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I really don't think I would be able to survive the level of stress some folks bring into their entertainment.
I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.
As a matter of fact, though I've been here since the end of I3, there have only been two power reductions that I ever really payed attention to. ED and the GDN. Even then, I ran a quick respec, and carried on like I always did.
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Q F Ever-lovin' T!!
I play this game (GAME!!!!!) to have fun and to take on the role of a comic book hero or villain. As long as I can beat up bad guys (or cause some mayhem), I'm happy. If something changes, I adapt and play on.
I have never believed that any "rebalancing" has "nerfed one of my characters into uselessness." I have never deleted thanks to any power change. I enjoy playing whole characters, and every single character is more than the sum of a few powers.
All this just seems like a silly thing to get one's undies in a twist about. It makes me wonder if the folks who obsess over every second of recharge and maximum efficiency have difficulty separating work and play. The things one does for entertainment are supposed to be fun. The things that are tedious or stressful should not be done for fun. If you are going to do something tedious and / or stressful, you should be getting paid for it in some way. I usually call this kind of activity "work."
Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.
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that's how you enjoy the game.
I'm mathematically and achievement orientated. I notice 3% differences in my performance in this game, in my work, and in sports. That's just who I am.
I've played all of the existing pve in this game and they killed pvp (for me) in i13 so one of the really enjoyable things I've found in this game is tweaking a build to the maximum point of effectiveness.
That's fun to me and their drive to homogenize everyone lately and their obvious regret of implementing so many IO's is frustrating to me.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Weird, I specifically tested the Dom version of VS several months ago, and could not get any kind of visible recharge effect from any amount of sneaky IO +rech slotting.
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EndMod sets (on Blaster VS anyway).
Then can we get some official reply on the flipside of this issue... Which (if any) NPC pets will be affected by this, and has it been considered the impact this will have on players.
I have a real fear my Ice tank, still stinging from hibernation nerfs, will be completly helpless in the MA, considering the popularity of adding masterminds and other pet classes. Did my warshade just get a double nerf for the price of one? Not that I PvP, but what's the impact there going to be?
Several sets use -recharge for mitigation, an official word explaining the effects on that would be most appreciated as well.
Eeeh, putzing around on test I just breezed through an arc I had built with my IOed stormy. Didn't pay much attention to what the storm cloud was doing, but I didn't feel like I had been stripped of my killing power. Tossed up puffy and it pinged away at things. In fact, had an easier time with the storm defender running the arc than I did with my tank or scrapper.
Was I playing wrong? Reading through this thread I feel like I should be filled with some sort of outrage or something.
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Eeeh, putzing around on test I just breezed through an arc I had built with my IOed stormy. Didn't pay much attention to what the storm cloud was doing, but I didn't feel like I had been stripped of my killing power. Tossed up puffy and it pinged away at things. In fact, had an easier time with the storm defender running the arc than I did with my tank or scrapper.
Was I playing wrong? Reading through this thread I feel like I should be filled with some sort of outrage or something.
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defender storm has not been "fixed" yet. so you wouldnt have missed the recharge on your lightning storm.
Not to leave some people out in the cold but:
Certain buff sets and one pet set had the unique ability to provide -rech protection to their pets/team pets, which was a unique design and fairly rare, but valuable protection.
Off hand they are:
necro (pets immune to -rech and -slow)
Poison - antidote
Thermal - thaw
Cold - Arc fog
Kin - Speed boost
Emp - Adrenaline
Is anything being considered being added now that everyone (pets) has these unique abilities. In particular I'm looking at necro as all MM pets are like it now and poison, which a MM could use to help pets in -rech situations. Not to say the other examples aren't pertinent.
I hope they aren't just going to be "part of the ship, part of the crew" in the quest to homogenize everyone.
So now that this is fixed will I be able to slot recharge intensive pet IO sets in my gun drone on my */devices blaster?
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Eeeh, putzing around on test I just breezed through an arc I had built with my IOed stormy. Didn't pay much attention to what the storm cloud was doing, but I didn't feel like I had been stripped of my killing power. Tossed up puffy and it pinged away at things. In fact, had an easier time with the storm defender running the arc than I did with my tank or scrapper.
Was I playing wrong? Reading through this thread I feel like I should be filled with some sort of outrage or something.
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defender storm has not been "fixed" yet. so you wouldnt have missed the recharge on your lightning storm.
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He was doing MA missions, which basically means, he was on test.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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Full disclosure of a fait accompli is a hollow gesture. The time for full disclosure was back when the powers in question were on the table being looked at. Full disclosure would have been a heads up to the player base, like "We don't consider this form of +recharge inheritance to be working as intended, so don't get too used to it. And don't blow too many hours of gameplay building for it."
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Given that this has been stated, repeatedly at that, as unintended behaviour that they just had no means of fixing, why does it come as such a surprise that they eventually fixed it when they found the means, or rather the motivation to fix? Specific powers were tagged to not accept specific enhancements, yet people still assumed that their being able to sneak that kind of enhancement despite the specific ban and despite what the developers were saying and have been saying was absolutely intended and would never be altered?
Welcome to I2. Your Smoke Grenade has just been fixed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Castle,
I am worried about my Fire Imps. As far as I know they have only one attack. If they have another attack, I am not aware of it since it all looks the same. If this does affect Fire Imps, do you plan on giving them another power so they benefit from the cycling as this fix is intended to provide? Or do you believe Fire is still too powerful because of Kinetics?
Do you consider this fix a benefit or nerf to Fire Imps in particular? Do you foresee DPS going up for some pets, down or staying the same for others?
Defenders' Lightning Storm on Test had not been updated (when last I checked) to have its attacks be unaffected by +recharge.
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Eeeh, putzing around on test I just breezed through an arc I had built with my IOed stormy. Didn't pay much attention to what the storm cloud was doing, but I didn't feel like I had been stripped of my killing power. Tossed up puffy and it pinged away at things. In fact, had an easier time with the storm defender running the arc than I did with my tank or scrapper.
Was I playing wrong? Reading through this thread I feel like I should be filled with some sort of outrage or something.
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defender storm has not been "fixed" yet. so you wouldnt have missed the recharge on your lightning storm.
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He was doing MA missions, which basically means, he was on test.
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defender lightning storm has not been fixed yet on test. there has been several people to have confirmed this
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Then can we get some official reply on the flipside of this issue... Which (if any) NPC pets will be affected by this, and has it been considered the impact this will have on players.
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I can't answer specifically which aren't effected, but it looks like LS and VS for critters are -- but they aren't targetable anyway. Likely, all Mastermind pets used in the MA and all pets which are summons of player pets will be effected as well.
Any NPC critter that is specifically not a player pet will NOT be effected. They're not on Arcanaville's list. So Clockworks summoned by Assemblers, the Slag Golems summoned by Callystix, Inferno's demons, Banished Pantheon summoned by Dark Shamans, etc., they will still be debuffable.
wow just thought about all those imps in the cap sf(i think it is the cap i am redside challenged)
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I think the fix may be worse than the bug. You've replaced one counterintuitive behavior with another. It makes me curious how you decided this new behavior was preferable. In other words, why is this a net positive for the players?
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Exactly, since there's the third option of putting this on that pile of things they don't touch. Or, if they are going to make changes, why not look at the recent one that exacerbated the problem to the point that it became noticeable (the recharge-intensive pet IOs)?
I don't like this because it is a playstyle changer that hits some longtime playstyles (since i7, says he), and changes like that shouldn't be considered without answering a question like the one Mu poses above. Having a character that you have enjoyed playing get hit by something like this is a big deal.
@Second Chances
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
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Full disclosure of a fait accompli is a hollow gesture. The time for full disclosure was back when the powers in question were on the table being looked at. Full disclosure would have been a heads up to the player base, like "We don't consider this form of +recharge inheritance to be working as intended, so don't get too used to it. And don't blow too many hours of gameplay building for it."
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Given that this has been stated, repeatedly at that, as unintended behaviour that they just had no means of fixing, why does it come as such a surprise that they eventually fixed it when they found the means, or rather the motivation to fix? Specific powers were tagged to not accept specific enhancements, yet people still assumed that their being able to sneak that kind of enhancement despite the specific ban and despite what the developers were saying and have been saying was absolutely intended and would never be altered?
Welcome to I2. Your Smoke Grenade has just been fixed.
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Just the other day I believe normal Rech enhancements buffed LS's attack rate. This is because I haven't slotted anything other than set IO's (usually the ones that are cheaper than So'ing a toon) since they came out.
To say the least this change comes as a surprise to me. I had no idea I was haxxing the game.
Conversely, when I go to slot a pet and see it accepts a def debuff set is it expected for a player to make a logic jump that just because that set has a def/rech in it they aren't supposed to benefit from it?
I guarantee I'll get some tells from friends after this goes live asking why their pets aren't working the same.
I think the vast majority of people slotting their pets to improve performance had no idea it wasn't intended. I'm pretty up on the game and had no idea because I've also played buff sets like kin and always been able to buff pets.
what's done is done, but I can assure you most people will be surprised by this on live, your assumption of game knowledge and dev position by the average player is way off.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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that would have been so much better, could have saved myself literally hours of going off the deep end trying to protect LS from the pet nerf. Only to find out LS "IS THE PET NERF" lol.
I never would have thought LS, VS and gun drone were too strong, especially given how many people lol@VS and I rarely hear people talking up GD. LS has always been considered pretty good, but there is another reason for that.
Personally I think it smells of backpedaling to cover his butt, but it makes no difference to the outcome, just helps to ensure continued developer mistrust 
.
[/ QUOTE ]Thats the problem I have with this change and why it doesnt make sense. VS, LS, Gun drone are all powers that were for the most part were not the best and sometimes even skipped. So how would having the extra recharge make them overpowered? You are looking at just a few more blasts per summon. Its not like defenders or blasters are going to be soloing the STF. I cant see any harm in letting these powers keep their recharge. I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.
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Because the method people were using to make them "worth it" was basically broken.
You can't very well say that it was working well when the only way you could make it work well enough to take required you to game the system and use loopholes to cheat the system. This patch removed some of those loopholes. And how we can look at the power without all these extra *'s.
Oh, it's a good power*
I based my whole toon around this power*
It works fine*
*because it works in X fashion as a result of a loophole in the code.
Without that we can see how the power is suppose to work. Is it doing too much damage? Is it recharging too fast? Is it too strong? Too weak?
NOW you make those arguments. If after removing those loopholes the power doesn't work well enough on it's own. Then the power is too weak. And should be buffed.
But breaking the system again because it sort of makes these powers worth it, because they suck otherwise. That's... not going to happen.
[/ QUOTE ]It takes them forever and a day to buff stuff in this game. I find it hard to believe that all the extra recharge was never meant to be if it wasnt then why allow it in the first place back when they did it in issue 7? They could have just as easily let the pets accept the other buffs from the caster except recharge back in issue 7. Its all just a cop out, and I am pretty much done fighting about this. I am done with storm summoning. To me this is them going back on their word with never making the game harder due to IOs, them going back on never givng older powers the SoW treatment. Having so much more recharge is not game breaking in anyway possible. In fact I would like for someone to prove its game breaking for LS to be the way it is.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Given that this has been stated, repeatedly at that, as unintended behaviour that they just had no means of fixing, why does it come as such a surprise that they eventually fixed it when they found the means, or rather the motivation to fix? Specific powers were tagged to not accept specific enhancements, yet people still assumed that their being able to sneak that kind of enhancement despite the specific ban and despite what the developers were saying and have been saying was absolutely intended and would never be altered?
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The Set Enhancement recharge is only one aspect, and I'm not seeing much surprise on that point by itself.
1) recharge from set IOs affecting pet attack rate - I saw this "publically" stated as unintended behavior, but not recently enough and in the clearest way possible. It may be intuitively unintended to some but not everyone. For example: slotting a MM pet with EndRed affects the summoning cost and the pet's attacks...Acc and Dmg affect the pet's attacks...and recharge will now affect only the summoning.
2) recharge carried over from buffs on the player such as Hasten, SB, AB, AM - perhaps that had been publically stated as unintended behavior (I'm not sure - never saw it myself). It seemed a bit odd to me, but in light of all other in-game oddities it wasn't obviously unintended.
3) recharge placed directly onto targeted pets from outside buffs such as SB, AB, AM...I've never seen that stated as unintended, and in fact this type of buffing always appeared to be 100% intended to me.
The sheer scope of the change and its side effects (on NPC pets, on the unique benefits of RechRes powers and pets with RechRes, etc) was clearly not expected by most posters. Even those aspects of the change which (as I noted above) may have been directed at removing unintended recharge benefits were not dealt with clearly enough in a comprehensive discussion that we've all seen. Thus, the wave of sudden surprise / disappointment posts is both predictable and understandable.
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what's done is done, but I can assure you most people will be surprised by this on live, your assumption of game knowledge and dev position by the average player is way off.
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Actually, I'm guessing if you walk up to a random player of the game and ask him, "Hey, if I slot Lightning Storm with Recharge, what's going to happen?" he will say, "It comes up more often". If he says "It fires faster -- oh, and it also comes up more often" then more than likely he already knows what you know.
You might run into the occasional player who knows enough about it to say, "Um... I'm guessing it either recharges faster, or it fires more often. Probably recharges faster. Yeah, that's probably it", then he knows enough to know the game, but not about that set specifically.
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But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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wait VS was singled out because its ONE and ONLY crappy attack was recycling too quickly? This is something that costs 26% of your blue bar to summon EVERY minute, its damage is pathetic, its AI retarded and on top of that a tier 9 secondary power for dominators.
I gotta know, what kinda Voltaic sentinel are you thinking of/or run on the dev servers? I can only assume its some form of giant electrical hamidon-type entitity spewing untyped unresistable damage and has hoards of lvl 54 boss type electrical gremlins surrounding it. Now that would need a nerf, I admit it, however the VS we have on live for ALL ATs sucks [censored] and it being a dominators lvl 38 power is just one big middle finger.
Well, Castle, thanks for the explanation of why this change is being imposed. I am still opposed to the idea, futile as that may be to even say.
I at least am lucky enough that none of my affected heroes are high enough to have invested any significant work in utilizing what has now been years after the fact announced as unintended behaviour. You should hear some of the comments from my SG/coalition mates who count on me to read and report to them on forums and patch notes... From their reaction I rather suspect that the minority of the greater player base who notices this nerf is going to be quite put out.
It is admittedly just a matter of taste, but I *hate* radical changes in ongoing game systems. The severity of the problem just does not seem to warrant the magnitude of the fix in this instance to me. But hey, it's your game, and you're the one who has to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous nastygrams and bug reports, not me.
Wouldn't annoy me quite so much had it not happened to another set of my heroes just in the last issue. (sigh) You guys gonna make a habit of this? Last MMO I was in that did became quite unenjoyable because of the constant flux of the systems.
Suggestion for you - since the vision of how each power fits into the whole scheme seems to be very important to the design team's decision making process, how about sharing that vision? There's a forum for every AT. A stickied document in each one giving the designer's current views on the role and design philosophy of each powerset (or ideally each power) and how it fits in the greater whole might go a long way toward defusing the screams of anguish that greet the major changes you discover are necessary as new information comes to light about what your codebase is doing when exposed to those pesky actual players. Big project I know, but you guys must have SOME internal documents and discussions of powersets and powers to use as a starting point. You could even I suppose get the players to do some of the work for you by having some discussion/Q&A threads on the powers and powersets and having each AT forum boil the resulting thread down into a "vision statement" document that the developers review and modify for final publication. Some of the forums already produce some mighty fine documents, you might be able to tap into that.
Hunter's Forty-Sixth Rule: If your head explodes, you were thinking too much, otherwise you shouldn't worry about the possibility.
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what's done is done, but I can assure you most people will be surprised by this on live, your assumption of game knowledge and dev position by the average player is way off.
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Actually, I'm guessing if you walk up to a random player of the game and ask him, "Hey, if I slot Lightning Storm with Recharge, what's going to happen?" he will say, "It comes up more often". If he says "It fires faster -- oh, and it also comes up more often" then more than likely he already knows what you know.
You might run into the occasional player who knows enough about it to say, "Um... I'm guessing it either recharges faster, or it fires more often. Probably recharges faster. Yeah, that's probably it", then he knows enough to know the game, but not about that set specifically.
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No I mean when you speed boost a pet and it now does nothing but make it run into the next mob and die faster, that will come as a nice surprise to live players.
I agree not many people knew how to improve LS. Like I said at one point I just always figured it did, someone else could just as easily figure differently. I didn't set out to game LS though, I just saw that it has an epic recharge, costs a third of my end bar and does low base damage and wanted to improve all those aspects. Most don't know it has very high acc too, and I was among them. With 4 attributes to improve I just jammed in some cheap set IO's and voila. I didn't even consciously know how much LS benefited until I sat down and ran some numbers and was like "woah" this is a good power, it does about as much st damage as my imps.
Which tbh seemed right to me as it cost a lot more end over time than imps and can't move, seemed like how it was supposed to be. I was wrong lol.
At any rate, this patch once people realize they can no longer buff real pets will draw some cockeyed looks.
I haven't tried pvp on my ice/psy dominator, but if this goes live... Eww. He will be real pet bait. 
DM/Elec brute, 50
Ice/Psi dom, 50
Crab, 50
Elec/WP Scrapper, 50
TW/WP Scrapper, 50
Robot/Trap MM, 50
Fire/Earth dom, 50
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I really don't think I would be able to survive the level of stress some folks bring into their entertainment.
I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.
As a matter of fact, though I've been here since the end of I3, there have only been two power reductions that I ever really payed attention to. ED and the GDN. Even then, I ran a quick respec, and carried on like I always did.
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pretty much how it is for me
sorry number crunchers
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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that would have been so much better, could have saved myself literally hours of going off the deep end trying to protect LS from the pet nerf. Only to find out LS "IS THE PET NERF" lol.
I never would have thought LS, VS and gun drone were too strong, especially given how many people lol@VS and I rarely hear people talking up GD. LS has always been considered pretty good, but there is another reason for that.
Personally I think it smells of backpedaling to cover his butt, but it makes no difference to the outcome, just helps to ensure continued developer mistrust
[/ QUOTE ]Thats the problem I have with this change and why it doesnt make sense. VS, LS, Gun drone are all powers that were for the most part were not the best and sometimes even skipped. So how would having the extra recharge make them overpowered? You are looking at just a few more blasts per summon. Its not like defenders or blasters are going to be soloing the STF. I cant see any harm in letting these powers keep their recharge. I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.
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Because the method people were using to make them "worth it" was basically broken.
You can't very well say that it was working well when the only way you could make it work well enough to take required you to game the system and use loopholes to cheat the system. This patch removed some of those loopholes. And how we can look at the power without all these extra *'s.
Oh, it's a good power*
I based my whole toon around this power*
It works fine*
*because it works in X fashion as a result of a loophole in the code.
Without that we can see how the power is suppose to work. Is it doing too much damage? Is it recharging too fast? Is it too strong? Too weak?
NOW you make those arguments. If after removing those loopholes the power doesn't work well enough on it's own. Then the power is too weak. And should be buffed.
But breaking the system again because it sort of makes these powers worth it, because they suck otherwise. That's... not going to happen.