add "extreme" in the #1 definition.
Most of the time when I read message boards about PvP, the "hardcore" ( not all of them of course ) usually find no penalty games "carebear" ( example : no full body loot => carebear, instant respawn at the nearest camp => carebear, consensual PvP => carebear ).
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A suggestion then, to make PvP more accessible: Apply a buff players in PvP zones dependent on their Rep. The lower the Rep, the higher the buff. Now, I don't know a lot about how the Rep system works, but I know the game tracks it. Since there's a badge for 400 Rep, set it so that the buff only applies to those with Rep of 200 or lower, incrementally in ranges of 10 Rep, to provide a +Perc, +Acc, +Dam bonus. Nothing to defence or resistance, because those are Powerset specific - if you're squishy, you stay squishy, but you're still buffed in ways that count. As your Rep increases you are obviously (I assume) becoming more skilled at PvP, so the benefits you gain from being a newbie slowly drop away.
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Would have to stop the rep total going down as it does at the moment, or you would be in a position where experienced pvp'ers who just aint played a char for a while were getting buffed.
I like that idea though.
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A suggestion then, to make PvP more accessible: Apply a buff players in PvP zones dependent on their Rep. The lower the Rep, the higher the buff. Now, I don't know a lot about how the Rep system works, but I know the game tracks it. Since there's a badge for 400 Rep, set it so that the buff only applies to those with Rep of 200 or lower, incrementally in ranges of 10 Rep, to provide a +Perc, +Acc, +Dam bonus. Nothing to defence or resistance, because those are Powerset specific - if you're squishy, you stay squishy, but you're still buffed in ways that count. As your Rep increases you are obviously (I assume) becoming more skilled at PvP, so the benefits you gain from being a newbie slowly drop away.
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Loving this.
You could even make the degree of buff zone-specific as well so that us PvP newb's know in advance that if we go into a certain zone we're completely on our own. That would then make it our choice as to when we step off the learning curve!
Brilliant!
Ever wondered how our costumes stay so clean and shiny given everything we put them through?
Then you need to try out Spandex Crisis (Arc ID 32943)
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So, it's a bug?
[/ QUOTE ]Yes. When you get into the range where your client loads the character, they'll appear for a moment before the server tells you they're stealthed.
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Thanks, Max. It's nice to know someone is honest.
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Sorry mate but doubleyouteaef really.You consider me dishonest because MaX actually proclaimed this to be a bug?
Because this sure aint a bug.Its the way game works its a game mechanic this is something that cannot be changed fixed or whatever and its been discussed to death on US forums afaik.
Calling me dishonest because MaX decided to call this a bug is at least a bit meh.I even offered to show you how it works,offered you a bunch of tactics to help you with stalkers that all of them are tried and tested and the best you can do is call me dishonest because someone else decided this is a bug?Petition it and lets see it getting fixed.
To make PvP appeal to a large portion of the playerbase, I think, as a minimum, the following needs to be done:
Team structured -- PvP needs to be restructured to be centered, and not only balanced, around teams. There needs to be team tasks, victory conditions for teams, and mechanisms in place to pit teams against teams.
Nuanced stealth -- The stealth system needs to be expanded and made more nuanced. Terrain, conditions, movement, power use and other should affect stealth (both adding and subtracting.) Staying hidden should require some amount of skill (and be, to some degree, counterable by skilled opponents), but the payout should be better.
Suppress travelpowers -- Travel powers should either be suppressed entirely in PvP zones (although that would require a complete redesign of the zones) or they should carry significant disadvantages to use. Penalties to stealth, accuracy, resistances and recharge, lingering for a few seconds after they've been used. It should be almost, but not quite, impossible to use them effectively in actual combat -- mostly they should be used as a way to get to the combat, then be turned off.
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A suggestion then, to make PvP more accessible: Apply a buff players in PvP zones dependent on their Rep. The lower the Rep, the higher the buff. Now, I don't know a lot about how the Rep system works, but I know the game tracks it. Since there's a badge for 400 Rep, set it so that the buff only applies to those with Rep of 200 or lower, incrementally in ranges of 10 Rep, to provide a +Perc, +Acc, +Dam bonus. Nothing to defence or resistance, because those are Powerset specific - if you're squishy, you stay squishy, but you're still buffed in ways that count. As your Rep increases you are obviously (I assume) becoming more skilled at PvP, so the benefits you gain from being a newbie slowly drop away.
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This is a great suggestion in my opinion but there is a fundamental problem with it cause it has been proposed in past once more.
It goes against the whole MMO gaming experience where as you progress in game you get rewarded
The more experience you got the less powerful you are is kinda weird 
However i wouldnt mind seeing how it would work in action first.
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Because this sure aint a bug.Its the way game works its a game mechanic this is something that cannot be changed fixed or whatever and its been discussed to death on US forums afaik.
[/ QUOTE ]It's an unintended (and most likely unfixable) side-effect of adding PvP to an engine that wasn't designed for it. I'd certainly define that as a bug, but it doesn't really matter what you call it. And yes, I'm well aware that it's not going to get fixed.
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Team structured -- PvP needs to be restructured to be centered, and not only balanced, around teams. There needs to be team tasks, victory conditions for teams, and mechanisms in place to pit teams against teams.
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I like this and i agree 100% A battlearena similar to WoW mechanism would be awsome in my opinion.
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Nuanced stealth -- The stealth system needs to be expanded and made more nuanced. Terrain, conditions, movement, power use and other should affect stealth (both adding and subtracting.) Staying hidden should require some amount of skill (and be, to some degree, counterable by skilled opponents), but the payout should be better.
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I like this also and makes some sense to me at least.For a game that mobility is so huge stealth shouldnt be so powerful.
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Suppress travelpowers -- Travel powers should either be suppressed entirely in PvP zones (although that would require a complete redesign of the zones) or they should carry significant disadvantages to use. Penalties to stealth, accuracy, resistances and recharge, lingering for a few seconds after they've been used. It should be almost, but not quite, impossible to use them effectively in actual combat -- mostly they should be used as a way to get to the combat, then be turned off.
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This i am totally against.Travelpowers are one of the best things that this game PvP has to offer.Chasing people with superjump and superspeed and so on is something special and unique to this game wouldnt like to see it changed.
What definitely needs to change tho is the approach some of the AT's got in regards to PvP and superspeed and i am talking all melee classes.I am tired of posting this but melee classes lack powers that close distances between people with travel powers and some unresisted effects like other games that give chance to use attacks.Rush blows,knockbacks,cripples,snares etc.Give all melee AT's (except stalkers) a power similar to glue arrow that can be negated only by a kinetic and i am happy imho will make melee very viable in pvp zones.
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This is a great suggestion in my opinion but there is a fundamental problem with it cause it has been proposed in past once more.
It goes against the whole MMO gaming experience where as you progress in game you get rewarded
The more experience you got the less powerful you are is kinda weird
However i wouldnt mind seeing how it would work in action first.
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No argument from me that it's counter-intuitive, TG. Just thought of a corrolary to this that would shift the balance in favour of trying to get your Rep high:
Assume the above system is in place. Then, once your Rep is at the 200 mark (or the 'Buff Cap' or whatever we want to call it) PvP kills have a probability of a recipe drop. If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops', as long as it's built right should give people a reason to maintain a high Rep.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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This is a great suggestion in my opinion but there is a fundamental problem with it cause it has been proposed in past once more.
It goes against the whole MMO gaming experience where as you progress in game you get rewarded
The more experience you got the less powerful you are is kinda weird
However i wouldnt mind seeing how it would work in action first.
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No argument from me that it's counter-intuitive, TG. Just thought of a corrolary to this that would shift the balance in favour of trying to get your Rep high:
Assume the above system is in place. Then, once your Rep is at the 200 mark (or the 'Buff Cap' or whatever we want to call it) PvP kills have a probability of a recipe drop. If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops', as long as it's built right should give people a reason to maintain a high Rep.
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Thats different then.I wouldnt mind that.Would make it easy to autobalance zones and would give reason to maintain high rep.Sounds good to me really 
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If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops'
[/ QUOTE ]No, just no.
I have nothing against PvP giving you already existing recipes, but PvP-only drops should never be implemented in this game.
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Suppress travelpowers -- Travel powers should either be suppressed entirely in PvP zones (although that would require a complete redesign of the zones) or they should carry significant disadvantages to use. Penalties to stealth, accuracy, resistances and recharge, lingering for a few seconds after they've been used. It should be almost, but not quite, impossible to use them effectively in actual combat -- mostly they should be used as a way to get to the combat, then be turned off.
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I agree on this idea.
It is the one thing that annoy me the most in my casual PvP, the chase.
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Give all melee AT's (except stalkers) a power similar to glue arrow that can be negated only by a kinetic and i am happy imho will make melee very viable in pvp zones.
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How about giving Scrappers and Brutes a short-range aura that toggle-drops their current target's travel power? That still leave Tankers, but I think something else has to be done to make tankers viable anyway.
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This is a great suggestion in my opinion but there is a fundamental problem with it cause it has been proposed in past once more.
It goes against the whole MMO gaming experience where as you progress in game you get rewarded
The more experience you got the less powerful you are is kinda weird
However i wouldnt mind seeing how it would work in action first.
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No argument from me that it's counter-intuitive, TG. Just thought of a corrolary to this that would shift the balance in favour of trying to get your Rep high:
Assume the above system is in place. Then, once your Rep is at the 200 mark (or the 'Buff Cap' or whatever we want to call it) PvP kills have a probability of a recipe drop. If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops', as long as it's built right should give people a reason to maintain a high Rep.
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Hate to be a negative nancy but that would kill PVP for good, all it would become is a 'You farm me today, I farm you tomorrow' system.
If you make the death Rep drop too harsh no one new will go into PVP even with a system like that.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If a new pool of recipes is made for 'PvP drops'
[/ QUOTE ]No, just no.
I have nothing against PvP giving you already existing recipes, but PvP-only drops should never be implemented in this game.
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Wasn't suggesting 'PvP only' drops, MaX. Just a new pool into which existing recipes can be added that results in drops from causing PvP kills. It could (theoretically) include recipes that are currently in all the other pools (Trial, TF, Mission, etc).
Edit: As CB has said, though, it risks PvP farming. So the question that then springs to mind is this: How do we stop that?
First thought that springs to mind is to only have drops from people who also have a Rep of 200 or more. Or a Rep that's no less than a number of points below your own (I don't know the current Rep system - can someone briefly run through how Rep changes for me? I'm working on the fly here, but I think this idea has merit).
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Give all melee AT's (except stalkers) a power similar to glue arrow that can be negated only by a kinetic and i am happy imho will make melee very viable in pvp zones.
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How about giving Scrappers and Brutes a short-range aura that toggle-drops their current target's travel power? That still leave Tankers, but I think something else has to be done to make tankers viable anyway.
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Well toggle dropping the travel power is no big deal because most pvpers got hurdle slotted making it hard to keep them in place even when all travel powers drop.
A power that creates an unresisted effect like knockdown or snare would be perfect in my opinion and from what i experienced with melee classes in other mmo's. Especially knockdown would allow at least 3 hits and if you consider you could drop stuns and holds that some melee powers have as secondary effects would rock.Hell would even make hold/stun procs worth it in melee toons.
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Anyway, I see that we don't "understand" the word "hardcore" the same way. For me doing something a lot isn't enough to label it as hardcore activity.
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Here is a bit of enlightenment courtesy of an English dictionary.
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hard core
n.
1. The most dedicated, unfailingly loyal faction of a group or organization: the hard core of the separatist movement.
2. An intractable core or nucleus of a society, especially one that is stubbornly resistant to improvement or change.
3. often hard·core (härdkôr, -kr) A form of exceptionally harsh punk rock.
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I think definition 1. is the one that we are interested in.
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