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If no pet powers can be affected by recharge buffs, does that mean that all pet powers were balanced by this when they were designed? Powers available to players can enhance effect (damage, heal, mez, etc) and recharge. Simply enhancing both by +100% yields a theoretical 300% increase in effectiveness. If we no longer allow the recharge to be there, the increase can only be 100%.
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You will be able to summon the pet twice as often. So +300% effectiveness. (A total effectiveness of 400%, since the recharge stacks with the damage)
MM henchmen excepted. (Unfortunately)
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Don't know why people keep missing this post from Castle...
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I don't know why it isn't being considered that when Lightning Storm happened to inherit Recharge in issue 7 that it was a bug, much like it not getting the new immune to +recharge code which was just introduced right now. There were not as many players like Arcanaville looking over the dev's changes and making sure that individual powers and typos were not being missed. And there are pets that DON'T inherit recharge from their parents, (and do inherit, like, damage) right?
Of course, that makes me wonder why Recharge CAN'T be made so that it isn't inherited at all. But maybe this is where the difference between a Recharge Enhancement and a Dam/Recharge Enhancement comes in again. Maybe the inheritance code can't drop the second one, so pets that aren't inheriting recharge buffs from their parents are still inheriting Dam/Rech IOs.
Man, this is complicated... 
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There are actually two types of inheritance here:
(1) Pets inheriting buffs from the caster. This was what was added in I7 to allow pseudo-pet powers such as Blizzard and Rain of Fire (the true pet Extracted Essence also seems to use this feature) to inherit Accuracy and Damage buffs from Aim, inspirations and the like. This is the function Castle referred to in his post. It apparently can't be practically modified so that it doesn't pass Recharge buffs.
(2) Pet powers inheriting enhancement from their summoning power. This is the issue that cropped up with allowing pets to slot IO Sets other the Pet Damage, as the Recharge components of those sets passed through to the pet powers. Soulbound Allegiance's selling point was that it would do that as well; I believe intentional in that case, unlike the others. Then they made a huge mistake and introduced Recharge Intensive Pet sets thinking there was a way to prevent just the Recharge component of an IO from passing from summon power to pet power. Apparently there wasn't, as the various things they tried left the RIP sets non-functional.
[Edited: Removed irrelevant speculation.]
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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I went through each pacth note between I7 and I8, there is nothing further. Certainly no specific mention of recharge inheritance.
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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.
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As I recall from the discussions with the devs, the code basically just cloned all of the current buffs (types, magnitudes and durations) of the player onto the summoned entity. That was to allow powers like Burn and Blizzard to buffable like other non-summoned entity attacks like Nova.
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Jounin haven't been cycling their attack now on the Live Servers. My pre-level 32 Jounin like to use Soaring Dragon multiple times in a row. In fact, I think that character is still 22-. No SO's, just DOs. no IO Set bonuses at all.
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I don't think this fix will help jounin or the bruisers much. I had no recharge in any of them, nor do my gals have hasten nor did they get any "buffs" by outside sources and still acted wonky. Not cycling attacks, stuck in range mode etc.
I just started io'ing last two weeks and sadly those purp pet sets I bought (and having saved for all this time) have lost luster. I had assumed after all this time it was safe to io...guess I was mistaken. 
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Well if they had just came out and say hey guys these powers are bugged but underperforming. We will buff them at a later time. Sure people would be mad but thats a hell of alot easier to deal with than what we are getting now. I am fairly confident that once this goes live those sets wont see a real buff for many years to come. We all know how long it takes for changes around here. Look at defiance, look at war mace, look at ice melee, look at invulnerability, look at the patron powers.
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To be fair, the devs can't really tell if they're underpowered or not until they fix them. If some people are spamming massively recharge-boosted pseudopets while others are using no recharge boosts then the datamining will be all over the place... once the bug is fixed the devs can get a more accurate view of how well they perform when used as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]I disagree, all they have to do is log into their game and create a toon with said powerset and just play it in a mission. You dont need datamining to do that. Its call being in touch with the game. They seem to know how stuff is supposed to work but not how players actually use the powers themselves. Thats the problem. A little time loggin in with each powerset from time to time can at least make you more aware of whats wrong. I am not saying they got time to play every set but if they can read a thread on the forums thats says " Why is elec damage considered poor?" and one person in said thread says because VS sucks. Well a little light should go off and say hey maybe i need to test that and compare it to other sets to see if those complaints are legitimate.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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If no pet powers can be affected by recharge buffs, does that mean that all pet powers were balanced by this when they were designed? Powers available to players can enhance effect (damage, heal, mez, etc) and recharge. Simply enhancing both by +100% yields a theoretical 300% increase in effectiveness. If we no longer allow the recharge to be there, the increase can only be 100%.
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You will be able to summon the pet twice as often. So +300% effectiveness. (A total effectiveness of 400%, since the recharge stacks with the damage)
MM henchmen excepted. (Unfortunately)
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Yep.
Slotting for damage in an typical attack power ups both the DPS and DPE
Slotting for endrec keeps DPS constant and ups the DPE
Slotting for recharge keeps DPE constant and ups the DPS (though the amount is not consistent and depends upon attack chains etc)
The bug of allowing recharge to affect the pets powers means that recharge slotting (through these partial rehcrage IOs) is upping both DPS and DPE.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Well a little light should go off and say hey maybe i need to test that and compare it to other sets to see if those complaints are legitimate.
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"Right after I finish implementing the new proliferated powersets, fix those problems with War Mace that have been in the pipeline for three months, and get these more important bugfixes we found on test yesterday out of the way."
What is it you think the devs do all day anyway? Wait for your posts?
ETA: There are god knows how many different powersets and combinations thereof, and when you add IOs into the mix there's even more combinations possible. Players have the time, because there's so many of them; one player can exploit the hell out of one powerset, another can exploit another, etc. They only have so many devs that are already working on other projects. Datamining is more efficient because it gives them an overall view of what's going on, which is far better and takes less time than individually monkeying with each set like a player.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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As I recall from the discussions with the devs, the code basically just cloned all of the current buffs (types, magnitudes and durations) of the player onto the summoned entity. That was to allow powers like Burn and Blizzard to buffable like other non-summoned entity attacks like Nova.
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Actually, that makes a lot of sense. They can't just turn to the bufffs and say, "Hey, are you a damage buff? A recharge buff, maybe?"
This would seem to suggest that yes, Lightning Storm and Burn and Blizzard and all the rest of them, if targetted, would have whatever defense buffs the player had on them.
Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
If people read Castle first post, he mentioned that some Pet AI issues were caused by +RECH buffs to the powers. This change will fix some AI issue not all. * glances towards NPC Fuzun in my published arc...
And Soulbound Allegiance is still a very worthwhile set. I really didn't know or even notice about the +RECH of the set leaking into my Warshades Extracted Essences. I wanted the set for the +RECH for summoning them AND the Pet Build Up Proc. I could slot Pet Damage sets into them at the time, but w/o recharge it means a lot of down time beween pets.
If I didn't already have the the Soulbound's already, I've be slotting a RIP set for the +RECH bonus for me. Soulbounds's Set Bonuses are OK but don't include any +RECH.
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True pets were NOT intended to have recharge effected by Recharge enhancements (because that effects how often they are summoned, instead) and they were not intended to inherit their parent's powers. (Because they are true pets and thus don't inherit)
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I would be perfectly happy to have set IOs with recharge not affect the power, so long as external and inheritable buffs still apply.
Now, if these things are internally inseparable, then they should ONLY modify the pets that need the AI adjustments, since the current state of affairs hasnt exactly been unbalancing the game, but it HAS been contributing to the fun in the game, and especially the "what do I do at level 50?" type fun.
Lewis
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In the case of LS I'd rather have it's rech locked at 90 sec, but when I summon it have it useful in more fights. As it stands now I can summon a highly situational power more often, even though situations that warrant it aren't very common.
To me its like having a short recharge on singularity. The dam thing never dies, so why do I need it up more often? I'd much rather it attacks faster.
Castle hopefully realizes (some time before this game eventually dies off) that just because you increase the frequency that a highly situational aspect is able to occur at, does not increase the frequency of the situation you would use it.
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Honest, curious question here: If having recharge slotted in Mind Link is acceptable by the devs, why doesn't it just accept recharge enhancements directly?
This leads to complicated and confusing scenarios like the one with the pets, where you can slot recharges into them and they get the benefit, but that's not working as intended so they change it.
I don't want to wake up one day and find that my ML recharge time is fixed at 240 seconds when I worked to have it perma (and I'm rather squishy without it being perma, considering low HP, no RES, no heal).
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Stuff like this is part of why people are upset. The dev team throws out stuff with no internal consistency.
The went on the record saying it was ok to sneak rech into ML for f-sake, but apparently that is NOT ok in a different group of powers.
I have no desire for ML to be nerfed at all, they should just change it to accept normal rech.
A lack of consistency from them and decisions that make me question their thought processes just leave a bad taste.
[/ QUOTE ] If they let Mind Link take normal recharge enhancements, it WOULD be nerfed. It was desinged to allow recharge buffs, and as a known side affect due to how the system works, franken-os would also work. The only way for them to block the multiaspect IO would be for them give it the SoW treatment - at which point hasten and other global recharge buff would not affect it.
IIRC.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.
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Makes me wonder if psuedo-pets inherit the defense and resistance of their parent as well.
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They don't (unless what buffs are inherited can be specified on a pet by pet basis).
If a Warshade uses an Enrage or an Insight before using Dark Extraction the insp buffs will carry over to the pet, but if you instead use a Luck or a Sturdy, they will not carry over.
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Honest, curious question here: If having recharge slotted in Mind Link is acceptable by the devs, why doesn't it just accept recharge enhancements directly?
This leads to complicated and confusing scenarios like the one with the pets, where you can slot recharges into them and they get the benefit, but that's not working as intended so they change it.
I don't want to wake up one day and find that my ML recharge time is fixed at 240 seconds when I worked to have it perma (and I'm rather squishy without it being perma, considering low HP, no RES, no heal).
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Stuff like this is part of why people are upset. The dev team throws out stuff with no internal consistency.
The went on the record saying it was ok to sneak rech into ML for f-sake, but apparently that is NOT ok in a different group of powers.
I have no desire for ML to be nerfed at all, they should just change it to accept normal rech.
A lack of consistency from them and decisions that make me question their thought processes just leave a bad taste.
[/ QUOTE ] If they let Mind Link take normal recharge enhancements, it WOULD be nerfed. It was desinged to allow recharge buffs, and as a known side affect due to how the system works, franken-os would also work. The only way for them to block the multiaspect IO would be for them give it the SoW treatment - at which point hasten and other global recharge buff would not affect it.
IIRC.
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I find it hard to believe that the power is too powerful if allowed to use generic IOs but not if you use the more powerful set IOs.
If they gave the power the SoW treatment, they'd set the uptime/downtime ratio to what they wanted like SoW and hardlock the recharge. So it'd likely be lower than it is now, sorta like SoW's recharge is lower than other tier 9s, but not perma.
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But my actual point was to use hyperbole to show that hyberbole was already being applied to the situation by others.
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Well, I hope my response to his post addressed the counter argument and not the hyperbole. Hyperbole is fine, as long as you do not introduce an assumption that does not apply. (Such as that slotting an attack for recharge is the same thing as having a pet fire more quickly)
If you are in fact not taking a side in the argument, but instead mocking the debate, I can appreciate that, too. I addressed the side you seemed to be taking, sorry if I got it wrong.
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You are using the word pet, but for clarity you might want to specifically say LS, or gun drone (not VS) because those are the only situations that benefit from having the pet up more often (because it makes it perma where it isn't out of the box and/or stacks) and it attacks faster.
Being able to buff the attack speed of an imp or stoney or MM pet is not unbalancing in the least (bugged though apparently for some of them due to poor ai programming). The only way it would be is if you could still stack multiple instances of them like the old days.
Some are gaining in that their bruiser will work better. Some are losing for no good reason in that their imps are now unbuffable even if you specifically chose a buffing set for that reason.
Castle (and followers) can spin it however they like, but my earth/kin is never going to kiss his butt and call it ice cream. It is 100% a nerf for no reason on a toon like that.
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The bug of allowing recharge to affect the pets powers means that recharge slotting (through these partial rehcrage IOs) is upping both DPS and DPE.
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Well, that and it's doubling it yet again.
Base damage: 100%
3 slotted for damage: 200%
Pet fires twice as often: 400%
Pet summoned twice as often: 800%.
Yeah. Mind you, in many cases the pet firing twice as often runs up against the limit of attack chains and animation time, as with a player with high recharge. There is also a pause introduced by the AI, which further limits how fast a pet can fire. My own testing with recharge, in fact, showed that MM henchmen didn't really get that much of a bonus from it, due to the number of attacks they have. The main place the bonus comes into play is high damage attacks recharging more often, and if the AI is usually only designed to give preference to one or two attacks that way.
On the other hand, if you've for a pet with only one attack, and it has a fairly slow fire rate, you're going to get very close to 200% damage out of it. (And MM's without their henchmen upgraded can do this, too)
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[
Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
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Oh yes they can be buffed. A Fulcrum Shift, Clear Mind, Adreanal Boost, Speed Boost, Accel Metal, and Vengenance buffed Fuzzball (with some Yellow inspirations for flavoring) is a awesome engine of destruction. 
Go, Go Uber-Fuzzball...of DOOOOMMM!!!!!! And when I add to the mix my own Warshade Nova with like buffs. Purple Rain of DOOOOOM, FTW!! (Yes. I do live for those moments )
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I'm for anything that makes the game better. My main toon is an Ice/Storm controller and in all honesty, I find storm very flashy and very unimpressive unless you love lots of aggro. If you don't keep your enemies rooted by your control powers it quickly gets out of hand and you have every mob aggroed on you and your team. I just hope that after this they might either make LS a larger AOE or increase the damage output, atleast then it will be somewhat useful. I couldn't even imagine playing the storm set on a defender with no way to mitigate the knockback with immoblizes and holds and in my opinion really isn't even a viable defender set. This may just be me and the way I play the set, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. It would be neat if they gave LS a damage over time component with a larger AOE as well, perhaps some hailstones as well as the lightning =) Just a thought. What I do know is that I will always love my Ice/Storm controller and will still play her but probably because she is my badge hunter. Just my opinion but it is a well founded opinion as at last check I had almost 1700 hours logged on her according to the citizens that you click on that tell you how long you've been on patrol =)
It's all good, I'll find a way to play her that is still fun, mostly because I love the toon's concept =)
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They may very well end up improving powers that were drastically changed by this nerf. But it won't be for nearly 2 yrs once the datamining tells them the obvious.
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Ooo, Extracted Essense can be buffed? It's targettable, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see if it inherits the defense buffs. (They wouldn't last long, though, the WS shields tick every 0.75 seconds. Do an Eclipse, though, and then Extract... )
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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Based on discussions at the time, I was pretty sure they gave them "buff" inheritance. Primarily they were interested in damage and toHit, for things like Ice Storm or RoF. Doing that by letting everything through was probably just the shortest path to the goal.
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Makes me wonder if psuedo-pets inherit the defense and resistance of their parent as well.
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They don't (unless what buffs are inherited can be specified on a pet by pet basis).
If a Warshade uses an Enrage or an Insight before using Dark Extraction the insp buffs will carry over to the pet, but if you instead use a Luck or a Sturdy, they will not carry over.
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Or Eclipse vs Sunless Mire.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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Being able to buff the attack speed of an imp or stoney or MM pet is not unbalancing in the least (bugged though apparently for some of them due to poor ai programming). The only way it would be is if you could still stack multiple instances of them like the old days.
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In most cases, I'm dropping the "psuedo", and just saying "pet" where it's clear from the context which I mean.
I must admit I didn't realize Fire Imps and the like have infinite duration, however (or near-infinite, you know what I mean) so I may have applied the logic there when it does not apply. On the other hand, having slotted Recharge apply to the recharge time of Phantom Army, and apply to the attack rate of Phantasm is inconsistent, and likely to cause confusion.
At the very least, you have less time to wait before you can resummon a pet when the last gets killed, although that is so variable it can't be determines as a damage multiplier. And if you did slot Recharge and expect it to increase your pet's damage rate, I would argue you should NOT expect it to decrease your summoning time too.
It is important to add, though, that true pets should NEVER inherit the attributes of their parent. Stoney should not be buffed because someone hit you with an AM, he should be buffed if HE is hit with an AM. So the Inheritance mechanism should still be blocked.
That leaves external buffs, and again, while I'm all for that, it seems it ended up being sacrificed for the AI. The pseudo-pets are because you shouldn't be able to buff recharge, the true pets are because recharge buffs bork the AI. It's ugly, it's not fair, but there it is.
(And you've also introduced a third category of pet to the mix, which MM henchmen are part of. There are psuedo-pets, true pets of limited duration, and pets of unlimited duration. Note the second set, PA being a good example, while they aren't pseudo pets, still get maximum benefit out of recharge)
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Ultimately, the second most unacceptable solution was decided to be acceptable because it helped with the henchmen AI problems. It caused problems as well, it caused true pets to be unbuffable, and also made them immune to debuffs. (Which is a good thing, for player pets, at least in PvE) But they can't introduce the lag, they can't drop every IO that gives Recharge, and they can't leave things as they are.
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Hmm, can't they? I think that's really a matter of opinion. They're opting to break one thing to fix another. If this were limited to stopping the back-door enhancement of the pets though IOs, I think I'd be fine with it. It would be comparable to the changes that made melee attacks immune to range change (dmg/rng HO in shadow maul ftw).
Fact is, it's not though, it outright breaks the buffability of every single already buffable pet. It also breaks the debuffablity of them (which could have huge pvp implications). It generally shifts the rules of the game quite a bit, with bad side effects for some people who've done nothing that wasn't 'intended' (buffing and debuffing pet recharge with powers designed to do that).
At the _VERY LEAST_ they should pull this fix until they can wrap it with some other form of 'give back'. They should also make sure the powers are changed on pets in pvp zones to play like they do now...
--
Mu
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Castle (and followers) can spin it however they like, but my earth/kin is never going to kiss his butt and call it ice cream. It is 100% a nerf for no reason on a toon like that.
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Yes; my Earth/Kin is probably going to be deleted because of this.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Something to majorly bear in mind. The powers are already balance in regard to their currently intended performance. The leaked Reacharge altereed their performance.
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2) VS does not benefit from Recharge now since it's perma out of the box. End cost and animation time seems reasonable. Would you consider shortening its lifespan to about 45 seconds, and speeding up its fire rate so that it does the same damage over its lifetime? That way slotting up Recharge in it makes a bit of sense, right now since it doesn't stack, that's wasted slotting.
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Rechage still makes since as you can get multiples out. Most people don't bother with the power or just 4 slotting is an leave it be.
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No. You can't.
Issue 5, titled Forest of Dread, was a major revision to City of Heroes released on Wednesday, August 31, 2005. Some of the major features released in this issue were:
Controller Pets, Dark Miasma/Dark Servant and Electrical Blast/Voltaic Sentinel can no longer 'stack'. Reusing these summon powers before your pet has expired will remove the old pets and spawn new ones. Pet powers were too strong with multiple instances out at once. Once a Controller or Defender had pets, their play style and balance completely changed. Pets remain a powerful tool for heroes, but are no longer class-defining. Due to the change in the powers, we removed the randomness in the number of pets you get with Fire Imps and Phantom Army.
Edit: fixed broken quote tags.
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EE's are odd little things, and inherit some but not all buffs from the caster. They will inherit things like Hasten, SB, and the Mires, but not Eclipse or other +def/+res shields.
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Hm. I wonder if the buffs can be categorized as "offensive" or "defensive", and if that's how they tell them apart. If so, +recharge might be considered an offensive buff since it increases your damage, and thus it's considered the same as a damage or accuracy buff power.
It would be interesting to find a power that has both a damage, to hit or recharge buff, which we know is inherited, and the some other property which doesn't seem to be inherited, like defense, and see if it is applied. I actually thought Eclipse was both a Resistance and Damage buff... (not sure why, really)
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The ability to slot def/rech in Mind Link is not a bug. It was known throughout Beta and is working as intended, IIRC.
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Honest, curious question here: If having recharge slotted in Mind Link is acceptable by the devs, why doesn't it just accept recharge enhancements directly?
This leads to complicated and confusing scenarios like the one with the pets, where you can slot recharges into them and they get the benefit, but that's not working as intended so they change it.
I don't want to wake up one day and find that my ML recharge time is fixed at 240 seconds when I worked to have it perma (and I'm rather squishy without it being perma, considering low HP, no RES, no heal).
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Stuff like this is part of why people are upset. The dev team throws out stuff with no internal consistency.
The went on the record saying it was ok to sneak rech into ML for f-sake, but apparently that is NOT ok in a different group of powers.
I have no desire for ML to be nerfed at all, they should just change it to accept normal rech.
A lack of consistency from them and decisions that make me question their thought processes just leave a bad taste.