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Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.
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Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.
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I <3 datamining and the two year turn around time. Luckily this game has had a long lifespan (and will hopefully continue to). If you ever work on a faster moving project in the future I hope the team utilizes something that has a little faster turnaround time.
Actually in light of actual competition entering soon I hope you guys come up with something that allows for faster turnaround time because 1.5-2 years isn't going to be acceptable as each competitor cranks off things to draw in customers.
Just a thought regarding how business works because soon you guys will really be playing the business game against direct competition. I look forward to it as I hope this team really steps up its performance and good things result.
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they can't leave things as they are.
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Hmm, can't they? I think that's really a matter of opinion.
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Yeah, but it's their opinion, so unfortunately it carries more weight than the rest of us. They are also getting paid for it and encouraging sales of it, which despite all the threats to quit over this, seems to make them lean towards continuing to fix issues they see as a problem.
Note that the devs HAVE NOT left this problem alone, they have been constantly breaking the RIP sets trying to get them to work around this known bug. They can't just "leave it as it is", they will continue to try to come up with a solution until they either do finally find one (which they seem to be saying they have) or they drop RIP sets from the game entirely.
Which do you prefer?
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Dropping RIP sets of course... One can work around not having them with other slotting options. I can't work around not being able to take advantage of some of my better secondary powers on those pets.
In this particular case, IOs have taken precedence over at least two power-sets (rad and kin, any others?) that's just not acceptable considering they're supposed to be optional content.
I forgot to add, the fact that you can't debuff pet recharge anymore. That sucks for some powers that do that too. Also to get around a weakness very much exposed by IOs
--
Mu
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Rechage still makes since as you can get multiples out. Most people don't bother with the power or just 4 slotting is an leave it be.
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No. You can't.
Controller Pets, Dark Miasma/Dark Servant and Electrical Blast/Voltaic Sentinel can no longer 'stack'.
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This does not apply to ALL pets. In fact, it does not, in general, apply to pets that don't already have an unlimited duration. It does not apply to Lightning Storm, Tornado, Gun Drone, Burn, Extracted Essense, and so forth. In general, it does not apply to any pseudo-pet. (A pet which cannot be targetted) (Can multiple Spectral Terrors be summoned?)
Dark Servant and Phantom Army have a recharge time longer than their duration, much longer in the case of Masterminds, so you still have the benefit of summoning them more often. That leaves Voltaic Sentinel. Which, honestly, is just a little wierd. I don't know what the thought is there, but quite a few folks have said it needs a longer duration, and maybe a longer than the duration recharge to go along with that.
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BUt this isn't something the average playerbase knows. Ask a random person in the game what slotting recharge in their pet does, and I'm pretty certain that 9 times out of 10, the answer will be "Makes the pet come up faster."
There's nothing "intuitive" that makes one think that it makes the pets' powers come up faster. The logical response is that it does what recharge does in every other power...makes that power come up faster.
And since the effects of rech are largely unnoticable unless you already know about what the recharge does, (and/or have *massive* levels of recharge) and decide to number crunch...it's not surprising.
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The one BIG thing that throws this entire lining of thinking into the garbage is that they added detailed power windows into the game.
If I slot an imp with a rech enhancement under detailed info it SAYS it attacks faster as a result.
So really logic, intuitiveness and all that subjective baloney aside, the GAME is telling me that slotting a rech enhancement makes the power come up faster AND makes the pet/summon attack faster (regardless of the fact that rech SO's have no effect on imp attack speed lol). Really I like to think I can 'trust" what the game is telling me, especially as a new player.
This is on test server btw (and live).
So hopefully they'll eventually get around to completing what they started rather than another half complete job being called good to go. Because if detailed info says rech is affecting my pet I'll be sending in bug reports as often as I can.
keep trying devs, you'll eventually get it right.
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they can't leave things as they are.
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Hmm, can't they? I think that's really a matter of opinion.
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Yeah, but it's their opinion, so unfortunately it carries more weight than the rest of us. They are also getting paid for it and encouraging sales of it, which despite all the threats to quit over this, seems to make them lean towards continuing to fix issues they see as a problem.
Note that the devs HAVE NOT left this problem alone, they have been constantly breaking the RIP sets trying to get them to work around this known bug. They can't just "leave it as it is", they will continue to try to come up with a solution until they either do finally find one (which they seem to be saying they have) or they drop RIP sets from the game entirely.
Which do you prefer?
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Dropping RIP sets of course... One can work around not having them with other slotting options. I can't work around not being able to take advantage of some of my better secondary powers on those pets.
In this particular case, IOs have taken precedence over at least two power-sets (rad and kin, any others?) that's just not acceptable considering they're supposed to be optional content.
--
Mu
[/ QUOTE ]empathy and pain domination have recharge as well.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Dropping RIP sets of course... One can work around not having them with other slotting options. I can't work around not being able to take advantage of some of my better secondary powers on those pets.
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Well, I guess another possibility would be only to lock the recharge of psuedo-pets, and leave it alone for the unlimited duration pets, like MM henchmen.
Note also that if you can "work around" the problem, likely the devs will continue to try to find ways to stop you from working around it. Just removing RIP sets doesn't mean other sets wouldn't get the tweaking treatment.
Opp. I forgot about. I thought VS wasn't grouped with them.
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Slotting for damage in an typical attack power ups both the DPS and DPE
Slotting for endrec keeps DPS constant and ups the DPE
Slotting for recharge keeps DPE constant and ups the DPS (though the amount is not consistent and depends upon attack chains etc)
The bug of allowing recharge to affect the pets powers means that recharge slotting (through these partial rehcrage IOs) is upping both DPS and DPE.
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But pets don't benefit from global recharge reduction. We need to specifically put -recharge in pet power.
Pet is your strength and the biggest weakness. In most cases, I would say pets are pretty reliable in this game except when it REALLY matters. In raid, I took my MM there once and I swear I'll never do it again. My Merc/Poison was totally owned there. I spent 90% of the time resummoning! And then in certain TF like ITF, having more pets is a liability because the healing crystal leech off more health. And any hero/av can easily aoe most pets to death before the pets can even deal meaningful damage.
I am still not convinced that -recharge in pet is creating "over-powering" phenonemen. I don't recall any big thread complaining that pets are dealing too much dmg. I've seen way more overpowering things than my pet attacking a bit faster (perma-dom with uber proc in Shockwave for example).
I did suspect that -recharge in pets was a "mistake" at first. I did ask many times if it was intended or not in many discussions but dev NEVER did take on a position (well, until now!). As time passed by, it was pretty obvious that -recharge in pet was allowed. They even created a Pet Recharge Set to give us more tools to improve -recharge in pets. Am I believe that this was a "bug"?? Sometimes a "bug" that was created is just a "new" discovery. The dev probably thought -recharge in pets is a good way to balance the fact that global recharge reduction doesn't benefit pets. I think it's a fair trade-off.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Honest question; why would they lie?
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Because they are human. However, I didnt say they lied. They could also be mistaken, as could I.
I do remember the recharge inheritance and buff inheritance and the like being mentioned in the patch notes when it went into effect. When that patch went live, I knew because of the patch notes. I did little else aside from running around, eating as many reds as I could, clicking hasten, and then letting fly with Cages, LS and Tornado.
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Issue 7 patch note 06-06-2006
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Many Location based powers (Such as Rain of Fire and Blizzard) can now be affected by the casters Buffs (for example, using Build Up will now increase the damage of Blizzard).
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I went through each pacth note between I7 and I8, there is nothing further. Certainly no specific mention of recharge inheritance.
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But no mention of it not affecting either. In fact the example given just says BU, were we to assume that ONLY the affects of BU (tohit, dam) would affect a power like LS, or were we to assume that ie. bu meant more than just those affects would carry over.
No one was wrong in assuming rech would be carried over, just like you wouldn't be wrong if you assumed it didn't.
Caster buffs do include recharge though, so ya...
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Dropping RIP sets of course... One can work around not having them with other slotting options. I can't work around not being able to take advantage of some of my better secondary powers on those pets.
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Well, I guess another possibility would be only to lock the recharge of psuedo-pets, and leave it alone for the unlimited duration pets, like MM henchmen.
Note also that if you can "work around" the problem, likely the devs will continue to try to find ways to stop you from working around it. Just removing RIP sets doesn't mean other sets wouldn't get the tweaking treatment.
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By work around I mean, I can slot recharge from other sources, or otherwise frakenslot to get the summon time down. A level 50 io with a few pet damage IOs would give me the same effect as many of the RIP sets can do now (set bonuses, and procs aside, assuming they are working at all, etc).
I don't mean, work around them getting the enhance multiple effects carried through to their attacks...
--
Mu
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Opp. I forgot about. I thought VS wasn't grouped with them.
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What's wierd about VS is that even though according to CoD it is perma out of the box (60s recharge, 60s duration) I constantly see it disappear a short time before it recharges. And I might even have a Recharge enhancement in it, I'm not sure whether I do or not.
Clearly it should not take Recharge if it does take longer to recharge than its duration, can't have multiples, AND can't have its own recharge buffed. Hopefully that's something that will be looked at.
I'll also add that the long duration pets that cannot have multiples became long duration when that feature was added. Previously they had durations, which is why they could be stacked, but you couldn't just keep summoning them infinitely. 
I'm guessing that for whatever reason, Dark Servant, Phantom Army and VS (plus whatever other Controller pets with durations were effected) were given the same treatment.
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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.
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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.
It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)
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That's an interesting idea.
Mind Link should do it.
edit: Fortitude and Enforced Morale too.
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I don't mean, work around them getting the enhance multiple effects carried through to their attacks...
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I don't either. Castle himself said that being able to slot multiple type Enhancements in a power that doesn't take them is a "bug" and that it remains that way only because the fix is unacceptable. I wouldn't make the assumption that no other solution is ever going to come along.
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Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge.
<snip>
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Wonder if they are fixing the display window? or if people are just supposed to know that it does nothing.
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Good question.
That's more of a pohsyb-issue than a Castle-issue, but it'd definitely be nice if the power info window was more accurate (it's not always trivial to get right though).
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Slotting for damage in an typical attack power ups both the DPS and DPE
Slotting for endrec keeps DPS constant and ups the DPE
Slotting for recharge keeps DPE constant and ups the DPS (though the amount is not consistent and depends upon attack chains etc)
The bug of allowing recharge to affect the pets powers means that recharge slotting (through these partial rehcrage IOs) is upping both DPS and DPE.
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But pets don't benefit from global recharge reduction. We need to specifically put -recharge in pet power.
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And that is why.
If something is specifically designed to give a pet -recharge (and that's won't be possible any more, unfortunately) then that's fine, because it doesn't effect the caster -recharge. If a pet is hit by a -recharge buff (and that won't be possible any more either) that's really the same, as if the caster happens to be hit by the same buff, he's still a separate individual.
Any time you get both the caster's recharge AND the pet's recharge, though, you get this multiplication. If you get only the caster recharge and the pet is left alone, that's fine, and if you get only the pet's recharge and the caster is left alone, that's fine. One or the other, but not both.
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As I recall from the discussions with the devs, the code basically just cloned all of the current buffs (types, magnitudes and durations) of the player onto the summoned entity. That was to allow powers like Burn and Blizzard to buffable like other non-summoned entity attacks like Nova.
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. They can't just turn to the bufffs and say, "Hey, are you a damage buff? A recharge buff, maybe?"
This would seem to suggest that yes, Lightning Storm and Burn and Blizzard and all the rest of them, if targetted, would have whatever defense buffs the player had on them.
Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
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Actually the solution at the time was so blatantly obvious that i'm surprised they never thought of it (or am I? 
)
Very few of the pseudo-pets that were receiving the i7 caster buff transfer actually have "attacks" as we think of them. The vast majority opperate like blizzard with "activate periods".
*If recharge was never meant to boost a power like LS all they had to do was change it from using lightning bolt with cast+rech, to lightning bolt with activate period = 5 seconds akin to something like bonfire with an activate period of 2 sec.
The question is "why" it wasn't done?
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Actually the solution at the time was so blatantly obvious that i'm surprised they never thought of it (or am I? )
Very few of the pseudo-pets that were receiving the i7 caster buff transfer actually have "attacks" as we think of them. The vast majority opperate like blizzard with "activate periods".
*If recharge was never meant to boost a power like LS all they had to do was change it from using lightning bolt with cast+rech, to lightning bolt with activate period = 5 seconds akin to something like bonfire with an activate period of 2 sec.
The question is "why" it wasn't done?
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Anytime something seems like an obvious and easy fix that hasn't been implemented, it probably isn't.
In this case, I would guess (and since I haven't seen the code, I would imagine that it's a not even this 'simple') that going from a targeted power to an 'activation period' would make these powers unable to shoot at individual targets inside their range and instead work as something closer to an AoE where all targets in the area would be hit. If that's not the intent of the power (as is the case with Lightning storm or Voltaic Sentinel), then an entity casting single targeted powers seems like a better solution.
Is it possible to write a combat system such that your suggestion works best? Certainly. Is that the combat system we currently have? I think it's safe to assume that it isn't and that making become so would require ripping out more of the codebase than would be beneficial from a time perspective (i.e. The General Coding Rant).
I think that there are clearly a couple of different camps here: people who are willing to assume that the reasons stated are a coverup for something unstated (developers are liars, lazy, have some hidden agenda, are shortsighted, can't write decent code, etc.), and those who have accepted the stated reasons and are looking to get some kind of compensation for the powers they believe will be negatively affected by this change.
Perhaps those in the first group could get a thread started in the "For Fun" section of the forums in order to make the helpful feedback easier to sift through in here...
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As I recall from the discussions with the devs, the code basically just cloned all of the current buffs (types, magnitudes and durations) of the player onto the summoned entity. That was to allow powers like Burn and Blizzard to buffable like other non-summoned entity attacks like Nova.
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. They can't just turn to the bufffs and say, "Hey, are you a damage buff? A recharge buff, maybe?"
This would seem to suggest that yes, Lightning Storm and Burn and Blizzard and all the rest of them, if targetted, would have whatever defense buffs the player had on them.
Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
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Actually the solution at the time was so blatantly obvious that i'm surprised they never thought of it (or am I? )
Very few of the pseudo-pets that were receiving the i7 caster buff transfer actually have "attacks" as we think of them. The vast majority opperate like blizzard with "activate periods".
*If recharge was never meant to boost a power like LS all they had to do was change it from using lightning bolt with cast+rech, to lightning bolt with activate period = 5 seconds akin to something like bonfire with an activate period of 2 sec.
The question is "why" it wasn't done?
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Because that can't be done without changing how the power works?
You could make it function like the damage auras. And deal damage to everyone around them. But for it to shoot a bolt of lightning, it has to be a power called "bolt of lightning" that has a cast time/recharge time.
Unless you're talking a power aura that when it hits, summons a second pet on the person, which uses a lightning attack. But that's STILL the same problem
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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.
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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.
It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)
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That's an interesting idea.
Mind Link should do it.
edit: Fortitude, Forge and Enforced Morale too.
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I'm fairly certain all those will carry over to EE's (I'm 99% positive Fortitude does, less certain on the rest). Forge would regardless because it is only a +tohit and +dam buff (like a Mire).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I think people are getting hung up on the comparison to AOE "rain" powers. Let me put the OP's thought as I understand it in different terms. Right now on live, Lightning Storm's attack has a cast time of 1.17 seconds and a recharge time of 4 seconds. What would happen if you changed that to a cast time of 5.17 seconds and recharge time of 0 seconds, leaving all other power parameters unchanged?
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I don't mean, work around them getting the enhance multiple effects carried through to their attacks...
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I don't either. Castle himself said that being able to slot multiple type Enhancements in a power that doesn't take them is a "bug" and that it remains that way only because the fix is unacceptable. I wouldn't make the assumption that no other solution is ever going to come along.
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Wait... It's a bug that I can slot three of a set, that say gives me:
dmg
dmg/acc
dmg/acc/end
Then slot a level 50 DMG and two level 50 recharge IOs?
That can't be right...
--
Mu
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As I recall from the discussions with the devs, the code basically just cloned all of the current buffs (types, magnitudes and durations) of the player onto the summoned entity. That was to allow powers like Burn and Blizzard to buffable like other non-summoned entity attacks like Nova.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. They can't just turn to the bufffs and say, "Hey, are you a damage buff? A recharge buff, maybe?"
This would seem to suggest that yes, Lightning Storm and Burn and Blizzard and all the rest of them, if targetted, would have whatever defense buffs the player had on them.
Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the solution at the time was so blatantly obvious that i'm surprised they never thought of it (or am I? )
Very few of the pseudo-pets that were receiving the i7 caster buff transfer actually have "attacks" as we think of them. The vast majority opperate like blizzard with "activate periods".
*If recharge was never meant to boost a power like LS all they had to do was change it from using lightning bolt with cast+rech, to lightning bolt with activate period = 5 seconds akin to something like bonfire with an activate period of 2 sec.
The question is "why" it wasn't done?
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Because that can't be done without changing how the power works?
You could make it function like the damage auras. And deal damage to everyone around them. But for it to shoot a bolt of lightning, it has to be a power called "bolt of lightning" that has a cast time/recharge time.
Unless you're talking a power aura that when it hits, summons a second pet on the person, which uses a lightning attack. But that's STILL the same problem
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Hmm interesting. there are so few pets this applies to that I can't think of any that shoot things away from them with an "activate period" probably because there aren't any.
did they try changing LS to be an activate period or something else that would lock the cycle time? I follow what your saying, but I'm just guessing they didn't try anything at the time because at the time things like LS getting +rech was fine, which Castle even said; they knew, it just wasn't statistically significant at the time.
It really doesn't matter though, they have effectively changed every pet to have "activate periods" on their attacks now because they can't be manipulated at all.
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I think people are getting hung up on the comparison to AOE "rain" powers. Let me put the OP's thought as I understand it in different terms. Right now on live, Lightning Storm's attack has a cast time of 1.17 seconds and a recharge time of 4 seconds. What would happen if you changed that to a cast time of 5.17 seconds and recharge time of 0 seconds, leaving all other power parameters unchanged?
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Hmm.
Well, I'm not sure the game can accept 0 as a recharge for attack powers. But 0.001 or something.
I do see your point. I wouldn't know the answer to that, only the Devs.
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I think people are getting hung up on the comparison to AOE "rain" powers. Let me put the OP's thought as I understand it in different terms. Right now on live, Lightning Storm's attack has a cast time of 1.17 seconds and a recharge time of 4 seconds. What would happen if you changed that to a cast time of 5.17 seconds and recharge time of 0 seconds, leaving all other power parameters unchanged?
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ah there we go. This is what I was trying to get to with the idea that they should have set LS to be an activate period in i7 even though that wouldn't work.
thanks, I knew it was entirely possible to 100% restrict the fire rate in i7 had they chose to when they allowed caster buffs to affect it.
all well, cold for trollers soon plz.
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they can't leave things as they are.
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Hmm, can't they? I think that's really a matter of opinion.
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Yeah, but it's their opinion, so unfortunately it carries more weight than the rest of us. They are also getting paid for it and encouraging sales of it, which despite all the threats to quit over this, seems to make them lean towards continuing to fix issues they see as a problem.
Note that the devs HAVE NOT left this problem alone, they have been constantly breaking the RIP sets trying to get them to work around this known bug. They can't just "leave it as it is", they will continue to try to come up with a solution until they either do finally find one (which they seem to be saying they have) or they drop RIP sets from the game entirely.
Which do you prefer?