'Twixt'? Anyone remember this guy?
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-07-06 16:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I wanna make money by griefing people, too! 
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Fansy being a griefing legend is only because what he did was a good while ago and didn't happen to us.
Twixt being a griefing villain is only because it happened recently and we play the same game. Plus he wrote a paper on it.
Drama is funnier when it isn't happening to you.
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Exempli gratia, the EVE drama thread.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
Also: who'd have thought the day would come when the forums would leap to the defence of PvP on any topic?
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Fansy being a griefing legend is only because what he did was a good while ago and didn't happen to us.
Twixt being a griefing villain is only because it happened recently and we play the same game. Plus he wrote a paper on it.
Drama is funnier when it isn't happening to you.
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Fansy > Twixt by all measures.
Better concept, better execution, better documentation, better end result.
Well, ok, Twixt does earn points for convincing someone to pay him for griefing. that's a good trick.
But aside from that, Fansy dwarfs his accomplishments in every way.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
If anything Twixt says is remotely true, it shows how sad the PvP arena is - people only willing to fight eachother under previously agreed upon terms - a gentleman's shake - apprently over react when they can't win.
Thats IF what twixt said is true.
Maybe it's because I spent some time as a game developer and customer support person for an MMO, but I fail to see anything epic or legendary about either Fansy or Twixt.
The old "low level character who can't be attacked" exploit is much older than Everquest. See also "verbal harrassment in sanctuary zones" and "looming over corpse of defeated player in order to steal loot for self." Related topics are "substituting object for something with similar graphics/name" (e.g. in a text-based world, dropping a "teleportation gate" outside of the "city gate" so that new players teleport to a zone filled with high level monsters) and "name flaming," in which a player creates an avatar with a similar look, name, and appearance to another player and intentionally provokes trouble.
Seriously, if you've seen one of these players you've seen them all. They vary in their modus operandi but one thing they all do is insist they are playing "within the rules." I wish I had a dollar for every person who told me to "show them in the rules where [x] isn't allowed" while I was placing them on 30 day lockout.
These players are also fond of claiming to have "developer support" and often speculate openly about the intended purpose of a power/location/vendor/object. Their argument is usually that because the game makes them capable of doing something, its permissible to do it. It will probably not surprise anyone here to learn that often developers don't anticipate the way everything they create will be used. Sometimes, upon realizing that game mechanics are not working as intended, changes are made to the game.
With Twixt specifically, his "academic" paper states that PvP zones were intended to be used a certain way because that's the way they were coded. I've never spoken to the developers of this game, but I have no doubt this elicits a giant eye roll.
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If anything Twixt says is remotely true, it shows how sad the PvP arena is - people only willing to fight eachother under previously agreed upon terms - a gentleman's shake - apprently over react when they can't win.
Thats IF what twixt said is true.
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That's sad?!!
My favorite part of this study is that, the professor had to actively instigate the aggression, because in his own words, the players when left to their own devices, were insufficiently aggressive, and instead stood around chatting amicably.
Only farmers and fightclubbers would stand around chatting.
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If anything Twixt says is remotely true, it shows how sad the PvP arena is - people only willing to fight eachother under previously agreed upon terms - a gentleman's shake - apprently over react when they can't win.
Thats IF what twixt said is true.
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It's not quite like that, it's just that Twixt's actions are generally viewed as dishonorable. You see, a more useful and interesting study would have been about these unwritten rules that players create and how they differ from game to game and culture to culture.
Here in the US and Europe, playing "honorably" is a big deal. We generally discourage the use of bugged or overpowered methods in favor of a more balanced playing field. We frown upon farming and exploiting. We like a good fight to be had by all, and we want to be able to respect the person we lost to.
In games with a microtransaction system allowing you to purchase gear, this takes on further meaning. We generally feel that the best items should be earned by playing the game (IE- purchasable only with the in-game currency) rather than bought with real money. We feel that those who pay real money should not have an advantage over those who don't.
Put simply: Chivalry is not dead, it's merely in online games.
Contrast this with other parts of the world. Asia's (China and Korea specifically, I don't know how Japan does it) view on the items discussed in the last paragraph differ wildly from ours. They generally have no qualms about giving the best stuff to those who paid the most real money. They also seem to have no objection to getting ahead in any way possible, being it through exploit, farm, or other methods we generally frown upon.
If you explore different parts of the world, you will find that each has its own unwritten rules. That's not to say there's a 100% conformity with them in their respective regions, but there is definitely a general consensus.
In games that span multiple regions, you can definitely see the differing systems of values clash with each other. It's very interesting.
Ugh...I have been looking at some of the comments on other sites and all of them are along the lines of "wow, CoH must have some really mean people in it, no way I am playing it now!"
This whole thing just makes me sad. Not angry, just sad 
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Put simply: Chivalry is not dead, it's merely in online games.
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wow...what planet are you from?
this is possibly the most hilariously wrong thing I've ever seen posted on a forum.
And I used to connect to my local BBS using 1200 baud modem, so that covers a LOT of real estate!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Ugh...I have been looking at some of the comments on other sites and all of them are along the lines of "wow, CoH must have some really mean people in it, no way I am playing it now!"
This whole thing just makes me sad. Not angry, just sad
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sad for gullible idiots?
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A PhD friend of mine (who plays the game, although he doesn't PvP) mocks his own Ivy league degree by saying it stands for Piled Higher & Deeper.
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I'd be very surprised if your friend made that up. It's a very old joke:
What's BS stand for? Bull Sh..
What's MS stand for? More Sh..
...and then comes the Ph. D.
Like a Runaway Train!
SS's Crey Profile
SS's Virtue Handbook Page
Liberty League: Leave the Justice to Us!
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Drama is funnier when it isn't happening to you.
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There is no denying this 100% true statement. But c'mon, Fansy is funny:
[Thu Jul 05 00:19:35 2001] Vehementer tells you [Fansy], 'nice a** hole'
[Thu Jul 05 00:19:46 2001] You told Vehementer, 'Thanks! I'm a virgin'
[Thu Jul 05 00:20:45 2001] Vehementer tells you, 'you're a f***ing idiot'
[Thu Jul 05 00:20:59 2001] You told Vehementer, 'such language!'
[Thu Jul 05 00:21:09 2001] Vehementer tells you, 'such idiocy'
[Thu Jul 05 00:21:11 2001] You told Vehementer, 'Were you the enchanter? Which one were you?'
[Thu Jul 05 00:21:21 2001] Vehementer tells you, 'I'm your worst nightmere'
[Thu Jul 05 00:21:29 2001] You told Vehementer, 'OK RAMBO'
LOL! PWNED.
/ignore Fansy:
[Sun Jul 08 18:03:28 2001] [Fansy] shouts, 'Giants love the good guys! Hooray!'
[Sun Jul 08 18:03:44 2001] Makes tells you, 'that was real cute, a**hole'
[Sun Jul 08 18:04:03 2001] You told Makes, 'Thank you!'
[Sun Jul 08 18:04:30 2001] Makes tells you, 'welcome to ignore'
[Sun Jul 08 18:04:45 2001] You told Makes, 'one time a friend ignored me for 2 days'
[Sun Jul 08 18:05:00 2001] You told Makes, 'it was some serious cold-shouldering'
[Sun Jul 08 18:06:10 2001] You told Makes, 'I was so bothered by it, whenever I called his house and he hung up I would just keep talking prteending he was there'
[Sun Jul 08 18:06:17 2001] You told Makes, 'until the BEEP BEEP BEEP sound anyway'
[Sun Jul 08 18:06:50 2001] You told Makes, 'You know Makes, I feel like I could tell you anything'
....ROTFL!! This guy was, in his own twisted way, almost brilliant. Talk about an agent provocateur...
Something like this can be funny as long as the same person is not in the zone every day, doing the exact same crap. That's when people start hauling out the "I'll hunt you down" threats and meaning it, and that's going too far IMO. Unfortunately we have no chatlogs of Twixt and so are unable to judge the true level of his provocation skills. Fansy had verbal PvP down to a science.
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It's not quite like that, it's just that Twixt's actions are generally viewed as dishonorable. You see, a more useful and interesting study would have been about these unwritten rules that players create and how they differ from game to game and culture to culture.
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This is probably the only thing I agree with in this entire post
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Here in the US and Europe, playing "honorably" is a big deal. We generally discourage the use of bugged or overpowered methods in favor of a more balanced playing field. We frown upon farming and exploiting. We like a good fight to be had by all, and we want to be able to respect the person we lost to.
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The only reason we favor a balanced system is because, if the bug/exploit is not to our advantage, we are at a disadvantage (shocking, I know). Simply put, we don't want to feel like we are at a disadvantage because of things that are out of our control. However, we would welcome with open arms advantages that allow us to 'skip steps' and would make things easier on us. Say a bug allows for a significant benefit to the Paladin class (just to avoid a CoH analogy). The Paladins aren't going to complain about it, though everyone else will. The only real exception to this is if the person knows the exploit/whatever is so far above the norm that they will be caught if they use it or that the 'fix' is near at hand (just because I'm aware of it, the current PvP Dom numbers come to mind). It's the reason why ToS agreements have disclaimers like 'don't use exploits or you might get punished' in them...because otherwise players would and there would be nothing the devs could say or do about until a fix comes.
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In games with a microtransaction system allowing you to purchase gear, this takes on further meaning. We generally feel that the best items should be earned by playing the game (IE- purchasable only with the in-game currency) rather than bought with real money. We feel that those who pay real money should not have an advantage over those who don't.
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That is debatable at best. There are a lot of proponents out there of the microtransaction system. Some people even prefer it to the Pay2Play systems like CoH. It's how the system impacts the game that matters...again, people who feel like they can get away with 'skipping steps' will do so without a second thought.
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Put simply: Chivalry is not dead, it's merely in online games.
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What Nethergoat said.
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Contrast this with other parts of the world. Asia's (China and Korea specifically, I don't know how Japan does it) view on the items discussed in the last paragraph differ wildly from ours. They generally have no qualms about giving the best stuff to those who paid the most real money. They also seem to have no objection to getting ahead in any way possible, being it through exploit, farm, or other methods we generally frown upon.
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You mention farm in you post...and I point you to the entire drama surrounding AE. CoH is largely based in North America and, to a lesser extent, Europe and Australia (I think?). There is also a small presence of legitimate Asian players, but no where near the number of NA, EU, and Australian players.
I wasn't playing when I14 was released...but I was following the threads and I must say...it was epic (and it was what kept me from getting too bored for about a week). Stating that Asians are the ones who prefer to participate in these kinds of activities while NA and EU players are chivalrous is not only wrong but edges into stereotype and possibly more.
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If you explore different parts of the world, you will find that each has its own unwritten rules. That's not to say there's a 100% conformity with them in their respective regions, but there is definitely a general consensus.
In games that span multiple regions, you can definitely see the differing systems of values clash with each other. It's very interesting.
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This is true...to an extent. Without much background in cross-cultural studies I can't say much about this. However, within these cultural rules there are also universal rules. There are very very few cultures out there that engage in incest for example, it's called the incest taboo (I would use a different example, but this always the one that sticks with me for some reason). I'm sure that it would be interesting and informative to see how hiding behind an avatar that masks gender/race/culture/etc could change these unwritten rules, but that isn't the issue at hand since he didn't account for this condition and assumed it didn't exist (since he never menitoned it in any context).
the only thing that really bothered me is that some idiots had to go and threaten him. way to stand up and be counted guys, can there ever be a community that isnt that blinkerdly stupid as to be lead down that route?
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the only thing that really bothered me is that some idiots had to go and threaten him. way to stand up and be counted guys, can there ever be a community that isnt that blinkerdly stupid as to be lead down that route?
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You expect that a community of 150,000 would accomodate a guy who went out of his way to harass others, and then trash talked them in an attempt to get a sexy response for his paper, and not have at least 1 person make an obviously faux comment like that? I think you should take it as admirable that his trolling was not more effective.
I read the whole essay and it sounds borderline legitimate if you take him at his word. Then I read here how he combined it with verbal harassment, cherry picked his data, complained when PVP was changed so he couldn't do it as effectively, and made obvious references to that EQ bard (go go good team, poems). Obviously what we have here is a wannabe Fansy who got his kicks by harassing, then quit and wrote an unflattering article after he got dealt with.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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You expect that a community of 150,000 would accomodate a guy who went out of his way to harass others
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Here lies one of the fundamental problem with most of you here. Please write down exactly what PvP methods Twixt used to "harass" people in the game that would be considered against the game zone mechanics or rules. Anybody?
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then trash talked them in an attempt to get a sexy response for his paper
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Here is the second fundamental problem. The majority of the time after Twixt would attack or TP someone into critters or drones, the players on the recieving end would complain in broadcast then Twixt would respond. Yes Twixt would use broadcast PvP as a method but many of you are making it sound like others were merely innocent, respectful and honorable players who ran around saying GF, GG and nothing else.
I have a few more things to add but I'll hold off until I get some responses to these areas.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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then trash talked them in an attempt to get a sexy response for his paper
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Here is the second fundemental problem. The majority of the time after Twixt would attack or TP someone into critters or drones, the players on the recieving end would complain in broadcast then Twixt would respond. Yes Twixt would use broadcast PvP as a method but many of you are making it sound like others were merely innocent, respectful and honorable players who ran around saying GF, GG and nothing else.
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If this was supposed to be research, he wouldn't deviate from his methods regardless of what other people said in broadcast.
His stated method for examining the response of players to breaching the social norms in RV was to simply "play the zone game as intended". Meaning that all he was interested in doing was capturing the pillboxes using whatever means necessary that were legal in-game.
If he had done that and only that, then maybe it would have a leg to stand on as research. But he muddled his own data by responding to people's comments. (Or do you believe it is impossible for a impartial researcher to not respond to negative comments?)
Now what is it that you can say people were responding to? Was it just that he was playing the game by the rules and they got mad? Or did some of them get mad only after he replied to their complaints?
You see, you can't have it both ways here. Either your study uses one pure method that can't be open to interpretation, or you start responding to disparging comments in-kind and you make your study not just about violating social-norms, but possibly also about how people respond to taunting, which is an entirely subjective thing. (You pretend that it is required to respond to players not saying "GF or GG", it is not, and especially if you are trying to keep your research method clear of any questionable results. If getting a good academic result was the purpose, then you would think having the self-control to not respond to other players taunts would be extremely easy. To respond with taunts is pretty much admitting that it had nothing to do with actual research.)
And finally, the conclusion he is trying to support is that the enforced social norms actually limit the types of gameplay, but there seems to be scant evidence provided other than his personal experience, and absolutely no attempt to explore where social behaviors that have developed in-game have led to more options for gameplay rather than less.
His methods are poor science, his conclusions are unsupported and his willingness to defend them on their merits seems limited to arguing with people who disagree while never providing additional evidence or claims that back up his point.
In that context, it is hard to read this as anything other than emo-nerd-ragequit, dressed up as an academic finding.
(since you demanded answers, I'll expect that you answer every question I've posed here, otherwise it would seem you can't keep to your own standards either.)
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You expect that a community of 150,000 would accomodate a guy who went out of his way to harass others
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Here lies one of the fundamental problem with most of you here. Please write down exactly what PvP methods Twixt used to "harass" people in the game. Anybody?
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The definition of the word harass:
1. to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.
2. to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or hostilities; harry; raid.
Torment:
1. to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain.
2. to worry or annoy excessively.
3. to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.
Twixt's kill-logs show that he killed the same people time after time after time. Taken alone, that's part of PvP. However, charge those victims with threatening him (and claims that it was unprovoked besides through gameplay, leaving out the fact that he would verbally attack and harass these people as well), and the component that he leaves out becomes the definition of harassment. He focused on individuals, bother them continuously, pestered them, attacked them repeatedly in a hostile setting, and annoyed them excessively. Simply put, everything that he leaves out of his "research" constitutes harassment. By definition.
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then trash talked them in an attempt to get a sexy response for his paper
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Here is the second fundemental problem. The majority of the time after Twixt would attack or TP someone into critters or drones, the players on the recieving end would complain in broadcast then Twixt would respond. Yes Twixt would use broadcast PvP as a method but many of you are making it sound like others were merely innocent, respectful and honorable players who ran around saying GF, GG and nothing else.
I have a few more things to add but I'll hold off until I get some responses to these areas.
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People have pointed out that those who responded in such a manner were definitely in the wrong. However, not everyone responded that way. The vast majority of people didn't respond that way. They appear to have fallen through the cracks in Twixt's "research". There's no mention of them. No numbers about how often he received death threats and how often he received perfectly civil messages. No actual data to back up his presentation of the community. Simply his word. Unfortunately, since he misrepresented what took place to minimize his culpability, why would anyone believe his word after that? His chat logs are not comprehensive, otherwise they would include the harassing he did, which would instantly discount his "evidence" because he was personally goading his "victims" by attacking them verbally. Unless he presents all the data that goes along with research, he is misrepresenting his findings and demonizing a community based on nothing more than anecdotes.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
Uniquedragon could have written a better paper than this guy.
Never heard of him.
Being a purposefully obnoxious player while feigning innocence in the small niche community of CoX lolpvp? Please. Fansy the Famous Bard and the Flowers of Happiness would've run circles around Professor Noob. They brought old EQ's FFA pvp server to its knees. Pretty sure they conducted some semi-epic trolling in WoW, too, but less memorable just because WoW is watered down weaksauce where nobody can *really* be ub3r like select individuals could become in the old days. Casuals don't know 'bout how Giants once walked the Earth.
And then they turned into carebears, I think. Or perhaps they became buddhas and transcended the mortal coil.
-edit: Except Leeroy Jenkins. Best thing to come out of warcraft.
A thread on this guy in every server forum and here, he's loving this.
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What he was doing technically falls under Section 6, Subsection D, item 9.
It's split up, so I'll give you the text in sentence form.
"You agree not to use the service to stalk or otherwise harass another member."
What he was doing qualifies as harassment. Especially if I'm reading a few of the chat/kill logs right.
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Foolish man. Nothing is harassment in the name of SCIENCE!
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All I have to add is this little gem...
"Back off, buddy. I'm a scientist."
The Elementals - Brother Frost and Sister Flame
Who Is Sister Flame?
Arc 118690 - Sibling Rivalry (Sister Flame) Tweaked 09/15/09
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Fansy being a griefing legend is only because what he did was a good while ago and didn't happen to us.
Twixt being a griefing villain is only because it happened recently and we play the same game. Plus he wrote a paper on it.
Drama is funnier when it isn't happening to you.