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I referred to this as the GPN, the Global Pet Nerf myself in one of the locked threads.
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GPN V2. GPN V1 was when the ability to summon multiples of the same pet with sufficient recharge was removed for a lot of pet types. (But not all, apparently)
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Castle, if this is true, then the patch note is an outright lie. The patch note claims:
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This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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then give us full disclosure. what numbers were used to show that lightning storm as used on live is overpowered compared to what it was designed to do. Another question is when can we get a detailed list of how each power is designed. maybe if we had this information we wouldn't get so upset when you state that the way something is working was a "bug" I am trying very hard to not be ugly and insult anyone over this change. It has made me very upset that the staple power of my ice/storm has been gutted and that now i am being told it was supposed to suck all along. That is very hard to swallow when it is my very first 50 that took me almost a year to get to 50.
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But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.
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Let's look at the alternatives shall we? Let Pet's be boostable with +RECH. But they will have to undo the I7 tech which let's pets inherit buffs of the caster. So that will make the most powers attacks of some Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors and a smatter of other attacks be unable to be affected but Build Up, Aim type powers and Insight and Enrage inspirations. Yeah, that will go over well.
And Lighting Storm is near useless totally useless because it's attack is taking 5 seconds to recharge instead of 2.5 seconds? Gasp. I supposed all of those Controllers and Defenders reaching level 40 before I9 never ever used, much less took, Lightning Storm seeing as it was so unless before IO enhancers. *rolleyes
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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
RIP IO's broken for several months in a variety of ways. One day, while discussing this, another programmer who was looking at AI issues came over and began talking to me about the fact that one of the issues causing aberrant AI behavior was the powers recharging too quickly.
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Tell me if any of these solutions are possible or have been considered....
SOLUTION:
Get rid of RIP IO's and leave everything as is OR change RIP IO bonuses.
If people rather have broken pets that cycle 1 attack because there recharge is to high that's there choice.
OR
You can create a Recharge Debuff IO, that people can slot in there pets. much how like winter's gift only works if you have -rech on you. This can be if your pet has +rech it will negate it. This would please the people who want pets to cycle there powers.
Was there a huge out-cry of pets doing too much dmg while I was away for 5 months?
I understand the Poison Trap proc nerf.
I don't recall people saying Fly Trap was shooting too fast with -def recharge? Or how Merc was too powerful by shooting a little bit faster (since they are still limited by activation)?? Or better, people were crying that VS and Auto Turret are too powerful?
I understand the nerf on LS. I don't think Hasten should affect it. Hasten doesn't affect VS (I've tested this).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Go forth good sir, and do what you have to. I shall tip a glass to my beloved Gatling L-storms and still love their regular selves when they pop up and start blasting the bejesus out of mine enemies.
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I never noticed the recharge thing, but Pets used to get stuck when attacking "items" in Mayem missions without the recharge buffs. Especially the NPC ones. They would rather stare down that diabolical cardboard box than help me with PPD and Longbow. Since this example is not related to recharge, has it been looked at.
At least the Bruiser will leave the "parking meter" to follow me when I get too far away from him.
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There are other AI issues besides the power recharge issue. Such as the Melee only Ally's in MA not closing near enough to actually use any melee attack. They just stand there and stare at their target. And why in the would does my pre-32 Jounin's see so insistent on using Soaring Dragon 2 or 3 times in a row. Makes many an application of Smoke Flash of little value.
I really don't think I would be able to survive the level of stress some folks bring into their entertainment.
I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.
As a matter of fact, though I've been here since the end of I3, there have only been two power reductions that I ever really payed attention to. ED and the GDN. Even then, I ran a quick respec, and carried on like I always did.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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wel thats just PERFECT
thanks for giving me another useless 50 to gut and delete.
EDIT: Dont interfere with the "vision" it was never intended... EVER we are not the superheroes, we are just citizens with a trick or two... most of them dont do anything really.
gads I am mad enough to bite the heads off of nails!
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Do you think the devs really want to tick people off like you are? The spent *months* look at other alternatives. One was to make normal missions become a lag-fest like pre-I9 Hamidon raids. Th other was to render a lot of attack non-buffable at all.And doing nothing wasn't a choice they could make either. They make the only *viable* choice they could make.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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I am ever and always in favor of open and honest discourse, so this thread gets a big thumbs up from me. Thanks, Castle!
My general distaste for +recharge and pets means I'm not really effected by this change at all. So I'm sure it's easier for me to accept than for most of the playerbase. But I do understand Castle's reasoning: the fundamental design of the game is what it is, and this does sound like the best practical solution to several problems. I hope the results will be worth the effort.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
This is a response from Castle on the question of whether critters' pets will be effected. Hopefully he doesn't mind my repost before he confirms it's okay. 
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Some critter pets are affected by this as well, but not all. Generally, the ones affected by it were not target able to begin with.
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Two examples I think I've already seen are the critter Lightning Storm and Voltaic Sentinel. On the other hand, as Castle points out, VS isn't targettable and thus it shouldn't be possible for a player to debuff it. LS I don't know about since I've never used it, but I believe it's untargetable too.
So if Fire Imps or Jack Frost summoned by Frostfire are effected, that wasn't the intention, and hopefully it can be fixed later on.
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If this change was instead to correct LS, VS, and the turret becoming too powerful, it would have been much better if you had just come out and said so. It would also have been nice if we had been notified that this was a bug and that a fix would be implemented when it could. Instead we were lead to believe that this was intended behaviour and slotted accordingly.
I am extremely unhappy with the change. But appreciate your forthrightness. LS, VS, and the Turret became too powerful and now been nerfed. This happens to fix some other pet's AIs as well.
I feel as if we were intentionally mislead by the patch notes inorder to stealth in a nerf.
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that would have been so much better, could have saved myself literally hours of going off the deep end trying to protect LS from the pet nerf. Only to find out LS "IS THE PET NERF" lol.
I never would have thought LS, VS and gun drone were too strong, especially given how many people lol@VS and I rarely hear people talking up GD. LS has always been considered pretty good, but there is another reason for that.
Personally I think it smells of backpedaling to cover his butt, but it makes no difference to the outcome, just helps to ensure continued developer mistrust 
.
[/ QUOTE ]Thats the problem I have with this change and why it doesnt make sense. VS, LS, Gun drone are all powers that were for the most part were not the best and sometimes even skipped. So how would having the extra recharge make them overpowered? You are looking at just a few more blasts per summon. Its not like defenders or blasters are going to be soloing the STF. I cant see any harm in letting these powers keep their recharge. I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Hello Castle, here is a question for you then.....
How come you could fix Frostie's AI, even when SB'd, so he would shoot, then go into combat, when before all he would do is shoot, and you cannot fix all the rest of this.
Why can the recharge element of RIP's just not effect the power and not the pet......because you did manage to find a "FIX" when you found out SB'd Heavys in RV were causing havoc...but not the other way round....
In other words....is this just another sledgehammer to crack a nut going on, you have found a problem, but you HAVE managed to fix a pets broken AI before to ensure it cycles through its powers. Why not hold back and invest some proper time in fixing the real problem....IO sets inadvertantly having an effect they shouldn't, rather than giving all pets a blanket nerf.
Anyway, thats all I have to say on this....and before you all jump on me, I do not have a /kin troller...yet, and do not farm at all, but can see all us non farmer types been inavertantly penalised by the sly back door for this.
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Not an outright lie. The person who wrote the patch note wasn't aware of all the things this was intended to fix. That's one of the main reasons I'm having this discussion: Full disclosure.
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Full disclosure of a fait accompli is a hollow gesture. The time for full disclosure was back when the powers in question were on the table being looked at. Full disclosure would have been a heads up to the player base, like "We don't consider this form of +recharge inheritance to be working as intended, so don't get too used to it. And don't blow too many hours of gameplay building for it."
I've stayed out of this discussion until now, because I know that discussion at this stage is futile; nobody asked for player input when the solution was being worked up, and no player input is going to make any difference now.
That said, I do have several dogs in this fight: a warshade, several controllers including a fire/storm, and several masterminds including a necro/storm.
I'm going to go on mostly unfazed by this nerf/bugfix, because only my fire/storm and necro/storm are going to be hit really hard by it, and I had already mothballed them, for the most part, to spend my time playing other alts.
But something akin to the discussion of blaster defiance should have taken place prior to this change hitting test, if only to save lots of players a lot of disappointment and wasted hours of play.
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I think this happen more so because of the principle of it all (sneaking the recharge in) than more so having the recharge actually making noticable performance.
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This. I agree with what an earlier poster said, establish the baseline, then fix the powers that need work. Any attempt to fix LS or VS at this point would have failed because of the ability of specific builds to leverage the boost.
I think the AI problem was the MAIN problem, but this was a long standing error that was ignored because "it's not that bad".
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Hello Castle, here is a question for you then.....
How come you could fix Frostie's AI, even when SB'd, so he would shoot, then go into combat, when before all he would do is shoot, and you cannot fix all the rest of this.
Why can the recharge element of RIP's just not effect the power and not the pet......because you did manage to find a "FIX" when you found out SB'd Heavys in RV were causing havoc...but not the other way round....
In other words....is this just another sledgehammer to crack a nut going on, you have found a problem, but you HAVE managed to fix a pets broken AI before to ensure it cycles through its powers. Why not hold back and invest some proper time in fixing the real problem....IO sets inadvertantly having an effect they shouldn't, rather than giving all pets a blanket nerf.
Anyway, thats all I have to say on this....and before you all jump on me, I do not have a /kin troller...yet, and do not farm at all, but can see all us non farmer types been inavertantly penalised by the sly back door for this.
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check how long arcana's list of pets affected is and it isn't even complete apparently.
adding a flag to each power on that list is a lot more time effective than going through and fixing the problems provided they even had the capability to fix them. Given the wonkiness of ai and pets in general that is questionable.
We aren't getting the "best solution" we are getting the "best solution given time and resource constraints". Not much we can do about that unfortunately. If something was severely impacted and needs to be addressed I'd suggest bringing it up, but given that they didn't address each pet in a reverse fashion I doubt they'll address each pet to do a balance check in any timely fashion.
There is also the factor that this change is so very convenient to reel in IO's (think they regret adding lots of them) and to ensure that builds utilizing these pets all have relatively the same performance with tiny variation, which is the way the design team is moving.
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Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to limit the effectiveness of pets to match our original design; a bug was allowing nearly all pets to exceed intended levels of damage and control. This fix also allows pets with multiple powers to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked into using a single power, and allows Recharge Intensive Pet IO sets to have the intended effects.
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A little honest & open communication goes a long way... too bad this discussion with the community didn't start months ago when the RIP set bugs were reported. Most of us can accept a clarification of design intent, as long as it happens when you discover a problem and not after even zombies can tentatively poke at the code changes and realize the truth.
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The patch notes should definitely be updated, since they will eventually be used to introduce the much larger community to this nerf.
I would change the word "correctly" to "better" and drop "instead of getting locked into using a single power" in the pursuit of honesty.
This fix is NOT a panacea for Pet AI woes. As even my limited tests have shown me; many pets are still dumb as dirt and either ignore powers they should be using or misuse them. As an example of the former, the Oni typically doesn't use Fire Blast when fighting at range. An example of the latter: The Bruiser is probably the greatest beneficiary of the change, yet when in melee he still misuses the 3.83s cast time, counter-productive KB-inducing Hurl in preference to both Jab and Punch.
Hmmm... after pasting the suggested changes and re-reading that note, I think I'd rewrite that suggested note altogether.
<ul type="square">
Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet's powers will no longer be affected by any buffs, debuffs or enhancements. Recharge buffs, debuffs and enhancements will still affect the recharge rate of the power that summons the pet, but the recharge rate of the pet's own powers is unalterable. This change was necessary to fix issues with the Recharge Intensive Pet sets which brought to light an exploit allowing many pets to exceed intended levels of performance. This fix also prevents excessive Recharge buffs or debuffs from breaking the pet AI, allowing them to better cycle through their attacks. Pets that are affected: <append the list>[/list]
Anyway, that's my spin on it.
[Edit: I re-wrote that specifically to point out that part of this was to close off something the devs consider to be an exploit, and therefore wouldn't be included in the TR Patch Notes. I somehow managed to delete the paragraph stating that between preview and post.]
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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I really don't think I would be able to survive the level of stress some folks bring into their entertainment.
I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.
As a matter of fact, though I've been here since the end of I3, there have only been two power reductions that I ever really payed attention to. ED and the GDN. Even then, I ran a quick respec, and carried on like I always did.
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Q F Ever-lovin' T!!
I play this game (GAME!!!!!) to have fun and to take on the role of a comic book hero or villain. As long as I can beat up bad guys (or cause some mayhem), I'm happy. If something changes, I adapt and play on.
I have never believed that any "rebalancing" has "nerfed one of my characters into uselessness." I have never deleted thanks to any power change. I enjoy playing whole characters, and every single character is more than the sum of a few powers.
All this just seems like a silly thing to get one's undies in a twist about. It makes me wonder if the folks who obsess over every second of recharge and maximum efficiency have difficulty separating work and play. The things one does for entertainment are supposed to be fun. The things that are tedious or stressful should not be done for fun. If you are going to do something tedious and / or stressful, you should be getting paid for it in some way. I usually call this kind of activity "work."
Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.
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Maybe it is just me, but some people find using the system to maximize their characters as well as they can to be fun.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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I am baffled by the idea that Gun Drone is considered overpowered with SO-equivalent slotting. The usual opinion is that even with frankenslotted sets, it's at best very situational; many people recommend against taking it at all. (My default viewpoint on this is that of an Archery/Devices/Munitions Blaster, btw.)
This is a Tier 9 power with a 6 second interruptable casting time that is not reduceable, meaning that in practice it is impractical to impossible to us it in high-intensity combat; believe me I've tried to use it at Rikti ship raids, Rikti invasions, zombie invasions, Hami raid, etc.; it's almost always a waste of several seconds and then interrupted.
Worse yet, it costs a base of 39 End (that's 50% more than any other power I have, and more than double most of them), and you pay that in advance, even if it's interrupted. If you try it several times and keep getting interrupted, you've blown most of your End on nothing.
It has a duration of 90 seconds and a recharge of 180 seconds, which means that even *with* slotting 3 Recharge or equivalent you can't have it out all the time short of getting into very expensive and rare global +Recharge.
The SOs and Common IOs it takes are Acc, Dam, EndRed, Rech. The only set type it takes is Ranged Damage, which features... Acc, Dam, EndRed, and Rech. Typically, about half the available Ranged Damage pieces in a set boost Recharge.
If I want one of my normal ranged damage powers to do more damage, I slot up Dam until I start getting diminishing returns from ED, at which point the only obvious and affordable route is to start slotting up Rech to have it fire more often. I don't see why it is unreasonable to expect, using *exactly the same sets*, that it shouldn't work that way for the Gatling Gun on the Gun Drone. I'm even *more* baffled why the so-called Real Numbers are apparently lying to us. Why is it so difficult to report the numbers that the game is actually using, so we can make informed choices?
I acknowledge that it looks like we're stuck with this Pet Recharge "fix" due to buggy AI, but I expected it would be reasonable to get some sort of compensation for the significant reduction in utility of a power widely regarded as underperforming already. (Upping the base damage, increasing the number of ticks, or something.) To be told that Gun Drone is overpowered enough to *need* a significant reduction does not seem to match my experience, or that of the few other people I've seen with one.
Miuramir, Windchime, Sariel the Golden, Scarlet Antinomist...
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Ryu the fact is that some players don't see value of a pet that can target and fire at enemies independent of you. It's more damage, some can draw aggro, they don't use any of your endurance to attack, and they work when you are disabled (mezz'ed, caged, etc). But I'm more one of them. I <3 t my VS, Gun Turrent, Lighting Storms, et al.
You'll pryinig them from my dead, clenched fist. (And some will fight you even then 
)
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Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.
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Maybe it is just me, but some people find using the system to maximize their characters as well as they can to be fun.
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It's true, there are people who really enjoy that sort of thing.
Not me, but I'm not going to say that's bad for anyone else.
OTOH, constantly changing the characteristics and target goals makes for a continued requirement for maintenance for those who do want the "perfect" build. Personally, I feel that would be fun and maintain interest for such achievers, although I could be wrong.
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Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe it is just me, but some people find using the system to maximize their characters as well as they can to be fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, it's the monkey in us that likes to solve puzzles - there might be something good to eat in there!
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
People get so worked up about it because they *love* the game. If they didn't care about the game, they wouldn't not be complaining so loudly.
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But what about exemptions to this fix. Thats what most of us want to know about. We already know its possible for some exemptions because there have been reports that the defender lightning storm still behaves the same as on live as on test yet the controller/corrupter/mastermind version of the power is now uneffected by recharge. I do think at the very least if you are making the powers not take recharge any more and if they arent able to be targeted anyways then maybe you can up the damage or change the recharge itself. I just really hate for lightning storm to become worthless outside of boss/av fights.
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Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
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Weird, I specifically tested the Dom version of VS several months ago, and could not get any kind of visible recharge effect from any amount of sneaky IO +rech slotting.
I assumed it had been fixed quite a while ago.
I thought I tested LS and didn't see much effect there either..I'll have to double check on test when I get some time.
[edit: I've always had hasten on my LS users...so I probably just internalized that firing speed as the "base" firing speed...man, I'm dreading seeing the current firing speed. Heh.]
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