[ QUOTE ]
I would be perfectly happy to have set IOs with recharge not affect the power, so long as external and inheritable buffs still apply.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I can't agree. I don't believe inheritable recharge should ever effect a pet. And that's because recharge is already allowing you to call up the pet more often. If the pet is naturally perma, then either increase its recharge, or don't allow it to be slotted for recharge at all. (Or allow you to summon multiples, which you often can)
Personally, if there is any way possible to remove Recharge from the inheritance code, I think that's what should be done. True pets can be externally buffed for recharge. Psuedo pets can be cast more often. I can't think of any other reason why recharge should be inherited. (Outside of just "I want to do more damage!") Find another way to fix the issue with IOs, and that will solve it.
At least with the AI problem, you can choose not to buff pets. I think the problem is that many MMs are slotting for their psuedo-pets, and that's giving their henchmen a lot more recharge than just what they'd get externally.
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1. Recharge from the caster was never intended to be passed to the pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Hasten, Speed Boost, Siphon Speed, and AM have passed the caster's recharge to summoned pets since approximately I7. Further, tangible pets (Singy, Imps) have been directly buffable by these same powers forever.
[/ QUOTE ]
From Castle, in the OP of this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine.
[/ QUOTE ]No thats just them changing the rules in the middle of the game again. Just like with the multiple instances of a pet. If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long? Thats why I say they are full of it this time. Normally I would let this kind of thing go but this is setting a precedent, at any given moment in time they can always say something was never intended just so they can nerf with not justifiable reason. At this point their word is meaningless because we were encouraged to use recharge,damage, accuracy buffs since issue 7 since that part of the technology was added to psuedo pets.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I'm for anything that makes the game better. My main toon is an Ice/Storm controller and in all honesty, I find storm very flashy and very unimpressive unless you love lots of aggro. If you don't keep your enemies rooted by your control powers it quickly gets out of hand and you have every mob aggroed on you and your team. I just hope that after this they might either make LS a larger AOE or increase the damage output, atleast then it will be somewhat useful. I couldn't even imagine playing the storm set on a defender with no way to mitigate the knockback with immoblizes and holds and in my opinion really isn't even a viable defender set. This may just be me and the way I play the set, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. It would be neat if they gave LS a damage over time component with a larger AOE as well, perhaps some hailstones as well as the lightning =) Just a thought. What I do know is that I will always love my Ice/Storm controller and will still play her but probably because she is my badge hunter. Just my opinion but it is a well founded opinion as at last check I had almost 1700 hours logged on her according to the citizens that you click on that tell you how long you've been on patrol =)
It's all good, I'll find a way to play her that is still fun, mostly because I love the toon's concept =)
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Whether or not the former type of pet (psuedo-pet) should inherit Recharge is another argument, but true pets definately shouldn't inherit buffs from their caster, as long as they can be buffed separately.
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That's exactly the problem with this change. Even true pets will no longer have their attack rate boosted by anything, including being directly speed boosted by another character.
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But that is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASON from why psuedo-pets are being made immune to recharge.
Granted, true pets were not intended to never have their recharge buffed. However, it makes it easier to maintain the AI if this factor is eliminated. (I'm not going to say it fixes the AI issues, although from what I have read it has made the situation better)
True pets were NOT intended to have recharge effected by Recharge enhancements (because that effects how often they are summoned, instead) and they were not intended to inherit their parent's powers. (Because they are true pets and thus don't inherit) MM Henchmen may have been intended to slotted for Recharge, but this was removed because it was inconsistent. They were never intended to inherit from the MM. (Except those IOs which specifically apply to the pets, but those aren't part of the inheritance mechanism)
[/ QUOTE ]
But the fix to the psuedopets is to make all pets and psuedopets immune to all recharge effects. (With the momentary oversight of Defender LS, which is still capable of firing faster on test.)
Fire Imps, like LS, have one and only one attack. It seems unlikely that they had an AI issue (other than their natural crazy agro ideas). Previously, the imps' attack rate could be boosted by the caster or any other teammate with +recharge powers. Now, they cannot.
To me, the scope of the change seems excessive. Of course, YMMV. :shrug:
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
Righter,
We've all seen his comment. Some people disagree that Lightning Storm was never meant to have their recharge altered, because it was a selling point of Issue 7. So, at the very least, it was promoted in patch notes and dev forum posts. So, the quote you posted strikes of Retcon.
But, you know, I wish instead of saying "never intended" they'd say "we changed our minds". I can swallow that better.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Righter,
We've all seen his comment. Some people disagree that Lightning Storm was never meant to have their recharge altered, because it was a selling point of Issue 7. So, at the very least, it was promoted in patch notes and dev forum posts. So, the quote you posted strikes of Retcon.
But, you know, I wish instead of saying "never intended" they'd say "we changed our minds". I can swallow that better.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
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The CopyCreatorMods (or Pet Inheritance) code was originally written so that things like hitting "Build Up" then casting "Burn" would cause the Burn to do more damage. To my knowledge, most pet powers were set to only accept Damage, Accuracy and/or Status Effect mods. Recharge time was never specifically allowed for pet powers. This happened in Issue 7.
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long?
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle clearly stated why it was allowed to go on so long. The only way to fix it was to introduce huge amounts of lag into the game, and that was clearly unacceptable. So the only way to solve the problem was to kludge around it, to not allow Recharge to be slotted, or have the pets ignore the Recharge slotting. (And where that failed to catch the recharge was where they kept having to come up with new kludges)
Ultimately, the second most unacceptable solution was decided to be acceptable because it helped with the henchmen AI problems. It caused problems as well, it caused true pets to be unbuffable, and also made them immune to debuffs. (Which is a good thing, for player pets, at least in PvE) But they can't introduce the lag, they can't drop every IO that gives Recharge, and they can't leave things as they are.
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Again, the ability for tangible pets to be buffed externally has been in the game forever. Lightning Storm's inheritance of +recharge buffs was manually and deliberately added two years ago in I7. Lastly, LS doesn't accept the RIP sets.
While I can certainly believe that LS is firing far faster than the devs imagined it would, and I can certainly agree this could be unbalanced, it is not an unintended consequence and I cannot believe it was unnoticed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine.
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The CopyCreatorMods (or Pet Inheritance) code was originally written so that things like hitting "Build Up" then casting "Burn" would cause the Burn to do more damage. To my knowledge, most pet powers were set to only accept Damage, Accuracy and/or Status Effect mods. Recharge time was never specifically allowed for pet powers. This happened in Issue 7.
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine. 
Hasten or speed boost on the summoner has transferred to LS, boosting its rate of fire for two years. It may still have been an error. But somone did set the flags on the power(s) in question to allow the transfer of +recharge buffs to LS.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
[/ QUOTE ]
We aren't. That is exactly the post I am referring to.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know why it isn't being considered that when Lightning Storm happened to inherit Recharge in issue 7 that it was a bug, much like it not getting the new immune to +recharge code which was just introduced right now. There were not as many players like Arcanaville looking over the dev's changes and making sure that individual powers and typos were not being missed. And there are pets that DON'T inherit recharge from their parents, (and do inherit, like, damage) right?
Of course, that makes me wonder why Recharge CAN'T be made so that it isn't inherited at all. But maybe this is where the difference between a Recharge Enhancement and a Dam/Recharge Enhancement comes in again. Maybe the inheritance code can't drop the second one, so pets that aren't inheriting recharge buffs from their parents are still inheriting Dam/Rech IOs.
Man, this is complicated... 
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If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long?
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle clearly stated why it was allowed to go on so long. The only way to fix it was to introduce huge amounts of lag into the game, and that was clearly unacceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lightning Storm could have been fixed very simply at any time since I7, by making the changes on the power that were just made (and are not yet made to Defender LS).
However, the PET AI issue could have been solved by introducing huge amounts of lag into the game, which would not have been acceptable.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
[ QUOTE ]
However, the PET AI issue could have been solved by introducing huge amounts of lag into the game, which would not have been acceptable.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, no, no, no. The lag would have been introduced by fixing the issue where you can slot Dam/Rech into a power that doesn't take Recharge. (And possibly that the Dam/Rech is inherited by the pet when Rech isn't)
Here, let me add part of Castle's quote:
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Meanwhile, we have a long standing 'bug' that we cannot fix: Say you have a Damage power that for whatever reason doesn't allow Endurance Reduction. If you slot an enhancement (say, a Hammi-O) which does both, both effects are applied to the power, despite the fact that the power is not supposed to accept Endurance Reduction. We pretty much have let that become "by design" since it cannot be fixed.
[...] The alternative, as I understand it, would be to fix that long standing bug I said we couldnt fix. That would result in up to a 50% increase in server CPU time in the Powers computations, though and that simply isn't a workable solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, he's referring back to the first paragraph and saying the second is the fix for it.
Although I wonder if the lag would not be so bad if ONLY recharge was tested for and excluded, not every single effect that an Enhancement can have.
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Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
[/ QUOTE ]
We aren't. That is exactly the post I am referring to.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
Honest question; why would they lie?
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Honest, curious question here: If having recharge slotted in Mind Link is acceptable by the devs, why doesn't it just accept recharge enhancements directly?
This leads to complicated and confusing scenarios like the one with the pets, where you can slot recharges into them and they get the benefit, but that's not working as intended so they change it.
I don't want to wake up one day and find that my ML recharge time is fixed at 240 seconds when I worked to have it perma (and I'm rather squishy without it being perma, considering low HP, no RES, no heal).
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I would not continue to believe that this is working as intended. Castle has stated out right that this is a "long standing bug" and there is no workable way to fix it. (Because as he said, it would introduce lag into the server) Not in regards to Mind Link specifically, but for any power you can slot something into it that it does not normally take with multiple effect IOs.
Maybe it will never be changed, maybe it will. But you are right to believe that you should not overly depend on this, as it could be nerfed, forcing you to respec. (With luck, though, Castle's statement that existing powers will not have their recharge time "locked" applies in this case. I would not depend on another solution never being found, though)
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That's my concern: that they'll find out how to change it and effectively nerf the power saying that the recharge slotting was "never intended."
Castle said even in the first post of this thread:
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Meanwhile, we have a long standing 'bug' that we cannot fix: Say you have a Damage power that for whatever reason doesn't allow Endurance Reduction. If you slot an enhancement (say, a Hammi-O) which does both, both effects are applied to the power, despite the fact that the power is not supposed to accept Endurance Reduction. We pretty much have let that become "by design" since it cannot be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, "by design" is subject to change. Six to 12 months from now they could figure out a way to change it and decide it's no longer by design and make it unenhanceable, even though another poster said they were fully aware of its effect all through beta and had the chance THEN to flag it as unenhanceable if they had the desire.
I suppose I'm just paranoid, especially since my Widow has become my favorite character, and flagging ML was unenhanceable would dramatically increase my squishability (dropping me from 47% DEF to about 31%).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long?
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle clearly stated why it was allowed to go on so long. The only way to fix it was to introduce huge amounts of lag into the game, and that was clearly unacceptable. So the only way to solve the problem was to kludge around it, to not allow Recharge to be slotted, or have the pets ignore the Recharge slotting. (And where that failed to catch the recharge was where they kept having to come up with new kludges)
Ultimately, the second most unacceptable solution was decided to be acceptable because it helped with the henchmen AI problems. It caused problems as well, it caused true pets to be unbuffable, and also made them immune to debuffs. (Which is a good thing, for player pets, at least in PvE) But they can't introduce the lag, they can't drop every IO that gives Recharge, and they can't leave things as they are.
[/ QUOTE ]No what I am saying is why even allow psuedo pets to get recharge from the caster if it was never meant to be, thats what I am saying. Why wait 7 issues to address this if it was never meant to be. Thats what I have a problem with. They could have just as easily fixed it that many issues ago if it was truely a problem. If this change goes thru as is with no further tweaks to pets its just going to open the door for them to start lying to us again like how Jack did in the old days. How fair is it for them to change the rules in mid game like this especially when they encouraged us to play this way. It makes no sense.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
They could have just as easily fixed it that many issues ago if it was truely a problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do not know that. Standard Code Rant applies.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
[/ QUOTE ]
We aren't. That is exactly the post I am referring to.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
Honest question; why would they lie?
[/ QUOTE ]Thats the million dollar question we are trying to get the real answer to. I still think there is more to this change than what they are telling us. Because its completely retarded to nerf powers that are already subpar.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They could have just as easily fixed it that many issues ago if it was truely a problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do not know that. Standard Code Rant applies.
[/ QUOTE ]Its called you just delete the part of the code that applies to recharge. If they can put it in they sure as hell can delete it. They could have just as easily done the fix and said pets inherrent just damage, accuracy buffs and not even include recharge in the listing at all.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
[/ QUOTE ]
We aren't. That is exactly the post I am referring to.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
Honest question; why would they lie?
[/ QUOTE ]Thats the million dollar question we are trying to get the real answer to. I still think there is more to this change than what they are telling us. Because its completely retarded to nerf powers that are already subpar.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course you do, because you're crazy and think there's always an ulterior motive.
[ QUOTE ]
Lightning Storm could have been fixed very simply at any time since I7, by making the changes on the power that were just made (and are not yet made to Defender LS).
[/ QUOTE ]
1) The devs may have considered it unacceptable to make such a change to only one, specific power.
2) The devs may have considered it unacceptable to make that change globally to all pet powers, until they realized it would also help with the AI problem. In other words, the solution was considered as bad (possibly in a good way, in that it would prevent pets from being debuffed) as introducing the lag.
Personally, though, I feel that it probably would have been correct to just make all psuedo-pets (not pets) immune to any kind of recharge. Not that that should be needed if they prevent it every other way, but again, psuedo-pets don't need to fire faster because their caster fires faster, the caster is able to fire the pseudo-pet faster.
That solution may not have been thought of, though, or just believed to be heavy handed. (Kind of like when you set a test in code for a condition you know should always be true, you only double check because if there's a bug in your code you don't want to crash the system)
Did I just read "Auto Turret" and "Too Powerful" in the same sentence?
Sneaky you, you edited in the quote from Castle after I went looking for it myself!
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Again, we tried some things, but ultimately, the change that is on the Training Room now ended up being the only viable fix. The alternative, as I understand it, would be to fix that long standing bug I said we couldnt fix. That would result in up to a 50% increase in server CPU time in the Powers computations, though and that simply isn't a workable solution.
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You are correct that the OP does state that fixing the Pet AI by fixing the multi-aspect slotting bug would greatly increase CPU load. Doh! Reading comprehension FTW!
I suppose that if this change had been applied only to pets with AI problems, we'd have a different subset of players throwing fits.
The other reason this bugs me is that in the real world, I work in software, primarily in QA. I find and/or design creative solutions to many of our technical challenges, either through work-arounds, code refactoring, or feature extension. And while I do believe the devs are a great team who do fantastic work, a small voice in the back of my head screams at me to go study the code and find a better solution.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
[ QUOTE ]
Its called you just delete the part of the code that applies to recharge. If they can put it in they sure as hell can delete it. They could have just as easily done the fix and said pets inherrent just damage, accuracy buffs and not even include recharge in the listing at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that we don't know what code can be easily changed and what is currently "off limits" except in cases of emergency. A lot of what the devs do is editing tables and scripts. This change, for instance, is just a bunch of flags on the powers in the game's data files. No code is being changed to make this happen.
Probably, recharge should never have been inherited in the first place. It was coded that way, and then the devs went around afterwards and added a bunch of scripts after the fact that goes back on what was code. It's bad, and it's ugly, and it's a kludge, but it's what these people do. They do it all the time, every day, in every release. At times, they are no happier with the code they've inherited than we are.
Would it be cool if they went in and removed the recharge from the inheritance? Yeah, same as the change that was suggested would increase the lag, if that could be made to not be so bad. That's likely a code change, too. On the other hand, would such a change take a lot longer than I14? Oh, yeah...
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Sneaky you, you edited in the quote from Castle after I went looking for it myself!
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I'm sorry, I intended to imply that I would go get the quote, then edit my post. I decided while writing it I wanted to quote it, but didn't have it available to copy. Sorry.
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And while I do believe the devs are a great team who do fantastic work, a small voice in the back of my head screams at me to go study the code and find a better solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, been there, done that. The only reason I'm not as active as Arcanaville is I can't seem to find the time.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, the ability for tangible pets to be buffed externally has been in the game forever. Lightning Storm's inheritance of +recharge buffs was manually and deliberately added two years ago in I7. Lastly, LS doesn't accept the RIP sets.
While I can certainly believe that LS is firing far faster than the devs imagined it would, and I can certainly agree this could be unbalanced, it is not an unintended consequence and I cannot believe it was unnoticed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis mine.
[ QUOTE ]
The CopyCreatorMods (or Pet Inheritance) code was originally written so that things like hitting "Build Up" then casting "Burn" would cause the Burn to do more damage. To my knowledge, most pet powers were set to only accept Damage, Accuracy and/or Status Effect mods. Recharge time was never specifically allowed for pet powers. This happened in Issue 7.
Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emphasis also mine.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA