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Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?
[/ QUOTE ]*blink*
So...if something can't solo the STF, it's perfectly fine and needs no adjustments? That's the only benchmark for power you think there should be?
*blinkblink*
...you've left me speechless.
[/ QUOTE ]Thats was just an extreme example and you know that. What I am trying to do is get an honest response from them. I want to know exactly what did they intend for those powers. What are those powers doing that so damaging to the game that they have to be gutted in this way.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Castle has posted explicitly about mind.. It's something different that he's trying with it. And it is working as he intended.
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Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.
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Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.
[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean statistically significant? Its either you know its going to effect recharge or it isnt. You dont need datamining to know that. Just what exactly were you guys shooting for on this? Is it that you all didnt expect or want it be effected by IOs and +recharge powers but having it just effected by +recharge powers was ok? Are you saying the only way to fix it was to just to disallow all recharge instead of just saying it can just gain only the buffs on the caster? All the datamining did was just prove the powers were subpar and the main way people got past that was with all the extra slotting. To me it would make sense to fix the powers in addition to this fix to all pets you are doing. But I got the feeling the datamining is saying the power is overpowered.
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It means they knew that it was happening. But didn't know how much of an impact it would have on the game as a whole.
"Pets recharge is affected? Eh, it'll be fine"
*one datamine later*
"HOLY CRAP, look at these numbers!"
Though perhaps not QUITE like that. You get the idea
[/ QUOTE ]Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?
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Overthrow the game and name you as the leader?
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, 
You all discovered the nemesis plot. Seriously though I would sooner be able to accept what you just said for an answer before I will believe LS, VS and GD are overpowered pets.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Now, you combine the two things...and suddenly, pet powers which were never meant to have recharge be altered (Lightning Storm is a great example here) are firing off much faster than intended. For a long time, we didn't notice, but then we introduced the Recharge Intensive Pet IO Sets and suddenly HUGE amounts of Recharge were available to certain pets.
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I'm finding more and more that I'm surprised by what *is* and *is not* intended in these past few months. This is as much a shock to me as the kinetics bypassing suppression change was.
It is what it is, I suppose...but thanks for the explanation, Castle.
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If Pet's AI with -recharge causes major lag problem, then it should definitely be fixed.
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You misunderstand: The Up to 50% increase wasn't pet powers. It was EVERY power, from every entity in the game -- it would require sandwiching a new check between calculating all Attribute alterations and applying those alterations in the powers system in general. So every single power in the game just because more CPU intensive, reducing the number of powers that can be processed at any given time. Things like the Zombie Apocalypse or Rikti Invasion would be horrendously affected. Hammi raids might need to be redone again.
That simply isn't a viable solution, despite it being the proper 'code' solution. Oh, it would also eliminate the ability for players to increase the recharge time of powers like Mind Link which don't normally accept recharge enhancements via Hammi-O's or Set IOs (Hasten and Speed Boost would still work, though.)
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Here is a tough follow-up question. Let's just say this "change" is a done deal (sounds like it right now). Are there any plans to revisit pets again (and again? lol)? Assuming Global Recharge Reduction VS Pet's Recharge are not very balanced.
Here is simple example (maybe too simple). Assuming Blaster does 1500 dmg during 20s. With good Global Recharge, he now hits 2000 dmg under 20s. Merc MM does 1500 dmg (with debuffs like /Poison) too and with -recharge, Merc could reach 1800 dmg (that's a stretch I know!) but with the new change, Merc MM is stuck at 1500 dmg since no sets can increase debuff value (or MM needs to sacrifice support with personal attacks to make up the loss of -recharge). Do you get my point?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
[/ QUOTE ]But the ability for pets to inherrent hasten wasnt working as intended? I dont get that because we were specifically encouraged to use that for psuedo pets. How is it all of a sudden not working as intended?
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I don't think it's even been working as intended. As Castle posted, to fix it would increase power processing on the server by 50%. That is a huge amount when multipled by the hundred of power calculations the server does per minute.
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Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?
[/ QUOTE ]*blink*
So...if something can't solo the STF, it's perfectly fine and needs no adjustments? That's the only benchmark for power you think there should be?
*blinkblink*
...you've left me speechless.
[/ QUOTE ]Thats was just an extreme example and you know that. What I am trying to do is get an honest response from them. I want to know exactly what did they intend for those powers. What are those powers doing that so damaging to the game that they have to be gutted in this way.
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Yeah, You all discovered the nemesis plot. Seriously though I would sooner be able to accept what you just said for an answer before I will believe LS, VS and GD are overpowered pets.
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See, I don't think they said they were "overpowered" And I don't think they believe that. It's that they were operating erratically. And the way it was operating made it more powerful then it normally would be. In that sense it's "overpowered." Yes.
If they left them this way though, under the assumption that removing the bug would leave them underpowered. Wouldn't that be balancing them around a bug?
Wouldn't it be better to remove the bug and then balance proper later?
I believe that's the Dev's position.
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Honest question; why would they lie?
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Because they are human. However, I didnt say they lied. They could also be mistaken, as could I.
I do remember the recharge inheritance and buff inheritance and the like being mentioned in the patch notes when it went into effect. When that patch went live, I knew because of the patch notes. I did little else aside from running around, eating as many reds as I could, clicking hasten, and then letting fly with Cages, LS and Tornado.
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Issue 7 patch note 06-06-2006
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Many Location based powers (Such as Rain of Fire and Blizzard) can now be affected by the casters Buffs (for example, using Build Up will now increase the damage of Blizzard).
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I went through each pacth note between I7 and I8, there is nothing further. Certainly no specific mention of recharge inheritance.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Again why does it even matter, its not like storm defenders are soloing the STF or something. I could see if that was the case but I seriously doubt a single storm defender is doing that right now. What so significant about these powers? Maybe I am just using them wrong or something I cant see how they can be leveraged to the point of soloing lvl 54 AVs. Just what exactly are the devs afraid that LS, VS, Gun Drone are going to do?
[/ QUOTE ]*blink*
So...if something can't solo the STF, it's perfectly fine and needs no adjustments? That's the only benchmark for power you think there should be?
*blinkblink*
...you've left me speechless.
[/ QUOTE ]Thats was just an extreme example and you know that. What I am trying to do is get an honest response from them. I want to know exactly what did they intend for those powers. What are those powers doing that so damaging to the game that they have to be gutted in this way.
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Yeah, You all discovered the nemesis plot. Seriously though I would sooner be able to accept what you just said for an answer before I will believe LS, VS and GD are overpowered pets.
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See, I don't think they said they were "overpowered" And I don't think they believe that. It's that they were operating erratically. And the way it was operating made it more powerful then it normally would be. In that sense it's "overpowered." Yes.
If they left them this way though, under the assumption that removing the bug would leave them underpowered. Wouldn't that be balancing them around a bug?
Wouldn't it be better to remove the bug and then balance proper later?
I believe that's the Dev's position.
[/ QUOTE ]Well if they had just came out and say hey guys these powers are bugged but underperforming. We will buff them at a later time. Sure people would be mad but thats a hell of alot easier to deal with than what we are getting now. I am fairly confident that once this goes live those sets wont see a real buff for many years to come. We all know how long it takes for changes around here. Look at defiance, look at war mace, look at ice melee, look at invulnerability, look at the patron powers.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Something to majorly bear in mind. The powers are already balance in regard to their currently intended performance. The leaked Reacharge altereed their performance.
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1) Gun Drone has a really large Endurance cost, is interruptible, and takes a very long while to set down, which makes is a between-combat power only. At least Recharge is useful for it because it's not permanent. Would you consider lowering its End cost to about 30, and making it a faster summons and hopefully not interruptible?
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I woun't mind seeing this myself. The interrupt time means more time I can't resummon in combat.
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2) VS does not benefit from Recharge now since it's perma out of the box. End cost and animation time seems reasonable. Would you consider shortening its lifespan to about 45 seconds, and speeding up its fire rate so that it does the same damage over its lifetime? That way slotting up Recharge in it makes a bit of sense, right now since it doesn't stack, that's wasted slotting.
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Rechage still makes since as you can get multiples out. Most people don't bother with the power or just 4 slotting is an leave it be.
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3) Lightning Storm is on a pretty long recharge, and supposedly balanced around doing close to its full damage, yet its fire rate is too slow to make it worth the End cost in anything but a boss/AV fight. Would you be willing to lower its End cost by about 20% so that it's not a waste to summon it for other fights, and also to give it an "alpha strike" capability by giving it a 1-use Chain Induction attack when its first summoned? That way its overall long-term DPS will hardly be affected, but it will become more useful when summoned for a single small fight.
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Lightning Storm's potential can be increased greatly with having the +RECH in. My /Storm Controllers cranks out a tremendous about of damage with Lighting Storm and Tornado. You just need to negate some aspects of the two powers: KB. It's an Earth Controllers by the way. I spam Stone Cages every times it's up. Critter's don't move unless I want them to move. With no KB, LS and Tornado shreds spawns. Unless I got 6+ critters in a spawn, its too boring otherwise.
And when I allow critters to move, it's because I want lighting Storm and Tornado to keep critter away. Sometimes there's too many critter even for me to handle. I know, I know. Shocking but true. The KB, Stun and Fear of those two give me a another level of control. Kinda of nice for a Controller, no?
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At first, I thought that the nerf to Lightning Storm and the others was an unforeseen consequence of fixing Pet AI, and so I was hoping the Devs might compensate by increasing Lightning Storm's base striking frequency. Then came Castle's post. So while this may be therapeutic to post, it will have zero effect on anything.
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It's not actually necessary to be quite so pessimistic. While Lightning Storm and Voltaic Sentinel may not be the strongest powers in the world, the ability to effectively square the effectiveness of Recharge put in them (whether IOs or not) may have contributed to data that exaggerates their usefulness. So if any pets NEED a buff, it will be after this change that such a need will come out.
In other words, the devs didn't fix this issue because it would have been a problem to fix, and thus they left it alone as "okay". However, they didn't buff those powers either, except for a couple of changes to VS very recently. Now that the ability to leverage recharge for these pets is gone, they can work on buffing the pets so they are more attractive.
Personally, I feel VS is just fine as it is, it was great when leveraged, and I felt it was fine just using it as I did. Lightning Storm I can't say, but instead of making it deal more damage, I would like to see it drop a massive debuff in the area of the storm, which will give it a constant effect independent of the occasional lightning strikes. Honestly, I thought that's what it always did, I'm actually shocked it's nothing but a damage pet with some minor control powers. It's doesn't seem to me like what a "storm" should be able to do for you.
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I went through each pacth note between I7 and I8, there is nothing further. Certainly no specific mention of recharge inheritance.
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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No thats just them changing the rules in the middle of the game again. Just like with the multiple instances of a pet. If it wasnt meant to be then why let it go on for so long? Thats why I say they are full of it this time. Normally I would let this kind of thing go but this is setting a precedent, at any given moment in time they can always say something was never intended just so they can nerf with not justifiable reason. At this point their word is meaningless because we were encouraged to use recharge,damage, accuracy buffs since issue 7 since that part of the technology was added to psuedo pets.
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The reason why it's not an instantly changed thing is because it takes time to make *code* changes into the game. There is a finite about of resources they have for updating the game. So they have to weight those changes against all of the other changes and additions they want to make to the game. And then go through their internal testing, QA, beta testing, open testing and then live deployment.
I always wonder what else is coming down the pipeline that they've neglected to properly data mine, and how significant a change will they implement to fix the "problem?"
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[color= orange]While you could always slot powers like Lightning Storm and Fire Imps with Recharge enhancements, that Recharge did not carry over to the attacks belonging to the summoned pets. That situation did not occur until i9 (in some cases) or i11 (in other cases), when you were able to "sneak Recharge through" using set enhancements (that were not technically "Recharge enhancements") with Recharge in them.[/color]
The information in the Combat Numbers window is generally reliable (if you know how to read it), but when you're looking at reported Recharge rates you're actually using a "Power Info" window, and those are unfortunately not always reliable, especially when it comes to things like Recharge. Just look at the reported Recharge for a power, activate Hasten, and see if the number changes (it does not). On the flip-side, [u]look at a pet power slotted with regular Recharge enhancements, and see if the reported Recharge rate changes when you change that slotting. It does, [color= yellow]but the *actual* Recharge rate does not[/color].[u] Basically, the Power Info for pet powers always gives false positives for Recharge slotting, so it's not in itself a way to notice that slotted Recharge has in some cases been carried over to pet powers.
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Yeah, when I slot common recharge enhancements on my Fire Imps, the Combat Window would report enhanced recharge rates for their one power. I never noticed if they were attacking faster or not, though, but wasn't it the case for LS as well? Or LS bolts were not affected by recharge slotting but only by the player's global recharge bonuses (including Hasten)? Given recharge enhancements (IOs or not) were "enhancing" (in Combat Window numbers) Fire Imps' attack rate, one would figure it would enhance LS bolts' recharge as well, which could lead to the assumption that recharge being carried over to pet powers was, in a general sense, "working as intended," and hence they could invest their bazillions of inf on slotting for recharge. The only exception would be MM pets, which powers, by design, do not accept recharge slotting, except through one purple set.
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[color= orange]Orange[/color] part re-added by me.
[color= yellow]Yellow[/color] emphasis mine.
Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge. Those Recharge enhancements have no effect on the powers belonging to those pets. The powers simply ignore any enhancements of the type Recharge.
However, set IOs make it possible to bypass that. When I slot a Decimation: Acc/End/Rech into Lightning Storm, that's not a Recharge enhancement, it's a *Damage* enhancement (that just happens to improve Recharge, and not Damage), and thus Lightning Storm's Lightning power happily accepts its bonuses, which happens to include Recharge. Because of that, you can use (set) enhancements to improve the Recharge of Lightning Storm's Lightning power, even though that power is intended to ignore all Recharge enhancements.
*That* is what they're trying to fix here.
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Wonder if they are fixing the display window? or if people are just supposed to know that it does nothing.
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That simply isn't a viable solution, despite it being the proper 'code' solution. Oh, it would also eliminate the ability for players to increase the recharge time of powers like Mind Link which don't normally accept recharge enhancements via Hammi-O's or Set IOs (Hasten and Speed Boost would still work, though.)
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Ouch. I find myself somewhat glad that this would have such horrendous side effects.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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BTW, somewhere during all these exchanges my caffine has kicked in. I hope my earlier posts did not seem excessively cranky....
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Possibly, but after a few moments I picked up on your actual tone.
And while the SoW point is a valid one, it's also kind of funny. Heck, I'm not even sure I'm right, but I thought it was likely enough that I didn't need my usual "I think this is the way it is" disclaimer. 
New code, though, that the devs have even promised they will avoid using. Now THAT is funny...
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Sooo...can we have /Kin MM's now? Please?
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I've said it before:
Before this change, I would have been indifferent at best to Kin MMs because of the difficulty of leveraging Fulcrum Shift on all your pets (especially if you played a ranged set like Thugs or Bots). The main draw for Kinetics would be Speed Boost. Unfortunately the best aspect of that power will no longer work properly on pets in I14, so now I really couldn't care less if MMs get Kinetics. I'm hoping for Sonic or Cold, myself.
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/Sonic would be kool for sure.
But as far as SB being the main reason for /Kin, I doubt it. They should still get the +movement which will help, but FS hits around the target and the caster so very easily positioned to get all ur pets imho (can hit both melee and ranged at once). Plus Siphon power and ID, it will be a great set for MMs : )
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Well if they had just came out and say hey guys these powers are bugged but underperforming. We will buff them at a later time. Sure people would be mad but thats a hell of alot easier to deal with than what we are getting now. I am fairly confident that once this goes live those sets wont see a real buff for many years to come. We all know how long it takes for changes around here. Look at defiance, look at war mace, look at ice melee, look at invulnerability, look at the patron powers.
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To be fair, the devs can't really tell if they're underpowered or not until they fix them. If some people are spamming massively recharge-boosted pseudopets while others are using no recharge boosts then the datamining will be all over the place... once the bug is fixed the devs can get a more accurate view of how well they perform when used as intended.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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[...] The alternative, as I understand it, would be to fix that long standing bug I said we couldnt fix. That would result in up to a 50% increase in server CPU time in the Powers computations, though and that simply isn't a workable solution.
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See, he's referring back to the first paragraph and saying the second is the fix for it.
Although I wonder if the lag would not be so bad if ONLY recharge was tested for and excluded, not every single effect that an Enhancement can have.
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I don't know their code, but as a rule coding only for Recharge would only be a specific case of the general solution. That means it might save a few lines of code and a few processor cycles, it won't shave near enough from the 50% to be worth attempting it.
so is anything being done to rectify the nerf by proxy effect on power sets such as cold domination, ice melee, ice blast, ect... who's MAIN form of midigation IS -recharge debuff ???
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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.
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Makes me wonder if psuedo-pets inherit the defense and resistance of their parent as well.
If so, then it is probably hidden by making all such pets intangible and unable to be attacked, thus defense is irrelevant to them.
It seems more logical to copy over damage, accuracy, maybe end recovery as well, but maybe it is an all or nothing thing. You clone a parent, and its attributes are just duplicated.
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so is anything being done to rectify the nerf by proxy effect on power sets such as cold domination, ice melee, ice blast, ect... who's MAIN form of midigation IS -recharge debuff ???
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Most enemy pets will NOT be immune to debuff.
This only effects player pets and those pets critters summon that are identical to player pets. (So you might want to be more cautious than usual when running a mission in the MA)
If no pet powers can be affected by recharge buffs, does that mean that all pet powers were balanced by this when they were designed? Powers available to players can enhance effect (damage, heal, mez, etc) and recharge. Simply enhancing both by +100% yields a theoretical 300% increase in effectiveness. If we no longer allow the recharge to be there, the increase can only be 100%.
From a players perspective, a pets powers are merely an extension of their own, with no documentation stating otherwise in game (that I found at least). From what I've seen in the past, effects that cannot be enhanced for technical reasons, are simply inflated to make up for this, like +/-DMG buffs.
In the end, I'll be happy to see if this fixes my AI woes. So tired am I of seeing my jounin stand around doing nothing with my smoke flash, even though they have 4 attacks to cycle, and should be able to chain. On that note, I won't expect this change to fix jounin from using hide, then placate while smoke flashed. Baby steps.
Freeedom
H: Victra Defile (Rad/Dark) & Hot Hits (Fire/SD)
V: Spike Cream (NW) & Crescent Wind (Nin/Storm)
Sub Hero Inc ARC: 1541
--If you don't like what I have to say, it was probably a typo you are refering to.
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Reports from a friend with ninjas and another with a necro claim that both of their toons are performing better with what you call a nerf.
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Really? Reports I've been reading say Fly Trap and Jounin are still not cycling their attacks correctly on test.
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Jounin haven't been cycling their attack now on the Live Servers. My pre-level 32 Jounin like to use Soaring Dragon multiple times in a row. In fact, I think that character is still 22-. No SO's, just DOs. no IO Set bonuses at all.