so once again we're at square 1 w/ mixed results?
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Just a couple months ago I had a customer ask if they should load a particular patch to one of their systems. My answer was nope. Then last month they ran into a problem, and I recommended they load the very same patch. They asked me why I didn't recommend the patch earlier, and the answer was simple: that patch has side effects that made it not worth it back then, but with the appearance of the new problem (which was not directly mentioned in the patch, but turns out to be resolved by it) the patch now became worth it, in spite of those side effects (which I subsequently had to resolve after patching).
It would be easy to characterize decision-making like this as either confused or inconsistent, but its actually precisely what happens with any complex system when proper risk analysis is performed. These decisions are almost never simple binary decisions, and they are almost always subject to modification when new information changes the equation.
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Of course, in that case, the user had a bit more control over the decision. This is what I find increasingly frustrating. I'm not sold that the problems are worse than the fix.
Engineering projects, particularly the kind that involve computers, often require trade-offs, and different ways of looking at the problem (the AI in the context of MMOs discussion is a good example of that). Sometimes the solution is to outright defer the solution.
We need to keep in mind this is a game, and ultimately, players enjoyment (and continued subscriptions) are the goal.
--
Mu
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Or seemingly lack there of...
~ Jonathan
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Will the end cost or damage be altered on LS?
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Not that I've heard.
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The issue with SOE and SWG is, the NGE came out right after the Trials of Obi-Wan, invalidating TOW. That would be like having a superbooster that gave us bonuses for 6-slotting the same kind of SO enhancement (Damage, etc), say 6 Damage getting you a set bonus equal to a single SO Accuracy enhancement, the month or so before ED.
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Rather like the people who right now are watching their very expensive Soulbound Allegiance and other rare IOs be turned into junk investments.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Any feedback on my last post Mr DJ? Looking for any clarification for my Imps, if possible.
Edit: Guess not. Would have been nice if you had followed up your first reply with something more substantial. Your comment really came off as a knee-jerk reaction imo. Thus, I tried to explain my view more thoroughly.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
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Rather like the people who right now are watching their very expensive Soulbound Allegiance and other rare IOs be turned into junk investments.
[/ QUOTE ]Post Deleted by Moderator_08
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Just to be fair here. If the use has gone down such that folks are removing the enhancements from their slots, doesn't it also follow that their market value has diminished?
Let's Dance!
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I also have a question regarding the purple pet set (soulbound allegiance) which was [color= yellow]designed specifically to increase the pet's rate of fire[/color].
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On what are you basing this assumption?
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Just to be fair here. If the use has gone down such that folks are removing the enhancements from their slots, doesn't it also follow that their market value has diminished?
[/ QUOTE ]It's still fake money...and those IOs are still of use to many others that don't care about this issue, or aren't affected negatively by this issue.
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Just to be fair here. If the use has gone down such that folks are removing the enhancements from their slots, doesn't it also follow that their market value has diminished?
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To that specific person but we have no idea how much they paid (if any, could have been a drop) and what sets they have slotted.
For all we know this person was impatient and bought them at a high price to make sure they snagged the IO ASAP.
Too many variables.
You know, I'm amused. I understand your reasoning. I might not agree with the, well, basically nerf to those powers - Voltaic Sentinel and Gun Drone are considered not worth the end and time to constantly summon them. You feel they're too powerful, you prolly have better evidence then I'll ever have that they are. It's something else.
You bash this bug... and yet, you encourage us to use it.
What am I talking about?
[Mind Link]*. The power which everybody slots with Def/Rech's because normal Rech don't go in... and it's claimed to be working as intended.**
*The fact it shouldn't ever be made available to Night Widows is another matter entirely.
**Which isnt' to say it should be made recharge-immune. I hate the Jekkyl-Hyde gameplay (you either fight spawns too easy or too hard for one of those forms) nonperma defensive powers like IH provides.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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Kudos Castle. Do what you've gotta do.
This will only affect the recharge of the pets attacks/powers correct? Not the recharge of the characters powers that summon the pets.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
[/ QUOTE ]But the ability for pets to inherrent hasten wasnt working as intended? I dont get that because we were specifically encouraged to use that for psuedo pets. How is it all of a sudden not working as intended?
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Castle,
I am worried about my Fire Imps. I checked the Info tab on the power and Imps ONLY have Brawl. If this does affect Fire Imps, do you plan on giving them another power so they benefit from the cycling as this fix is intended to provide? Or do you believe Fire is still too powerful because of Kinetics?
How about adding an Immobilize to the Imps or a small version of Burn?
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Super-overpowered-farming-build-go!
Brawl is already a fast recharging attack. Fire/kin and fire/rad were both AV soloing builds before IO's and sets came along. They'll go back to being only mildly overpowered.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Castle,
I am worried about my Fire Imps. I checked the Info tab on the power and Imps ONLY have Brawl. If this does affect Fire Imps, do you plan on giving them another power so they benefit from the cycling as this fix is intended to provide? Or do you believe Fire is still too powerful because of Kinetics?
How about adding an Immobilize to the Imps or a small version of Burn?
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Super-overpowered-farming-build-go!
Brawl is already a fast recharging attack. Fire/kin and fire/rad were both AV soloing builds before IO's and sets came along. They'll go back to being only mildly overpowered.
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Errrm no they won't. They will still being doing what they are doing.
Fire Imps is the least of what allows them to be able to do what they do, including soloing AVs if they could before.
If this nerfbuff was targeted at them. It failed.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I just logged my Electric/Energy main on to test and Voltaic Sentinel says in the power info Electric Bolt fires every 1.57 seconds.
I think it's supposed to fire every 3 seconds.
Now it says (level 50 now) 87 damage per shot after Soulbound's slotting. If it got a 70 percent damage boost... 118 a shot... and I wouldn't mind that. I use VS to drop runners and I hate it when the Bolt hits minions and they have a point or two left.
This will end up being a slight nerf... but one I can live with (unless they boost old sparky with a second attack or something... come on Ball Lighting/Short Circuit!).
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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Fine. I guess all has been said then. LS will stay nerfed and we will wait a buff that might never happen ever since it is "judged" overpowered.
This would not be the first time that i abandon characters and move to something else. I just find it amusing that it is one of my character that i thought was not especially powerful that got the nerf bat this time. So, i will just go play with my scrappers and VEATS, quite happy of the good fortune i have in the end.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Meanwhile, we have a long standing 'bug' that we cannot fix:
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That says it ALL right there.
I don't even play PET classes and this still disgusts me. I'm through accepting THAT answer for all the things wrong with this game, Castle.
Sorry as hell, but I'm sick of it.
Cal2
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The bug is the whole SYSTEM.
There have been quite a few things affected by limitations of the current architecture. Just to list a few:
<ul type="square">[*]Taunt auras unable to slot Taunt IOs: implemented because of a "bug that cannot be fixed." Feature is taken away from players.[*]Peacebringer Photon Seekers' reduced damage and increased radius: implemented because of a "nasty bug that cannot be fixed" (exact words here). Damage possibilities are taken away from players.[*]Last change to costume detoggling process: implemented because cast times are tied to animations (system limitation). Playability (working with binds, macros and trays reliably) is taken away from players.[*]Self-heal powers like Reconstruction don't benefit from Heal IO set bonuses because Heal's "strength" is shared with powers that increase damage and resistance (or something like it). Feature (of having self-heals benefiting from heal IO set bonuses) is denied to players.[/list]
And now we have this new "bug that cannot be fixed", which takes away the ability of players to slow most of enemy pets' recharge rates. I understand the devs' vision of taking recharge enhancing away from pets, but taking away the "debuffing" nature of this effect (recharge) is an equally nasty side effect, which does not compensate for the fact that LS and other recharge-enhanceable powers were so "broken," as Castle said the change is aimed to fix.
That said, I don't believe LS is going to get a compensating buff, ever. If the initial intention was to all pets to not inherit recharge bonuses, they are not getting changed to "compensate" for anything. It was still an error from the game designers to allow such thing for so long, and it really surprises me that they only knew about it *now*. Powers like LS, Fire Imps and such were always enhanceable with recharge and whenever it happened, the Combat Numbers window would report enhanced recharge rates for all pet powers. I do not believe the devs haven't noticed THAT, in all seriousness.
This change is not affecting me much because my two Storm characters haven't got LS yet, and I'm not annoyed by the fact that they'll perform poorer compared to the current Live build, but what irritates me is exactly how this whole SYSTEM is so limited that these "fixes" are becoming annoyingly common these days.
My only hope? CoH 2, so the current design/architecture (and all the limitations it has) can go away, and the devs can use their creativity better. Until that, we're going to have to deal with those "fixes".
[ QUOTE ][*]Self-heal powers like Reconstruction don't benefit from Heal IO set bonuses because Heal's "strength" is shared with powers that increase damage and resistance (or something like it). Feature (of having self-heals benefiting from heal IO set bonuses) is denied to players.
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Clarification:
It's for heals that also have enhanceable Resistance in them. Those powers must ignore "outside buffs", or Damage buffs would increase the Resistance you get from them.
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And now we have this new "bug that cannot be fixed", which takes away the ability of players to slow most of enemy pets' recharge rates.
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For PvE at least, this is something the devs have the ability to mitigate.
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It was still an error from the game designers to allow such thing for so long, and it really surprises me that they only knew about it *now*. Powers like LS, Fire Imps and such were always enhanceable with recharge and whenever it happened, the Combat Numbers window would report enhanced recharge rates for all pet powers. I do not believe the devs haven't noticed THAT, in all seriousness.
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While you could always slot powers like Lightning Storm and Fire Imps with Recharge enhancements, that Recharge did not carry over to the attacks belonging to the summoned pets. That situation did not occur until i9 (in some cases) or i11 (in other cases), when you were able to "sneak Recharge through" using set enhancements (that were not technically "Recharge enhancements") with Recharge in them.
The information in the Combat Numbers window is generally reliable (if you know how to read it), but when you're looking at reported Recharge rates you're actually using a "Power Info" window, and those are unfortunately not always reliable, especially when it comes to things like Recharge. Just look at the reported Recharge for a power, activate Hasten, and see if the number changes (it does not). On the flip-side, look at a pet power slotted with regular Recharge enhancements, and see if the reported Recharge rate changes when you change that slotting. It does, but the *actual* Recharge rate does not. Basically, the Power Info for pet powers always gives false positives for Recharge slotting, so it's not in itself a way to notice that slotted Recharge has in some cases been carried over to pet powers.
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But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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I figured that from the beginning, BUT I have to ask this:
Okay, it's clear that "sneaking in Recharge" causes balance problems because it widens the gap between the SOs that the game is supposedly balanced around, and min-maxed IO builds. So, preventing the sneaking in of Recharge, may be quite appropriate in order to balance the powers properly. HOWEVER:
1) Gun Drone has a really large Endurance cost, is interruptible, and takes a very long while to set down, which makes is a between-combat power only. At least Recharge is useful for it because it's not permanent. Would you consider lowering its End cost to about 30, and making it a faster summons and hopefully not interruptible?
2) VS does not benefit from Recharge now since it's perma out of the box. End cost and animation time seems reasonable. Would you consider shortening its lifespan to about 45 seconds, and speeding up its fire rate so that it does the same damage over its lifetime? That way slotting up Recharge in it makes a bit of sense, right now since it doesn't stack, that's wasted slotting.
3) Lightning Storm is on a pretty long recharge, and supposedly balanced around doing close to its full damage, yet its fire rate is too slow to make it worth the End cost in anything but a boss/AV fight. Would you be willing to lower its End cost by about 20% so that it's not a waste to summon it for other fights, and also to give it an "alpha strike" capability by giving it a 1-use Chain Induction attack when its first summoned? That way its overall long-term DPS will hardly be affected, but it will become more useful when summoned for a single small fight.
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So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.
You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.
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I'd be happy if my Bruiser and Grave Knights would go into freaking melee w/out forcing them w/ macros.
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if they fix yours, I want bots fixed. but since that would be beneficial to players it wont happen.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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Fine. I guess all has been said then. LS will stay nerfed and we will wait a buff that might never happen ever since it is "judged" overpowered.
This would not be the first time that i abandon characters and move to something else. I just find it amusing that it is one of my character that i thought was not especially powerful that got the nerf bat this time. So, i will just go play with my scrappers and VEATS, quite happy of the good fortune i have in the end.
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You can store yours next to my em tank. Once a toon becomes unfun, it isnt worth even logging them on.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.
You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.
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I'd be happy if my Bruiser and Grave Knights would go into freaking melee w/out forcing them w/ macros.
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if they fix yours, I want bots fixed. but since that would be beneficial to players it wont happen.
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I don't see anything wrong with bot-*trips over seeker drone*
:P
As for the thread at hand, this changes some of the plans I had for my Fire/Storm troller that's currently at 34. But, at 34, she's still great fun and devastatingly effective, so there's no way she'll wind up mothballed over this change. The only other character I have with pets is my Bots/FF, who I slotted with Blood Mandate for the defense bonuses (so no recharge buffs on them). It sucks for those who invested heavily in recharge for their pets, and I hope it works out for the best in the long run.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
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The information in the Combat Numbers window is generally reliable (if you know how to read it), but when you're looking at reported Recharge rates you're actually using a "Power Info" window, and those are unfortunately not always reliable, especially when it comes to things like Recharge. Just look at the reported Recharge for a power, activate Hasten, and see if the number changes (it does not). On the flip-side, [u]look at a pet power slotted with regular Recharge enhancements, and see if the reported Recharge rate changes when you change that slotting. It does, but the *actual* Recharge rate does not.[u] Basically, the Power Info for pet powers always gives false positives for Recharge slotting, so it's not in itself a way to notice that slotted Recharge has in some cases been carried over to pet powers.
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Yeah, when I slot common recharge enhancements on my Fire Imps, the Combat Window would report enhanced recharge rates for their one power. I never noticed if they were attacking faster or not, though, but wasn't it the case for LS as well? Or LS bolts were not affected by recharge slotting but only by the player's global recharge bonuses (including Hasten)? Given recharge enhancements (IOs or not) were "enhancing" (in Combat Window numbers) Fire Imps' attack rate, one would figure it would enhance LS bolts' recharge as well, which could lead to the assumption that recharge being carried over to pet powers was, in a general sense, "working as intended," and hence they could invest their bazillions of inf on slotting for recharge. The only exception would be MM pets, which powers, by design, do not accept recharge slotting, except through one purple set.
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Reports from a friend with ninjas and another with a necro claim that both of their toons are performing better with what you call a nerf.
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Really? Reports I've been reading say Fly Trap and Jounin are still not cycling their attacks correctly on test.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."