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So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.
You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.
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In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.
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You say that like it matters. It doesn't. "Game-breaking" means its definitely not allowed. "Not game-breaking" means nothing.
Proving something in the game is not game breaking is comparable to proving it doesn't cause acne.
On the subject of what is and is not intuitive, I generally stay away from the subject in general, but one of the things I find most non-intuitive is that pets often use a higher damage scale than their casters, which means a low damage archetype is effectively allowed to summon the use of powers that operate beyond their damage scale.
The "intuitive" bomb does not discriminate targets. It should be considered the nuclear option and left in its silos.
[/ QUOTE ]Post Deleted by Moderator_08
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How many of you are there at the moment?
Well, however many of you there are, I don't mind continuing to remind all of you that your statements are irrelevant. Even if its not a need of any of yours, I'm more than happy to do it anyway.
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But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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In other words you weren't trying to help those with problems with the Bruiser or Stony getting stuck just tossing rocks. You were targetting everyone else and just happened to fix their problem?
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Actually, what Castle is saying is that there was already a problem on the table - recharge being passed to pets unintentionally - when a separate problem came along that happened to propose a solution that also addressed the pet recharge problem.
Its often the case that problem X has a solution A that doesn't appear to be worth the effort, then another problem Y comes along that also has solution A, and suddenly solution A is killing two birds with one stone and becomes much more attractive to perform.
Just a couple months ago I had a customer ask if they should load a particular patch to one of their systems. My answer was nope. Then last month they ran into a problem, and I recommended they load the very same patch. They asked me why I didn't recommend the patch earlier, and the answer was simple: that patch has side effects that made it not worth it back then, but with the appearance of the new problem (which was not directly mentioned in the patch, but turns out to be resolved by it) the patch now became worth it, in spite of those side effects (which I subsequently had to resolve after patching).
It would be easy to characterize decision-making like this as either confused or inconsistent, but its actually precisely what happens with any complex system when proper risk analysis is performed. These decisions are almost never simple binary decisions, and they are almost always subject to modification when new information changes the equation.
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Hurrah for Fuzzy Logic 
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There has been a lot of discussion regarding this Patch Note:
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Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
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I wanted to take some time to more fully explain the change and the reasons behind it.
The CopyCreatorMods (or Pet Inheritance) code was originally written so that things like hitting "Build Up" then casting "Burn" would cause the Burn to do more damage. To my knowledge, most pet powers were set to only accept Damage, Accuracy and/or Status Effect mods. Recharge time was never specifically allowed for pet powers. This happened in Issue 7.
Meanwhile, we have a long standing 'bug' that we cannot fix: Say you have a Damage power that for whatever reason doesn't allow Endurance Reduction. If you slot an enhancement (say, a Hammi-O) which does both, both effects are applied to the power, despite the fact that the power is not supposed to accept Endurance Reduction. We pretty much have let that become "by design" since it cannot be fixed.
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
We tried a few alternatives, which essentially ended up making RIP IO's broken for several months in a variety of ways. One day, while discussing this, another programmer who was looking at AI issues came over and began talking to me about the fact that one of the issues causing aberrant AI behavior was the powers recharging too quickly. Again, we tried some things, but ultimately, the change that is on the Training Room now ended up being the only viable fix. The alternative, as I understand it, would be to fix that long standing bug I said we couldnt fix. That would result in up to a 50% increase in server CPU time in the Powers computations, though and that simply isn't a workable solution.
So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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I hate to say this and sound like a complete jerk, then why change it..... The player base appreantly has never seem to notice it and like it the way it is currently running. Why change it now. This seems almost as bad as the first pet nerf saying "oh we never meant for people to have multiple pets out at once" dispite the very last patch update before the nerf they made earths pets recharge more inline with the rest of the pets out there.
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So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.
You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.
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I'd be happy if my Bruiser and Grave Knights would go into freaking melee w/out forcing them w/ macros.
Can Pain Dom MM's have Enforce Morale replaced with another power? Since the major adavantage of the power is now useless to a MM's minions?
Enforced Morale, Pain Domination Set. Corrs & MMs.
Ally + Resist(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immob, Fear, Confuse). +Perception +Recharge +Speed. Minor Special Damage
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In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.
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You say that like it matters. It doesn't. "Game-breaking" means its definitely not allowed. "Not game-breaking" means nothing.
Proving something in the game is not game breaking is comparable to proving it doesn't cause acne.
On the subject of what is and is not intuitive, I generally stay away from the subject in general, but one of the things I find most non-intuitive is that pets often use a higher damage scale than their casters, which means a low damage archetype is effectively allowed to summon the use of powers that operate beyond their damage scale.
The "intuitive" bomb does not discriminate targets. It should be considered the nuclear option and left in its silos.
[/ QUOTE ]Post Deleted by Moderator_08
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Please don't comments like this either.
So far you've declared what the Devs have and have not thought. Arcanaville can prove most of what she says. Because most of what she says has been fairly well researched.
I get the feeling you're angry, so take some time to consider what you say before you post. Cursing, demeaning, yelling at people. Most especially the Devs and people trying to be constructive here.
This is just kind of general advice. But, avoid making posts that describe people's thoughts or intentions unless they have been outright told to you. It's very difficult to guess what's going on in someone's mind. And when you're angry, it's easy to assume malicious intent or incompetence. But the odds really are against that.
If you try to think of what could be their reasons for doing X, assume they're telling the truth. And only listen to the exact wording, rather then try to assume anything extra about it.
Remember to look at things from a Developer point of view. Long term, very slow. Most of them are pretty smart people. They understand acceptable loss. And have shown that they are willing to do painful things now, for pay off later. And they ARE human beings. They don't like being insulted anymore then you or me.
So... maybe I wondered off topic. But, I see a lot of people using faulty logic on forums. Try not to frame the Dev's side into something. It would be better to confront the Devs on what they've already said, rather then what we assume they're thinking. If you actually assume the best, outside of the concrete, you'll be in a better position to tackle things.
And you'll have a better chance to have a meaningful two-way conversation
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Can Pain Dom MM's have Enforce Morale replaced with another power? Since the major adavantage of the power is now useless to a MM's minions?
Enforced Morale, Pain Domination Set. Corrs & MMs.
Ally + Resist(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immob, Fear, Confuse). +Perception +Recharge +Speed. Minor Special Damage
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because one aspect isn't as useful doesn't undermine the 8 other things it does...so no they don't need to change it. A 5% recharge is hardly major.
QR
Well, my two cents on this are that I hope pet powers are reviewed to see if they're doing as well as they should after this.
As a user of Gun Turret, I find it... surprising that it was even mentioned with this recharge stuff. It takes SO long to recharge and so long to set up, that I have a hard time justifying it as a part of my Arch/Dev Blaster's build. That's at least one pet power that needs some tweaking to be more viable.
The good thing about this is that it normalizes recharge for pets, so those powers can be adjusted accordingly in an effective manner (as well as their AI). That's a good thing... I just hope that it's done, and in a timely manner.
*added*
I'm with DJ on that one. Enforced Morale has a TON of things it helps with, and that recharge will help any teammates you have as well. A bit silly to want a change to that power because of this recharge change.
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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended.
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I can admit that when Lightning Storm was allowed to inherit recharge bonuses, the effect of IO sets increasing the zap rate wasnt known. But the developers definitely listed in the changes the fact that these powers inherited these things. So saying they were never meant to have recharge altered cannot be accurate. That was a SELLING point of the issue it came out in.
Now, if you want to say that IO sets affecting it wasnt accounted for then fine.
I wish that at least Hasten still affected Lightning Storm's zap rate. How about a small buff to the damage or the attack rate?
Lewis
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this was what I thought too, I just feel like I am the only one remembering these things, so it is nice to see I'm not the only one. At least hiker found the dev post that supports what I say in my sig, but again I seem to be the only one that even cares.
It is almost like this (coh and castle) is some sort of religion and no one dares question even though the leader one day says you should worship pine cones as the messiah and the next day says they are the devil.
I remember the issue where buffs transfered over to LS as well and I also recall it being a "feature". It is pretty obvious though that IO's are causing things to be rebalanced and revisited, which was only inevitable despite reassurance that IO's wouldn't be treated that way when possible.
all well.
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I'm with DJ on that one. Enforced Morale has a TON of things it helps with, and that recharge will help any teammates you have as well. A bit silly to want a change to that power because of this recharge change.
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Funny thing about +recharge... before this change I would have thought Kinetics to be a so-so set for Masterminds at best, because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets - I would have wanted it more for SB and ID than anything. After the change? No thanks, Controllers/Defenders/Corruptors can keep it.
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I can understand Castle's view that +recharge from set IOs boosting the attack rate of singularity or LS was not expected or is not desired.
What bothers me more about this change is that external buffs on the caster or on the buffable pets will also not affect recharge. This isn't something that just affects the much-maligned fire/kin controllers -- anyone who uses any of the affected pets and teams with a kinetics or radiation character, or uses hasten, or who frankenslotted IOs will see lower performance.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
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So, thats the background. There is no other solution that we are currently able to implement at this time.
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You could implement the status quo. Somehow we've gotten by for almost five years now with the players being pretty happy with it. Now it's a crisis demanding a change? Not just a change but a detrimental change.
You're not improving the game with this change. If you need some constructive ideas to fill your time with, every single AT forum on these boards has lists of things that really are broken and can be addressed without nerfs. How about knocking that stuff out instead of throwing yet another "it's for your own good even though it's detrimental" spin job at us.
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I'd be happy if my Bruiser and Grave Knights would go into freaking melee w/out forcing them w/ macros.
[/ QUOTE ]I tried out my thugs/mm once this change went on Test - overall I was very happy. It seemed like the Bruiser was acting a whole lot more like a human SS brute ([Hurl] followed by running in and punching) instead of ([Hurl]...stand....[Hurl]....stand). He even executed [Foot Stomp] when it came up while he was in a mob.
Before this, the only way I could get him to do anything but stand on the sidelines and [Hurl] was to only [Equip] him and not [Upgrade] him (it's the upgrade that gives him [Hurl]).
AMD Phenom 9950 BE @ 2.6GHz
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I hate to say this and sound like a complete jerk, then why change it..... The player base appreantly has never seem to notice it and like it the way it is currently running. Why change it now. This seems almost as bad as the first pet nerf saying "oh we never meant for people to have multiple pets out at once" dispite the very last patch update before the nerf they made earths pets recharge more inline with the rest of the pets out there.
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Lacking a Dev, I'll attempt to answer for the Devs. I obviously can't know what they're thinking, but in an effort to play Devil's Advocate. Or at least keep a conversation going here, so that we might get something cool out of all this.
I would say the reason they're doing it "Now" is because they're just getting around to it. It doesn't really matter what the players think is going on. That sounds mean, but the players are selfish. They will tear into any open wound on this game and rip it apart, given the chance. Any game, really. It's just the nature of people.
The first nerf is just as valid. They really didn't expect people to do that with Pets. They expected people to slot more then just 6 Rech ENH. But this is old ground, been covered a lot.
It seems it goes like this...
- Make thing
- Give thing to players
- Watch players find holes in thing
- Try to fill holes
Right?
The thing is, every time they make something, they're also making 12 other things. And preparing to make even more "other things." So they end up juggling all of these steps at one time. If they stop making new things, then players will leave. If they stop giving things to players, they will leave. If they-- well players will always find the holes. But if they stop filling the holes, that is to say stop fixing bugs. Players will leave.
But they only have so many team members. SO. What do you do first? Which step takes priority? What about which thing? They might have known about this thing for a while now, but not had the time/man power to pull off a fix. Or not had any idea what to fix, how to fix it. It's easy to spot a cough. It's harder to know WHY they're coughing and what's causing that.
If we assume they're not lying. Then they have known about this for a long time, many months. And seemed like they were just gonna leave it alone. Because they had no solution. UNTIL one appeared that fixed it and several other things. It's still not what they want.
But, and again speaking only as a player. This change is awfully painful. And they don't like it. But even the Devs know that this change wasn't really "needed." Much like the first big pet nerf. It wasn't causing server instability or anything.
So why did they make the first nerf?
To set a baseline. The same reason for ED.
Multiple pets, 6-slotting, etc. They were like... chaos in a complex machine. The drunk loud guy at the party or the one kid who likes to knock down blocks and sandcastles. They make it difficult to establish order and rules. Now, I know we're all for being free and putting down "The Man" with his rules. AND the point of the game is to have fun, right? So, doesn't letting people do what they want to have fun... you know, fall in line with exactly the Dev's goal?
Well, fun is all good. And that's fine in a simple system that won't change. But MMOs have to change and move forward. The Devs are trying to build a massive sandcastle. But that's not possible if parts keep falling down or supports keep collapsing. And it's not possible if they just let kids keep kicking it over, even if they are having fun doing so.
Of course, we're all for it when the problem is something we all hate. A game crashing bug or a memory leak. But if the problem is something we like, that helps us. Well...
The problem is, it's STILL a flaw in the castle. And you can't very well build on faulty ground. Much less one that keeps collapsing. That's what ED and the Pet change shared in common. They were trying to address faults in the castle. How does this link to the current patch?
Well based on what I've seen. If we're comparing the two Pet Nerfs. Then this nerf is for the same reason, or a close one. To help establish a baseline.
To fix a crack in the foundation. Why? So they can build something else on it.
In game terms, they need the systems to work right before they can add another system that links to it.
I could just be rambling of course and totally off. But I like to talk, so, you know. At least it's something to think about
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I'm with DJ on that one. Enforced Morale has a TON of things it helps with, and that recharge will help any teammates you have as well. A bit silly to want a change to that power because of this recharge change.
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Funny thing about +recharge... before this change I would have thought Kinetics to be a so-so set for Masterminds at best, because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets - I would have wanted it more for SB and ID than anything. After the change? No thanks, Controllers/Defenders/Corruptors can keep it.
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not even fulcrum shift? 
As a long time player of an Ice/Storm controller I'd like to weigh in here with a few thoughts.
Ice/Storm is very dependent on pet damage, especially soloing. Jack Frost and Lightning Storm being the two biggest sources of damage solo. I personally have LS slotted with 6 level 50 Thunderstrikes. This provides decent damage coupled with a slightly increased attack rate. I probably will not notice a lot of difference. Oh, I do not have hasten either.
What disturbs me the most about this change is the way it was presented. I remember the changes to hurricane very vividly. And the changes to multiple instances of a pet summon. And the global yambagging to AoE holds. This has been mishandled the same way.
Would it be possible for us to be given a list of things that are not "working as intended" so we will know what to expect? Is building for perma or near perma Phantom Army the next thing to get nerfed? Or what about perma freezing rain? Is it "working as intended" that I can have Ice Slick out again within a few seconds of it ending?
Are controllers that are built for -control- not supposed to do any damage?
Just level with us. Its amazing how much angst you can head off at the pass with a little candor.
M'Teru couldn't get the job done. So she sent Mot to Astoria. Bad call.
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We need to keep in mind this is a game, and ultimately, players enjoyment (and continued subscriptions) are the goal.
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Since when does your sub mean more than mine?
With the characters I have, and how I play, I only benefit from this. You, apparently, do not. Maybe we will be able to convince the devs of some pet attack recharge buffs, but just because you do not like it all the results, or at least prefer the current live state, doesn't mean everyone will.
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[QR]
It's nice to have a full explanation of why the change was made, but I don't think it's a "fair" change. I'm in agreement with some others that say the change shouldn't be made since we were lead to believe this is how the powers functioned. Since there has been documentation as to the bugs with the RIP IO sets it would have been better to know back then that this would be happening. At least some of the fanbase who based slotting around this "side effect" could fix their builds prior. I personally never noticed the recharge buff on my storm Defender because she doesn't have recharge bonuses. She has had Hasten off and on during her 5yrs of patrol, but I've never noticed an increase in attack speed. The one thing that I noticed and loved was the transfer of Power Boost and Aim. As long as those things work I'm fine. Knowing what I know now I am disappointed that the recharge inherent is being change since I actually have an idea of how to slot her with +Recharge sets ... 
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I referred to this as the GPN, the Global Pet Nerf myself in one of the locked threads.
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GPN V2. GPN V1 was when the ability to summon multiples of the same pet with sufficient recharge was removed for a lot of pet types. (But not all, apparently)
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Which ones? The only one I can think of that might be there would be Warshades, but their pet requires you kill things first, as well. Which is unique.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
In all seriousness if +rech to the point where a pet is attack twice as fast is being considered broken by the devs it is only a matter of time before it is determined that some sets being capable of buffing pet damage by 4x base isn't "WAI"
That sounds bleak, but this recharge nerf is intended to flatten the performance across all sets with pets relative to their brethren. It has other benefits as originally stated and as stated later when more was revealed, but flattening performance is key.
Damage buffing will be next once the devs decide it isn't WAI for certain sets to be doing twice as much damage as others.
Debuffers will follow, but given the complexity will take much longer for them to find a "one size fits all" solution.
Not calling doom as this is all i16 or later stuff I imagine. Of course I could just be a crackpot, but take a long look at all of the recent power rebalancing across the game and honestly ask yourself if you want every toon to be the exact same in performance just with different light effects?
Lightning Storm (et al) were designed and balanced around their base recharge. IOs (and Hasten, for a small part) broke that balance. So they're being reset. They were never designed to do that much damage.
Which, granted, makes them suck more, but that's the point of nerfs, and nobody's going to be happy with less.
What I'm most upset about is the fact that the purple pet sets were lauded as having this as a feature, so people like me spent, literally, hundreds of millions of influence on them, and now that feature is useless, and that money (and time we spent making it) is worthless.
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Would it be possible for us to be given a list of things that are not "working as intended" so we will know what to expect? Is building for perma or near perma Phantom Army the next thing to get nerfed? Or what about perma freezing rain? Is it "working as intended" that I can have Ice Slick out again within a few seconds of it ending?
Are controllers that are built for -control- not supposed to do any damage?
Just level with us. Its amazing how much angst you can head off at the pass with a little candor.
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Even assuming they had a list of powers that aren't WAI they would never release it to us because it would force too much accountability, which I think we can all appreciate as we wouldn't want to have a year long todo list published with thousands of people yapping at you to get to it.
It would be nice to help prevent stealth nerfing and backpedalling, but not realistic.
I wouldn't object to a little better use of the "known issues" section though. And in major changes like this it is nice to have a heads up similar to what has been done with such things as blaster defiance in the past.
Asking for player feedback even with no intention of listening to it (i13 pvp pops into mind) is still easier to swallow than "surprise".
Feeling powerless in the face of change is very unpleasant. I gave into the last few days and went off the deep end. I've seen plenty of others do it too and it is basically because in a sick sense we feel like we are being violated.
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Lightning Storm (et al) were designed and balanced around their base recharge. IOs (and Hasten, for a small part) broke that balance. So they're being reset. They were never designed to do that much damage.
Which, granted, makes them suck more, but that's the point of nerfs, and nobody's going to be happy with less.
What I'm most upset about is the fact that the purple pet sets were lauded as having this as a feature, so people like me spent, literally, hundreds of millions of influence on them, and now that feature is useless, and that money (and time we spent making it) is worthless.
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Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed. That is pretty... well I think more of cox players than the devs do perhaps heh. Or perhaps it was known and never intended right from the get go, but for some reason never made the "known issues" list.
The rest about the SA set I agree with, but my advice is sell them before they tank as the chances of any meaningful compensation being given to the set is slim.
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What disturbs me the most about this change is the way it was presented. I remember the changes to hurricane very vividly. And the changes to multiple instances of a pet summon. And the global yambagging to AoE holds. This has been mishandled the same way.
Would it be possible for us to be given a list of things that are not "working as intended" so we will know what to expect? Is building for perma or near perma Phantom Army the next thing to get nerfed? Or what about perma freezing rain? Is it "working as intended" that I can have Ice Slick out again within a few seconds of it ending?
Are controllers that are built for -control- not supposed to do any damage?
Just level with us. Its amazing how much angst you can head off at the pass with a little candor.
[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you. What really gets me is that 2 MMOs in the same genre are going to be on the market soon, you would think they would be extra nice to their existing customers and not piss them off with stupid changes like this. I havent been this mad about changes since ED. For the first time in 5 years I truely am considering not playing anymore because of this. It just seems like the more you try to personalize a character stuff like this happens. It makes me wonder if we got a second ED in store.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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It seems to me like illusionists really take it up the [censored] on this one. Are you going to lower the recharge time of PA to compensate, since that is our major form of 'control' since our other aspects of control are lacking to other sets?
If you're going to follow through with this, I would suggest that you lower the recharge times of pet summoning to compensate for the fact that we can no longer slot 3 recharges in them.
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um...I think you misread like ever-y-thing