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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
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The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
*quick reply*
I have wanted to say this for a day or two now. GET OVER IT, and move on with your lives. My favorite character is my plant/storm controller, he is strong and a wonderful character to play. After this patch goes to live you know what i'm going to be playing? My plant/storm controller.
They is almost no chance in hell that they are going to reconsider this, MOVE ON.
Though if you want to ask for a buff in return, go for it, just try to be civil people. >_<
Thank you for your time, have a nice day. 
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The only concern I have is the flipside. If pets can't be affected by -recharge, does this extend to pets summoned by enemies? That would change the tactics you need to use with some characters against some mobs, if so, and I'd like confirmation one way or another on this point, particularly as regards custom MA mobs like Masterminds.
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Direct from Castle: It is not intended to extend to enemies, but in some cases it does. This is when enemies use the same powers we do. The devs will not add this feature to enemy pets that we players do not summon.
Yes, it's very likely that Mastermind critters in the MA will summon pets that cannot have their recharge debuffed, and some other sets may summon such pets too. It depends on whether there are critter versions of the pets which can be summoned instead.
Arcanaville recommended that the devs go over this and possibly clone any pets that are currently shared at a future time. I think that's probably the best solution too. Mastermind pets, though, there are just so many of them that it may not be possible to just create duplicates of them all. Then again, critter MMs may have other issues that will be balanced like this. (Such as, Enforcers often take so long to summon that they can take some damage even before they appear)
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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).
[/ QUOTE ]
But then that is not a broad sweeping fix as it's advertised. If that is the case then they have the ability to pick and choose what pets are affected.
If that's the case then why must every pet suffer for the sake of an issue happening with a few? Flag the ones with the issue and move on leaving the rest alone.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
[ QUOTE ]
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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
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The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot [...]
[/ QUOTE ]
Note that since Castle just said this is the power he was intending to look at, it's oversight must be just that, an oversight. The critter version of the power has been changed, it could be that was accidently changed instead of the Defender version, or maybe the Defender version was just missed.
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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).
[/ QUOTE ]
But then that is not a broad sweeping fix as it's advertised. If that is the case then they have the ability to pick and choose what pets are affected.
If that's the case then why must every pet suffer for the sake of an issue happening with a few? Flag the ones with the issue and move on leaving the rest alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Castle, in the OP of this thread, specifically singled out a few powers, including Lightning Storm, as another reason for this change. Since the Defender version uses a different name, it's more than likely someone forgot to change it in the spreadsheet, not that they're trying to make a point of only getting certain powers with the change.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Jade, falling in love with a beast doesn't make it any easier for anyone else to look at. *cough* The tier-8 vs tier-9 difference doesn't matter all that much, as there are skippable powers in both positions on any number of powersets. Also, make sure you're comparing the same pet. Corruptors, dominators and blasters all get the same damage value for v-sent; defenders get roughly 75% of that. Of course, the corruptors and dominators don't get the same damage values elsewhere in the e-blast set, making v-sent a better value by comparison than it is for blasters. In fact, straight out of the box the villain version of v-sent does more damage than charged bolts.
[ QUOTE ]
But then that is not a broad sweeping fix as it's advertised. If that is the case then they have the ability to pick and choose what pets are affected.
If that's the case then why must every pet suffer for the sake of an issue happening with a few? Flag the ones with the issue and move on leaving the rest alone.
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Because, it appears, it is not the devs' intention to pick and choose the culprits in this problem. Instead, they intend for it to be a broad, sweeping change.
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The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
[/ QUOTE ]
The Defender version uses a different pet than the other three ATs that have access to it (slightly higher damage is the only difference). Chances are simply someone forgot to add it to the list of affected powers and it will be "fixed" sometime within the next few patches (or it'll be ignored for a year or so and then finally be fixed to much complaining from the Defender boards).
[/ QUOTE ]
But then that is not a broad sweeping fix as it's advertised. If that is the case then they have the ability to pick and choose what pets are affected.
If that's the case then why must every pet suffer for the sake of an issue happening with a few? Flag the ones with the issue and move on leaving the rest alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because Castle, in the OP of this thread, specifically singled out a few powers, including Lightning Storm, as another reason for this change. Since the Defender version uses a different name, it's more than likely someone forgot to change it in the spreadsheet, not that they're trying to make a point of only getting certain powers with the change.
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I'm not advocating for LS here Mac, I'm advocating for MM and controller pets. Why are they going to be subject to this "change" when it is within the realm of possibility to leave them out of it; they don't inherit hasten from the caster nor any other buffs.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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I'm not advocating for LS here Mac, I'm advocating for MM and controller pets. Why are they going to be subject to this "change" when it is within the realm of possibility to leave them out of it; they don't inherit hasten from the caster nor any other buffs.
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The MM and Controller pets are because of the AI issues. Again, the devs don't want to pick and choose who has an issue and who doesn't, they want a broad, sweeping change.
Yes, they COULD make it specific to a pet. But I think it's very likely they won't.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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It seems to me like illusionists really take it up the [censored] on this one. Are you going to lower the recharge time of PA to compensate, since that is our major form of 'control' since our other aspects of control are lacking to other sets?
If you're going to follow through with this, I would suggest that you lower the recharge times of pet summoning to compensate for the fact that we can no longer slot 3 recharges in them.
So villains can get Kinetic Masterminds now right? 
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If you're going to follow through with this, I would suggest that you lower the recharge times of pet summoning to compensate for the fact that we can no longer slot 3 recharges in them.
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Actually, seems like it would be a good idea to make it so you can slot recharges in them.
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But that right there seems to be the fallacy that is being handed to us Kosmos... (2).
Test right now, Defender LS is exempt from the changes. Obviously it is within the system to make certain powers exempt without causing issue.
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You're mistaken, that exemption is still causing the issue.
They consider the ability of pets such as LS to inherit Recharge to be an exploit. That is, it is something players can do to enhance performance through exploiting a hole in their system. They plugged most of the holes, but missed the one in Defender LS. A mistake that has probably already been corrected in a patch we'll see in a week or so.
[ QUOTE ]
The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
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Of course they do, they didn't tag the pet's power with the flag to ignore Recharge changes. It isn't working because of a quirk that allowed it to escape a global nerf, it's working because someone missed checking a box on a form (in effect).
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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I'm not advocating for LS here Mac, I'm advocating for MM and controller pets. Why are they going to be subject to this "change" when it is within the realm of possibility to leave them out of it; they don't inherit hasten from the caster nor any other buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
The MM and Controller pets are because of the AI issues. Again, the devs don't want to pick and choose who has an issue and who doesn't, they want a broad, sweeping change.
Yes, they COULD make it specific to a pet. But I think it's very likely they won't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why there is so much animosity twords this change.
It's not needed in such a broad sweeping movement.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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The only concern I have is the flipside. If pets can't be affected by -recharge, does this extend to pets summoned by enemies? That would change the tactics you need to use with some characters against some mobs, if so, and I'd like confirmation one way or another on this point, particularly as regards custom MA mobs like Masterminds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Direct from Castle: It is not intended to extend to enemies, but in some cases it does. This is when enemies use the same powers we do. The devs will not add this feature to enemy pets that we players do not summon.
Yes, it's very likely that Mastermind critters in the MA will summon pets that cannot have their recharge debuffed, and some other sets may summon such pets too. It depends on whether there are critter versions of the pets which can be summoned instead.
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Okay, that's actually about what I figured would be the case. I wasn't sure if enemies were definitely using the same powers, but I presumed that probably was the case when it came to MA customs... just wanted to be sure.
Hopefully the patch note for when this goes to live will be extra-clear on this for people like me who were all head-scratchy.
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Arcanaville recommended that the devs go over this and possibly clone any pets that are currently shared at a future time. I think that's probably the best solution too.
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That would be great if they can, of course, though I know the sheer number of pets out there will make that a fair amount of work, so I'll work under the assumption we won't see that for a while and just assume -recharge won't work on mob pets as a tactic until further notice.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
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Which is why there is so much animosity twords this change.
It's not needed in such a broad sweeping movement.
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Obviously the devs don't agree.
That's certainly a reason for animosity, of course. People tend to become angry with those who don't agree with them.
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It seems to me like illusionists really take it up the [censored] on this one. Are you going to lower the recharge time of PA to compensate, since that is our major form of 'control' since our other aspects of control are lacking to other sets?
If you're going to follow through with this, I would suggest that you lower the recharge times of pet summoning to compensate for the fact that we can no longer slot 3 recharges in them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Recharge enhancements still affect the recharge rate of the caster's summoning power, they just don't affect the recharge rate of the summoned pet's own powers.
So you can still summon PA as often as before, Phanstasm will just shoot and summon his own decoy less often.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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Hopefully the patch note for when this goes to live will be extra-clear on this for people like me who were all head-scratchy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, it took a while for me to get my head around it, too. My first thought was, "Of course this doesn't effect foes, they have totally different powers." But of course some of those powers summon different pets, and some of them summon the same pets. So I did need more information before I could be sure.
Fortunately, Castle responded to a PM, and Arcanaville happened to come up with a list of all effected powers. Plus, we know it is per individual power, so it CAN be "pick and choose", at least where player powers vs critter powers are concerned.
Who knows, maybe individual pets will get the exemption because they are shared by foes. Although that might be counterintuitive.
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Hopefully the patch note for when this goes to live will be extra-clear on this for people like me who were all head-scratchy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, it took a while for me to get my head around it, too. My first thought was, "Of course this doesn't effect foes, they have totally different powers." But of course some of those powers summon different pets, and some of them summon the same pets. So I did need more information before I could be sure.
Fortunately, Castle responded to a PM, and Arcanaville happened to come up with a list of all effected powers. Plus, we know it is per individual power, so it CAN be "pick and choose", at least where player powers vs critter powers are concerned.
Who knows, maybe individual pets will get the exemption because they are shared by foes. Although that might be counterintuitive.
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Its doubtful they will let some pets off because they are part of the enemy mob, some of those pets are part of the reason for this change.
And while i dont agree with this change, at least they are finally forthright with why it happened, and now i know to concentrate on my none-pet based chars now
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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Its doubtful they will let some pets off because they are part of the enemy mob, some of those pets are part of the reason for this change.
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Probably true. Just trying to be a little more positive.
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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended.
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I can admit that when Lightning Storm was allowed to inherit recharge bonuses, the effect of IO sets increasing the zap rate wasnt known. But the developers definitely listed in the changes the fact that these powers inherited these things. So saying they were never meant to have recharge altered cannot be accurate. That was a SELLING point of the issue it came out in.
Now, if you want to say that IO sets affecting it wasnt accounted for then fine.
I wish that at least Hasten still affected Lightning Storm's zap rate. How about a small buff to the damage or the attack rate?
At the very least, you should nerf Defender Lightning Storm as well. Fair is Fair. If you can justify applying this nerf to sets that have LS as a secondary, you could justify halving the blast damage of defender secondary blasts as well.
And I say this as someone with 7 level 50 Storm controllers, 2 level 50 Storm defenders, and with 5 other Storm Defenders up and coming on their way to 50. Fair is fair.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
I've read through all of this thread... and I got cold chill up my spine, as I read through the anguish and dissapointment felt by some of the replies in this thread.
They gave you a power that works "just fine", then suddendly, and without any notice, you find out "just fine" is "OP". Of course, it was all a mistake, and was never "intended". (I'm really starting to dislike this word)
It's like offering someone a seat on cushy chair. A chair that you really really wanted them to try out, they fall asleep in the chair, then you jarringly wake them up, and tell them they have to sit on the wooden stool. Just because you didn't intend for them to fall asleep.
"Dude I was just getting a nap in WTF!"
With that said I don't feel bad for any of you! 
Instead, I welcome you all with open arms, into the Kingdom of Nerfdom
Inhabitants: /Regeneration Scrappers, Fire/Fire Tanks, /Devices Blasters, (those i've missed), and now /Storms.
Remember, be strong, and this too shall pass!
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
But that right there seems to be the fallacy that is being handed to us Kosmos... (2).
Test right now, Defender LS is exempt from the changes. Obviously it is within the system to make certain powers exempt without causing issue.
The question is, do the devs have ANY clue what is making the exemption for the Def version?
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues