Actually, while many people didn't know how to improve LS, I would respectfully say, most people pick up hasten, and I would imagine, the majority of the time, hasten would be active while they were casting LS, which would give them a baseline for expected performance. And even if they didn't know about it, chances are, alot of people will still gather global recharge for the direct act of getting perma hasten, inadvertantly making LS even more so...
While the general population doesn't know how this may affect their performance yet, they will after it goes live.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Voltaic Sentinel really needs its life-cycle fixed to 4 minutes.
Originally, VS was immobile. (Like Auto-Turret.)
That meant having to resummon it every mob or two, so it was given a low recharge.
That was in the days of multiple pet summonings, so it was given an equally low lifetime to avoid stacking many of them in one spot.
Now that so much has evolved around it, we're left with a pet no different than others, but with a re-summon every minute.
That's annoying. And it's not in line with all the other pets that last 4 minutes.
I've been trying to get some attention to this since VS became available to Corruptors and Dominators. In light of this latest change, maybe it's a good time to fix VS's problems.
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No I mean when you speed boost a pet and it now does nothing but make it run into the next mob and die faster, that will come as a nice surprise to live players.
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Well, therein lies the rub, doesn't it? When you slot a power for recharge, you expect it to effect the power, unless you stop and think about it. When you use a power on a pet, you expect it to effect the pet. But the two are actually the same thing. You can't prevent one without preventing the other.
Preventing players from slotting Recharge is as much a kludge as preventing Recharge from affecting pets. And given that so many ways were found around it, it obviously wasn't even a very effective kludge.
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Which tbh seemed right to me as it cost a lot more end over time than imps and can't move, seemed like how it was supposed to be. I was wrong lol.
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Don't forget that Lightning Storm also has a knockback component, and causes Fear, which Imps do not. Of course, I agree that effect isn't as strong as, say, Tornado, particularly since it is also linked to the slow fire rate of the Lighting Bolt. Still, it's in a Buff/Debuff set, I would expect its effect to be other than just damage. (Although the logic of giving it control effects escapes me...)
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1) recharge from set IOs affecting pet attack rate - This had been publically stated as unintended behavior, but not recently enough and in the clearest way possible.
2) recharge carried over from buffs on the player such as Hasten, SB, AB, AM - perhaps that had been publically stated as unintended behavior (I'm not sure - never saw it myself). It seemed a bit odd to me, but in light of all other in-game oddities it wasn't obviously unintended.
3) recharge placed directly onto targeted pets from outside buffs such as SB, AB, AM...I've never seen that stated as unintended, and in fact this type of buffing always appeared to be 100% intended to me.
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Agreed. I think that last one is why the devs hesitated as long as they did, and why "no one was happy with the decision", in Castle's words. The last one SEEMS correct, at least for true pets, it is a separate entity, and thus buffed separately. It may not be correct for psuedo pets, or at least those that are not targettable, as they should probably fire at whatever rate has been set for them. It's the other buffs from the player that should carry over to the pseudo-pet, but recharge is how often the player fires the "pet", not how often the "pet" fires.
The thought just hit me, that if a player is hit by AM, then summons a pet, then that pet is hit by AM, assuming the pet gets the player's recharge carried over, does that mean the pet now has the equivalent of TWO stacked AMs running on him? The AM also lets the caster summon the pet more often, but if he also passes his recharge buff to the pet, that means the damage is not just exponetial, it's cubic. (Actually, it's more like 2xAM^2, which is still squared)
Needless to say, it probably never got that bad (LS probably could inherit AM from the caster, but could not be buffed by it directly) but maybe trying to preserve 3) was a mistake. You still do get the advantage of more frequent summoning, except with Masterminds. And the AI was probably designed around foes, not pets and henchmen, so the devs didn't even bother to find out how recharge would effect it.
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No, true pets like an imp if that is what you are talking about didn't carry over caster buffs.
Pets like LS if that is what you are talking about just carry over the buffs the caster has at the time. If you had one AM on you the LS would summon with 20%more rech and 25% more damage (think that is the AM #'s). It wouldn't start stacking AM's from nowhere. If the buff expires on the caster while LS is still active then the buff drops from LS. This is why assault has no effect on LS, it ticks too often and why global IO rech only buffed it for about 10 sec.
None of the pets could self stack powers to the point the universe would colapse 
. Nothing beyond the example you give of some pets double benefiting from rech in that they attack faster and you can summon them faster provided of course you can stack that pet, which for LS you can, but for VS you can't.
Based on my experience with a reasonably random sampling of player characters in pick up groups, I have not observed hasten to be very commonly used.
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None of the pets could self stack powers to the point the universe would colapse . Nothing beyond the example you give of some pets double benefiting from rech in that they attack faster and you can summon them faster provided of course you can stack that pet, which for LS you can, but for VS you can't.
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In other words, for the three situations described above, 2) is for pseudo-pets, and 3) is for "real" pets. Either one or the other could apply, but not both.
1) was the exploit the devs were trying to fix, 2) was questionable, 3) was acceptable. Any fix had to effect all three, though, there was no way to separate them.
It's amusing that the name of this thread is "Recharge Inheritance Change", as that clearly refers to 2) and not 3). The ability to inherit recharge from the parent wasn't what was changed, though. I would actually like to know why it has to be all or nothing, why does inheriting damage and accuracy automatically include inheriting recharge? Is that a coding error, or something that can't be coded?
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It's amusing that the name of this thread is "Recharge Inheritance Change"
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It can mean the inheritance by the pet's own powers of the recharge slotted in the parent summoning power, as well as inheritance of buffs on the caster by pets.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
This is going to be a cynical post; consider yourself forewarned.
So, pets would "lock" on one power over and over. For clarification, was this a problem that made them too powerful? Under-powered? Was it wasting CPU cycles? Was it really just because of the repetitive power usage?
How will this "fix" change gameplay? Reduce my efficiency? Increase it, because I now get a whole other power effect I never saw before? It sounds awfully like a nerf.
So... what's stopping you from buffing the power back to some semblance of it's pre-change level? Who could you irritate by doing this? All the people that complained on the boards about it being too powerful? I.e., nobody. Who would you please? Everyone who has the power. Hmm.
background:
I've been waiting for a fire control or storm summoning nerf for 4 or 5 months now, ever since I decided to start loading up my favorite character with purple IO sets. As I relentlessly ran missions into the dirt, street hunted during busy hours in peregrine island for larger mobs, I kept thinking, they're datamining this. They are looking at my numbers and because I have worked to put 25 purple IO enhancements in slots they are going to put and end to my fun. Me, personally. They hate me. This game hates me.
Thank you for proving me correct. I will stop playing my level 50 characters. I will not spend my time in this game min/maxing my toons anymore. I will stop helping random heroes I see on the streets, because who knows if it's a dev that's going to turn around and nerf my powers next week. To hell with suggesting my regular weeknight team pick up people we've never played with to fill out our teams with.
I'll just try and get some brief enjoyment out of the two toons I play regularly now, maybe get them to 50, then stop playing altogether.
Mostro - Mr Methane - Beast Lightning - Akrasia - Contraindicator - BattleBomb - Norsewind - Poundy Hammer - Fatron - Mysteriesque - Chiisai Tora - Goth Claw - Mach Barrier - Bearly Human - Prototype Alpha - Crabbly - Puffy Morpheus
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Based on my experience with a reasonably random sampling of player characters in pick up groups, I have not observed hasten to be very commonly used.
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Hmm. Pretty much everyone I know has it and uses it. Maybe the drunk server is just the smart server too
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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It's amusing that the name of this thread is "Recharge Inheritance Change"
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It can mean the inheritance by the pet's own powers of the recharge slotted in the parent summoning power, as well as inheritance of buffs on the caster by pets.
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But none of that has been changed. If I'm understanding what is being said, the values are being inherited, but they are just being ignored.
Note that if I'm right, no Mastermind pets or "true" pets should be inheriting recharge from their parent. So the reason they are getting this change is not because they are getting recharge from their parent. It's because they are having AI problems. The two separate problems, though (2) and 3)) are being handled by simply ignoring recharge in both cases.
I suspect that in some cases, though, inherited recharge is "slipping past" to true pets. And recharge buffs are being accidently applied to psuedo-pets. I can't be sure that's what's happening, but I can't be sure it isn't, either.
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It's amusing that the name of this thread is "Recharge Inheritance Change"
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It can mean the inheritance by the pet's own powers of the recharge slotted in the parent summoning power, as well as inheritance of buffs on the caster by pets.
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But none of that has been changed. If I'm understanding what is being said, the values are being inherited, but they are just being ignored.
Note that if I'm right, no Mastermind pets or "true" pets should be inheriting recharge from their parent. So the reason they are getting this change is not because they are getting recharge from their parent. It's because they are having AI problems. The two separate problems, though (2) and 3)) are being handled by simply ignoring recharge in both cases.
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And yet on test, it's not fixing the AI issues.
Testing so far is quite the contrary making such a broad and sweeping change not worth the consequences for the advertised affect.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.
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You say that like it matters. It doesn't. "Game-breaking" means its definitely not allowed. "Not game-breaking" means nothing.
Proving something in the game is not game breaking is comparable to proving it doesn't cause acne.
On the subject of what is and is not intuitive, I generally stay away from the subject in general, but one of the things I find most non-intuitive is that pets often use a higher damage scale than their casters, which means a low damage archetype is effectively allowed to summon the use of powers that operate beyond their damage scale.
The "intuitive" bomb does not discriminate targets. It should be considered the nuclear option and left in its silos.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Based on my experience with a reasonably random sampling of player characters in pick up groups, I have not observed hasten to be very commonly used.
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Hmm. Pretty much everyone I know has it and uses it. Maybe the drunk server is just the smart server too
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the three power pools I see most often are:
fitness
speed
flight
(in no particular order). I'd be surprised if data mining showed a diff powerpool higher than any of those in pve.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Voltaic Sentinel really needs its life-cycle fixed to 4 minutes.
Originally, VS was immobile. (Like Auto-Turret.)
That meant having to resummon it every mob or two, so it was given a low recharge.
That was in the days of multiple pet summonings, so it was given an equally low lifetime to avoid stacking many of them in one spot.
Now that so much has evolved around it, we're left with a pet no different than others, but with a re-summon every minute.
That's annoying. And it's not in line with all the other pets that last 4 minutes.
I've been trying to get some attention to this since VS became available to Corruptors and Dominators. In light of this latest change, maybe it's a good time to fix VS's problems.
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wouldn't be opposed to buffing VS's life span, but no longer than Lightning Storm imo, since Corruptor and Dominator versions have a Scourge effect.
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In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.
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You say that like it matters. It doesn't. "Game-breaking" means its definitely not allowed. "Not game-breaking" means nothing.
Proving something in the game is not game breaking is comparable to proving it doesn't cause acne.
On the subject of what is and is not intuitive, I generally stay away from the subject in general, but one of the things I find most non-intuitive is that pets often use a higher damage scale than their casters, which means a low damage archetype is effectively allowed to summon the use of powers that operate beyond their damage scale.
The "intuitive" bomb does not discriminate targets. It should be considered the nuclear option and left in its silos.
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good point, but didn't really apply to LS or VS did it. VS blast was about equal to a t1 no and LS was about a t1.5? Not saying that as anything other than they seemed to be specifically adjusted to not do too much damage on the AT's they were found on. (ie fender LS hit harder than troller LS and corr VS scourges).
I dunno, never really looked at that part too closely tbh.
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And yet on test, it's not fixing the AI issues.
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But Castle has said that the AI issues are not the only reason for the "fix". That's just 3), there is also 1) and 2).
And from what I have heard, the change has made the AI behavior better. It may not be totally correct, but it has not become WORSE. Therefore, it has accomplished its stated goal. The question is whether that goal, plus the new immunity to recharge debuffs your pets now have, makes up for the loss of DPS that a few individuals with tweaked out builds are able to demonstrate.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Voltaic Sentinel really needs its life-cycle fixed to 4 minutes.
Originally, VS was immobile. (Like Auto-Turret.)
That meant having to resummon it every mob or two, so it was given a low recharge.
That was in the days of multiple pet summonings, so it was given an equally low lifetime to avoid stacking many of them in one spot.
Now that so much has evolved around it, we're left with a pet no different than others, but with a re-summon every minute.
That's annoying. And it's not in line with all the other pets that last 4 minutes.
I've been trying to get some attention to this since VS became available to Corruptors and Dominators. In light of this latest change, maybe it's a good time to fix VS's problems.
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wouldn't be opposed to buffing VS's life span, but no longer than Lightning Storm imo.
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Just because you see "scourge" appearing over somethings head doesnt mean the damage being done is awesome, 1 pt of damage scourging is still only 2 pts of damage. If VS was perma its still unlikely to be worth taking over other powers especially as a tier 9
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Just because you see "scourge" appearing over somethings head doesnt mean the damage being done is awesome, 1 pt of damage scourging is still only 2 pts of damage. If VS was perma its still unlikely to be worth taking over other powers especially as a tier 9
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I can assure you, in case you had any doubts, that VS does not do a mere 1 point of damage.
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Just because you see "scourge" appearing over somethings head doesnt mean the damage being done is awesome, 1 pt of damage scourging is still only 2 pts of damage. If VS was perma its still unlikely to be worth taking over other powers especially as a tier 9
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since when is double damage not awesome?
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Just because you see "scourge" appearing over somethings head doesnt mean the damage being done is awesome, 1 pt of damage scourging is still only 2 pts of damage. If VS was perma its still unlikely to be worth taking over other powers especially as a tier 9
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I can assure you, in case you had any doubts, that VS does not do a mere 1 point of damage.
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I assure you, in case you had any doubts, that VS does indeed suck in all incarnations. I also assure you, in case you had any doubts that it is not a viable tier 9 power even in its current, super game breaking form with its mighty ability to recycle its one attack faster than 2.5 seconds.
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I assure you, in case you had any doubts, that VS does indeed suck in all incarnations. I also assure you, in case you had any doubts that it is not a viable tier 9 power even in its current, super game breaking form with its mighty ability to recycle its one attack faster than 2.5 seconds.
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Your opinion. Mine, as someone who uses VS, is different.
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It's amusing that the name of this thread is "Recharge Inheritance Change"
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It can mean the inheritance by the pet's own powers of the recharge slotted in the parent summoning power, as well as inheritance of buffs on the caster by pets.
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But none of that has been changed. If I'm understanding what is being said, the values are being inherited, but they are just being ignored.
Note that if I'm right, no Mastermind pets or "true" pets should be inheriting recharge from their parent. So the reason they are getting this change is not because they are getting recharge from their parent. It's because they are having AI problems. The two separate problems, though (2) and 3)) are being handled by simply ignoring recharge in both cases.
I suspect that in some cases, though, inherited recharge is "slipping past" to true pets. And recharge buffs are being accidently applied to psuedo-pets. I can't be sure that's what's happening, but I can't be sure it isn't, either.
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You're right that they're still inheriting it but now ignoring it. But that's because they couldn't figure out any way to stop them from inheriting it that didn't require too much work or cause other problems.
I'll reiterate some surmises I've made earlier:
(1) This was really about a decision that RIP sets had to be fixed.
(2) There was no other fix for RIP sets that didn't exacerbate the problem with Recharge inheritance causing some pets to be over-powered (relative to designed intent).
(3) The idea that the change would have a beneficial side effect on Pet AI was considered a plus.
(4) The patch note didn't mention the issue with Recharge inheritance because that was classified as an exploit - and exploits are explicitly left out of TR patch notes.
(5) The patch note leaving out mention of RIP sets was a mistake, probably due to those sets being so closely linked with the exploit. Castle corrected this oversight fairly quickly, but the idea didn't take and the discussion continued to assume the change was mostly about AI. The devs finally decided to come clean and state that Pet Recharge Inheritance is the reason for the nerf.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.
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*laughs*
This is more or less my feeling. My Ill/Storm is fun (and effective!) pre-LS, and somehow I don't think that when she gets to L38 I'm suddenly going to hate her because I can't make LS hit people as often. I've never really understood how a change to one power makes a character unplayable in some people's eyes. If you don't like a large subset of powers in a powerset, why pick it in the first place?
(That having been said, I do hope the devs will consider offering a freespec with this change, since I can see why some people might want to rebuild to take this into account.)
TBH, I didn't even know that recharge could be passed along to attack rate on something like that... I always assumed the only thing it would affect was how often I could summon. I suppose I might notice a difference with, say, Spectral Terror or Phantom Army, but since I enjoy the entire playstyle of the set combo, I'm not really concerned about that part of it.
The only concern I have is the flipside. If pets can't be affected by -recharge, does this extend to pets summoned by enemies? That would change the tactics you need to use with some characters against some mobs, if so, and I'd like confirmation one way or another on this point, particularly as regards custom MA mobs like Masterminds.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Alright, hopefully a redname will see this post, because I don't want to start another thread on the matter (because it will either fall to the wayside or get locked).
Pet recharge change - issues
First, I understand why this change is being pushed through. I can also understand the necessity behind it, but I also hope you understand the impact this will have on a particular few sets. I know things will eventually get looked at but I know the speed at which things get datamined and changes get made is slow and can take a long time. As such, I'd just like to throw a few suggestions out there and see what we can come up with.
There are three specific powers you mentioned as partial causes for this change - Gun Drone, Voltaic Sentinel, and Lightning Storm. In the case of GD and LS, they inherited recharge from the caster from things like Hasten or external buffs - so not something that IOs can really be blamed for. First, let's take a look at Gun Drone.
Gun Drone has a base end cost of 39, a 180-second recharge, a 90-second duration, and an interruptible six-second cast time. Its attack rate can be increased by simply slotting it with normal recharge IOs, unique among these kinds of pets. Gun Drone has a single attack power (Gatling Gun) that does about 65 damage and recharges in 5 seconds with a 1-second activation. At face value that's at most 15 attacks during that 90 second window at a per-attack end cost that is roughly on par with Neutrino Bolt. However, GD's AI isn't spectacular and it rarely will fire all 15 shots before it explodes. This doesn't change the fact that it still costs an obscene amount of end to summon (higher than almost any other power except Mastermind's Lightning Storm and pet upgrades) and is interruptible for six seconds. Not to mention that Voltaic Sentinel, the most similar pet mechanically, costs less end, isn't interruptible, and is permanent out of the box (60s duration, 60s recharge).
Suggestions:
* Lower end cost and lower recharge to 90 seconds
* Disallow multiple entities
* Change animation and remove or significantly reduce interrupt time (the "wrist keypad" that bots use would be thematically appropriate)
* Reduce Defiance bonus to reflect the reduced cast time
Next, we take a look at Voltaic Sentinel. VS does not inherit buffs from the caster but its attack rate could be increased by slotting end mod sets with a recharge aspect. VS has a more-respectable end cost of 26, a non-interruptible 3.1s cast time, and a recharge and duration of 60s. It has one attack, Electrical Bolt, which recharges in 2.5s and has a 1.17s activation time. Of the pets particularly targeted by this change, it seems to be the least affected because of its fast attack rate. Still...
Suggestions:
* Slightly increase the damage per attack, or slightly reduce the recharge time of its attack
Finally, a look at Lightning Storm. This is, as evidenced by feedback from the forums, the power that has taken the biggest hit as a result of this change. LS has a base end cost of 31.2 end (39 for Masterminds), recharges in 90s and has a 60s duration, with a 2.03s non-interruptible cast time. Its single attack, Lightning, has a 5-foot AoE radius, a recharge of 4s, and an activation time of 1.17s. The reduction in effectiveness of this power is not minor, as many characters took Hasten without even knowing it also served to buff this power, not to mention it benefited from external buffs like SB, AM, etc. This power is not terrible now by any means, but it could use some form of compensation.
Suggestions:
* Reduce the end cost of the summon power - for an immobile and slow-firing pet, 30-40 end is an awful lot
* Slightly increase damage or reduce recharge time of the attack (see Voltaic Sentinel)
* Make the pet mobile, even if it is slow - this would more than offset the damage loss because it would be able to be utilized for its entire duration instead of just the few seconds the fight is near it
* Give the pet a slower-recharging version of Thunder Clap - this makes thematic sense, and if the pet couldn't move, it would at least serve to add some control into the mix
Thanks for reading, if you've made it this far. Hopefully these suggestions will be taken into account.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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1) recharge from set IOs affecting pet attack rate - This had been publically stated as unintended behavior, but not recently enough and in the clearest way possible.
2) recharge carried over from buffs on the player such as Hasten, SB, AB, AM - perhaps that had been publically stated as unintended behavior (I'm not sure - never saw it myself). It seemed a bit odd to me, but in light of all other in-game oddities it wasn't obviously unintended.
3) recharge placed directly onto targeted pets from outside buffs such as SB, AB, AM...I've never seen that stated as unintended, and in fact this type of buffing always appeared to be 100% intended to me.
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Agreed. I think that last one is why the devs hesitated as long as they did, and why "no one was happy with the decision", in Castle's words. The last one SEEMS correct, at least for true pets, it is a separate entity, and thus buffed separately. It may not be correct for psuedo pets, or at least those that are not targettable, as they should probably fire at whatever rate has been set for them. It's the other buffs from the player that should carry over to the pseudo-pet, but recharge is how often the player fires the "pet", not how often the "pet" fires.
The thought just hit me, that if a player is hit by AM, then summons a pet, then that pet is hit by AM, assuming the pet gets the player's recharge carried over, does that mean the pet now has the equivalent of TWO stacked AMs running on him? The AM also lets the caster summon the pet more often, but if he also passes his recharge buff to the pet, that means the damage is not just exponetial, it's cubic. (Actually, it's more like 2xAM^2, which is still squared)
Needless to say, it probably never got that bad (LS probably could inherit AM from the caster, but could not be buffed by it directly) but maybe trying to preserve 3) was a mistake. You still do get the advantage of more frequent summoning, except with Masterminds. And the AI was probably designed around foes, not pets and henchmen, so the devs didn't even bother to find out how recharge would effect it.