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If Pet's AI with -recharge causes major lag problem, then it should definitely be fixed.
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That was not the problem, that was the problem with what Castle said was the other solution. Which is, to take every power used by a pet, and have it in the code decide whether or not to use specific aspects of an Enhancement. Like, using the Dam part of a Dam/Rech IO, but not the Rech part.
That is the intended behavior, but because of the immense lag it would cause, it is not a workable solution.
K..... don't really notice the difference.... but then again I never knew about the Recharge thing and don't use IO's in my Plant/Storm, my Ill/Storm, or my Arch/dev....... I don't think they suck.... in fact I think they are pretty good for the most part... but I'm assuming y'all must have reached an uber "1-2 seconds makes a [censored]-load of difference) level..... 
I never really had the intention of doing that so I don't notice/don't care.... but I hardly think that my toons were "teh suck" because I didn't do it you guys' way...... I don't know... poss because I'm too busy having fun while trying to hit the max rather then ocding over it..... 
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1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.
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Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the caster's recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.
This change enforces an absolute rate of fire on all pets. It -is- a major change. It is not simply correcting something that was "not working as intended".
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Honest, curious question here: If having recharge slotted in Mind Link is acceptable by the devs, why doesn't it just accept recharge enhancements directly?
This leads to complicated and confusing scenarios like the one with the pets, where you can slot recharges into them and they get the benefit, but that's not working as intended so they change it.
I don't want to wake up one day and find that my ML recharge time is fixed at 240 seconds when I worked to have it perma (and I'm rather squishy without it being perma, considering low HP, no RES, no heal).
[/ QUOTE ]
I would not continue to believe that this is working as intended. Castle has stated out right that this is a "long standing bug" and there is no workable way to fix it. (Because as he said, it would introduce lag into the server) Not in regards to Mind Link specifically, but for any power you can slot something into it that it does not normally take with multiple effect IOs.
Maybe it will never be changed, maybe it will. But you are right to believe that you should not overly depend on this, as it could be nerfed, forcing you to respec. (With luck, though, Castle's statement that existing powers will not have their recharge time "locked" applies in this case. I would not depend on another solution never being found, though)
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This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
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1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.
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Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the caster's recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.
[/ QUOTE ]
From Castle, in the OP of this thread:
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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the casters recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Doing" and "intending to be doing" are two different things. Just because something is possible doesn't mean the devs intend for it to be possible. In fact, where the devs allow something in some way and don't allow it in another is a clear sign that the way in which it is allowed is not intended.
And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit. They are two independent mechanisms, and allowing the one does not necessarily allow the other.
In fact, it can probably be argued that either a pet should inherit a particular boost from its parent, OR it should be directly buffable, but not both. A Burn patch inherits a damage buff from its caster, but cannot be buffed by a Siphon Power. A Fire Imps damage can be buffed by a Siphon Power, but it does not inherit a Build Up from its caster.
Whether or not the former type of pet (psuedo-pet) should inherit Recharge is another argument, but true pets definately shouldn't inherit buffs from their caster, as long as they can be buffed separately.
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This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
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Then by all means lets make recharge effects no longer affect Blaster and Defender attacks as well. Because, hey, you'd still be blasting guys and killing guys.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit.
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In terms of external buffs this is generally correct, but there are a few self-buff powers that boost accuracy (Focused Accuracy, Targeting Drone for Scrappers, and Combat Training: Offensive).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then by all means lets make recharge effects no longer affect Blaster and Defender attacks as well. Because, hey, you'd still be blasting guys and killing guys.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
We should do it for everything as well since it is all irrelevant.
Hyperbole iz fun! 
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And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit.
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In terms of external buffs this is generally correct, but there are a few self-buff powers that boost accuracy (Focused Accuracy, Targeting Drone for Scrappers, and Combat Training: Offensive).
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't they boost to hit? They seem the same as Targetting Drone for Devices, and Tactics, respectively.
Again, the ability for tangible pets to be buffed externally has been in the game forever. Lightning Storm's inheritance of +recharge buffs was manually and deliberately added two years ago in I7. Lastly, LS doesn't accept the RIP sets.
While I can certainly believe that LS is firing far faster than the devs imagined it would, and I can certainly agree this could be unbalanced, it is not an unintended consequence and I cannot believe it was unnoticed.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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And buffing recharge is not the same as slotting for recharge. You can slot accuracy, but you can't buff accuracy, only to hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
In terms of external buffs this is generally correct, but there are a few self-buff powers that boost accuracy (Focused Accuracy, Targeting Drone for Scrappers, and Combat Training: Offensive).
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't they boost to hit? They seem the same as Targetting Drone for Devices, and Tactics, respectively.
[/ QUOTE ]
Focused Accuracy boosts both tohit and accuracy, same for Targeting Drone (the Devices version is +tohit only). CT:O boosts accuracy only. It used to be +tohit during the I12 beta but was found to be too strong and was changed.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
Whether or not the former type of pet (psuedo-pet) should inherit Recharge is another argument, but true pets definately shouldn't inherit buffs from their caster, as long as they can be buffed separately.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly the problem with this change. Even true pets will no longer have their attack rate boosted by anything, including being directly speed boosted by another character.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
[ QUOTE ]
K..... don't really notice the difference.... but then again I never knew about the Recharge thing and don't use IO's in my Plant/Storm, my Ill/Storm, or my Arch/dev....... I don't think they suck.... in fact I think they are pretty good for the most part... but I'm assuming y'all must have reached an uber "1-2 seconds makes a [censored]-load of difference) level.....
I never really had the intention of doing that so I don't notice/don't care.... but I hardly think that my toons were "teh suck" because I didn't do it you guys' way...... I don't know... poss because I'm too busy having fun while trying to hit the max rather then ocding over it.....
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of us have the intention of making our toons "uber" so you get this right. That is exactly what Inventions are for. This game is so easy that even Single Origins are good enough. Just because you think SOs are good enough, it doesn't mean you can take away my "fun" of customizing my toons.
People have been complaining about having nothing else to do at lvl 50 and IOs is a great way to add more gameplay. I enjoy making my Lightning Storm shoot 1-2s. And you are right that most of the time, you probably won't even notice the difference. And it is precisely this reason that I don't see why the dev needs to change it now.
How long ago was IO introduced? Am I to believe that the dev DID NOT know -recharge work with pets? If not, then I think the dev needs to spend more time PLAYING the game rather than datamining.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Then by all means lets make recharge effects no longer affect Blaster and Defender attacks as well. Because, hey, you'd still be blasting guys and killing guys.
[/ QUOTE ]
We should do it for everything as well since it is all irrelevant.
Hyperbole iz fun!
[/ QUOTE ]
While I appreciate the humor, it's still not getting the point across, apparently. 
I hate to keep repeating it, but...
When you slot an attack for recharge, you decrease the amount of time it takes for that attack to come up again. You do not make that attack fire twice instead of only once.
That's the difference between slotting a pet for recharge, and slotting the pet's powers for recharge.
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then by all means lets make recharge effects no longer affect Blaster and Defender attacks as well. Because, hey, you'd still be blasting guys and killing guys.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
We should do it for everything as well since it is all irrelevant.
Hyperbole iz fun!
[/ QUOTE ]
EXACTLY MY POINT. I'm engaging in exactly the same amount of hyperbole as the person claiming that since the power still exists in the game, that everything is fine and that nobody should be concerned. We are just using the hyperbole to amp up opposing positions: all changes are Doom VS all change are Nectar from the Devs.
But my actual point was to use hyperbole to show that hyberbole was already being applied to the situation by others.
Thank you.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Sooo...can we have /Kin MM's now? Please?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whether or not the former type of pet (psuedo-pet) should inherit Recharge is another argument, but true pets definately shouldn't inherit buffs from their caster, as long as they can be buffed separately.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly the problem with this change. Even true pets will no longer have their attack rate boosted by anything, including being directly speed boosted by another character.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASON from why psuedo-pets are being made immune to recharge.
Granted, true pets were not intended to never have their recharge buffed. However, it makes it easier to maintain the AI if this factor is eliminated. (I'm not going to say it fixes the AI issues, although from what I have read it has made the situation better)
True pets were NOT intended to have recharge effected by Recharge enhancements (because that effects how often they are summoned, instead) and they were not intended to inherit their parent's powers. (Because they are true pets and thus don't inherit) MM Henchmen may have been intended to slotted for Recharge, but this was removed because it was inconsistent. They were never intended to inherit from the MM. (Except those IOs which specifically apply to the pets, but those aren't part of the inheritance mechanism)
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While I can certainly believe that LS is firing far faster than the devs imagined it would, and I can certainly agree this could be unbalanced, it is not an unintended consequence and I cannot believe it was unnoticed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. At least if they would just say "we decided to nerf some stuff that has got out of control" I'd swallow my pill and move on. Oh, I'd still grumble now and then as an aside, but this affront would at least be retracted.
Of course, they may really believe it themselves, so then we are at an impasse, and the doom will continue until it becomes quasi forgotten by I17.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
Sooo...can we have /Kin MM's now? Please?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've said it before:
Before this change, I would have been indifferent at best to Kin MMs because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets (especially if you played a ranged set like Thugs or Bots). The main draw for Kinetics would be Speed Boost. Unfortunately the best aspect of that power will no longer work properly on pets in I14, so now I really couldn't care less if MMs get Kinetics. I'm hoping for Sonic or Cold, myself.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
True pets were NOT intended to have recharge effected by Recharge enhancements (because that effects how often they are summoned, instead) and they were not intended to inherit their parent's powers. (Because they are true pets and thus don't inherit)
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be perfectly happy to have set IOs with recharge not affect the power, so long as external and inheritable buffs still apply.
Now, if these things are internally inseparable, then they should ONLY modify the pets that need the AI adjustments, since the current state of affairs hasnt exactly been unbalancing the game, but it HAS been contributing to the fun in the game, and especially the "what do I do at level 50?" type fun.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
The main draw for Kinetics would be Speed Boost. Unfortunately the best aspect of that power will no longer work properly on pets in I14, so now I really couldn't care less if MMs get Kinetics. I'm hoping for Sonic or Cold, myself.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. However, I'd be wanting Thermal. I've wanted to be able to have Burning Undead Minions since Masterminds came out. Without needing a Thermal buddy, that is.
ZOMBIES ON FIRE! YES!
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
But my actual point was to use hyperbole to show that hyberbole was already being applied to the situation by others.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I hope my response to his post addressed the counter argument and not the hyperbole. Hyperbole is fine, as long as you do not introduce an assumption that does not apply. (Such as that slotting an attack for recharge is the same thing as having a pet fire more quickly)
If you are in fact not taking a side in the argument, but instead mocking the debate, I can appreciate that, too. I addressed the side you seemed to be taking, sorry if I got it wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge. Those Recharge enhancements have no effect on the powers belonging to those pets. The powers simply ignore any enhancements of the type Recharge.
However, set IOs make it possible to bypass that. When I slot a Decimation: Acc/End/Rech into Lightning Storm, that's not a Recharge enhancement, it's a *Damage* enhancement
[/ QUOTE ]
OH!!!!!! Thank you for that explanation, I think I finally understand the mechanic!
The problem is that you can tell a power not to respond to Recharge Enhancements, but not recharge provided by an Enhancement, specifically. If you told it not to respond to Acc/End/Rech, it would not respond to the Acc and End as well. Plus, that doesn't effect inherited recharge. The only other choice is to tell it not to respond to +recharge AT ALL. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If there were a way to allow recharge buffs, but not recharge enhancement (generically, not specifically) then that would work.
Of course, there is also the issue with pet AI, but that issue would be a lot easier to control if recharge were more controllable, and so much of it was not inherited in an unpredictable way. (If you could give a pet about 30% to 50% recharge and no more, say with a Unique IO, that would probably not seriously effect the AI)
What I wonder is why the IO is regarded as a Damage Enhancement and not a Recharge. Are all the IOs in a set treated as the same kind of Enhancement? Is there a coding reason for this? They obviously have to all be of the same Set IO type, to allow them to be slotted as a Set type, so maybe that overrides the normal Enhancement type. (In other words, they're not Damage Enhancements, they're Ranged Damage Set Enhancements)
As for Inherited Recharge, that's not literally an Enhancement either, so that can't be stopped by a "no Recharge Enhancement" flag on a power either. I was thinking of them as the same thing, but it's not.