[ QUOTE ]
I always wonder what else is coming down the pipeline that they've neglected to properly data mine, and how significant a change will they implement to fix the "problem?"
[/ QUOTE ]
haha, looks like PvP in i13 really was only the beginning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Opp. I forgot about. I thought VS wasn't grouped with them.
[/ QUOTE ]
What's wierd about VS is that even though according to CoD it is perma out of the box (60s recharge, 60s duration) I constantly see it disappear a short time before it recharges. And I might even have a Recharge enhancement in it, I'm not sure whether I do or not.
Clearly it should not take Recharge if it does take longer to recharge than its duration, can't have multiples, AND can't have its own recharge buffed. Hopefully that's something that will be looked at.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Duration starts ticking down as soon as you click the power, the Recharge doesn't start till you have finished the cast. So there is a bit over a 3s gap in VS.
Recharge is not useless in it, as VS does inherit some buffs, so re-summoning it can be used to refresh the buffs on it to get more out of it.
[Edit for grammar]
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Hey I want to move past this issue personally.
Can anyone point out a pet/pseudo-pet class that is benefiting from this change a lot?
I've played thugs, necro, and ninjas into the 30's and I make heavy use of binds so I never had issues with them getting stuck really. I did however really enjoy being able to make brusier, knights and jounin cycle their attacks faster.
I've also done earth and never had stoney really get stuck in hurl spam.
So what pet class is really going to notice an improvement that would be applicable to me?
keep in mind I DO spend a lot of time IO'ing and would like the toon to improve considerable like all the other archtypes get to enjoy. Or is it a matter of that optional system put in place to add value not applying to pet classes anymore?
Any pet/pseodo-pet heavy toon you guys can suggest? or should I just roll a ss/wp brute or an sr scrapper and be done with it?
thx
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Pet's AI with -recharge causes major lag problem, then it should definitely be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstand: The Up to 50% increase wasn't pet powers. It was EVERY power, from every entity in the game -- it would require sandwiching a new check between calculating all Attribute alterations and applying those alterations in the powers system in general. So every single power in the game just because more CPU intensive, reducing the number of powers that can be processed at any given time. Things like the Zombie Apocalypse or Rikti Invasion would be horrendously affected. Hammi raids might need to be redone again.
That simply isn't a viable solution, despite it being the proper 'code' solution. Oh, it would also eliminate the ability for players to increase the recharge time of powers like Mind Link which don't normally accept recharge enhancements via Hammi-O's or Set IOs (Hasten and Speed Boost would still work, though.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is a tough follow-up question. Let's just say this "change" is a done deal (sounds like it right now). Are there any plans to revisit pets again (and again? lol)? Assuming Global Recharge Reduction VS Pet's Recharge are not very balanced.
Here is simple example (maybe too simple). Assuming Blaster does 1500 dmg during 20s. With good Global Recharge, he now hits 2000 dmg under 20s. Merc MM does 1500 dmg (with debuffs like /Poison) too and with -recharge, Merc could reach 1800 dmg (that's a stretch I know!) but with the new change, Merc MM is stuck at 1500 dmg since no sets can increase debuff value (or MM needs to sacrifice support with personal attacks to make up the loss of -recharge). Do you get my point?
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't. Your example sounds pretty much in line with the way I'd expect things SHOULD be. Note that the MM is more durable and has a MUCH wider range of utility powers at his disposal, including heals. If he's doing the same DPS as a blaster, then something is seriously out of whack.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is simple example (maybe too simple). Assuming Blaster does 1500 dmg during 20s. With good Global Recharge, he now hits 2000 dmg under 20s. Merc MM does 1500 dmg (with debuffs like /Poison) too and with -recharge, Merc could reach 1800 dmg (that's a stretch I know!) but with the new change, Merc MM is stuck at 1500 dmg since no sets can increase debuff value (or MM needs to sacrifice support with personal attacks to make up the loss of -recharge). Do you get my point?
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't. Your example sounds pretty much in line with the way I'd expect things SHOULD be. Note that the MM is more durable and has a MUCH wider range of utility powers at his disposal, including heals. If he's doing the same DPS as a blaster, then something is seriously out of whack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess he was right that the example was too simple. The point was not that an MM should match a Blaster's damage output, but that an MM should benefit from enhancement (and buffs) in the same proportion as a Blaster.
[Edit:]
I thought I should add here that MMs do benefit from Recharge in their pet powers - in that those pets are balanced around being defeatable and being able to recharge them faster does help.
MMs have a lot of thorny balance issues like that though. For example: Having a red pill in the tray is worth less as it will only buff the damage of one of your pets if you use it, not all of the damage you are doing.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
I wonder how many things we don't see as bugs the Devs have left alone because they don't have that big effect yet. I'd imagine every time they tracked something back down to an old small bug that would need a big fix they go "Ohhh crap...they are going to hate this...NOT IT!"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Opp. I forgot about. I thought VS wasn't grouped with them.
[/ QUOTE ]
What's wierd about VS is that even though according to CoD it is perma out of the box (60s recharge, 60s duration) I constantly see it disappear a short time before it recharges. And I might even have a Recharge enhancement in it, I'm not sure whether I do or not.
Clearly it should not take Recharge if it does take longer to recharge than its duration, can't have multiples, AND can't have its own recharge buffed. Hopefully that's something that will be looked at.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Duration starts ticking down as soon as you click the power, the Recharge doesn't start till you have finished the cast. So there is a bit over a 3s gap in VS.
Recharge is not useless in it, as VS does inherit some buffs, so re-summoning it can be used to refresh the buffs on it to get more out of it.
[Edit for grammar]
[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't aware of that. Which buffs if I may ask?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Pet's AI with -recharge causes major lag problem, then it should definitely be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You misunderstand: The Up to 50% increase wasn't pet powers. It was EVERY power, from every entity in the game -- it would require sandwiching a new check between calculating all Attribute alterations and applying those alterations in the powers system in general. So every single power in the game just because more CPU intensive, reducing the number of powers that can be processed at any given time. Things like the Zombie Apocalypse or Rikti Invasion would be horrendously affected. Hammi raids might need to be redone again.
That simply isn't a viable solution, despite it being the proper 'code' solution. Oh, it would also eliminate the ability for players to increase the recharge time of powers like Mind Link which don't normally accept recharge enhancements via Hammi-O's or Set IOs (Hasten and Speed Boost would still work, though.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is a tough follow-up question. Let's just say this "change" is a done deal (sounds like it right now). Are there any plans to revisit pets again (and again? lol)? Assuming Global Recharge Reduction VS Pet's Recharge are not very balanced.
Here is simple example (maybe too simple). Assuming Blaster does 1500 dmg during 20s. With good Global Recharge, he now hits 2000 dmg under 20s. Merc MM does 1500 dmg (with debuffs like /Poison) too and with -recharge, Merc could reach 1800 dmg (that's a stretch I know!) but with the new change, Merc MM is stuck at 1500 dmg since no sets can increase debuff value (or MM needs to sacrifice support with personal attacks to make up the loss of -recharge). Do you get my point?
[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't. Your example sounds pretty much in line with the way I'd expect things SHOULD be. Note that the MM is more durable and has a MUCH wider range of utility powers at his disposal, including heals. If he's doing the same DPS as a blaster, then something is seriously out of whack.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am really not comparing Blaster VS MM. It could be Corruptor VS MM too. I am just using damage as an example of how "global recharge" can benefit other ATs more than benefiting MM. I used Merc/Poison only because Blaster can deal a lot more dmg in 20s than MM but you can replace "Blaster" with say.. "Spines Scrapper" or all SoAs.
Having more recharge on MM only means you can summon pets faster but then you run into the problem with endurance and activation time as well. Most summoning takes like 4-5s and then another 4-8s to upgrade. It got a lot better with team-upgrade though (I have to admit but the endurance cost to upgrade one dead pet is HUGE).
I am just saying now that you take away something that some MMs been enjoying (-recharge in pet's attack chain), are there gonna be some adjustments to make up for it?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
Hey I want to move past this issue personally.
Can anyone point out a pet/pseudo-pet class that is benefiting from this change a lot?
I've played thugs, necro, and ninjas into the 30's and I make heavy use of binds so I never had issues with them getting stuck really. I did however really enjoy being able to make brusier, knights and jounin cycle their attacks faster.
I've also done earth and never had stoney really get stuck in hurl spam.
So what pet class is really going to notice an improvement that would be applicable to me?
keep in mind I DO spend a lot of time IO'ing and would like the toon to improve considerable like all the other archtypes get to enjoy. Or is it a matter of that optional system put in place to add value not applying to pet classes anymore?
Any pet/pseodo-pet heavy toon you guys can suggest? or should I just roll a ss/wp brute or an sr scrapper and be done with it?
thx
[/ QUOTE ]
My Io-less pet users are exactly the same as they were before.... good. It eludes me completely as to why you would think an enhancement designed to reduce the recharge of a single power should have an effect on the powers of pets as well.
Like if they made a MM set that gave enhanceable sonic bubbles and this happened would you be crying that you were no longer able to through Io's to increase the inherent resistance of your pets through a loophole? Or if putting in a heal effected the regen? Or end mod effected the end regen? The answer I'm seeing is yes, that you would consider (as a group, not sure about you in particular) that pets were completely and utterly gimped and that this was worse than ED, GDN, and all nerfs in general.
Sorry, I never tried to exploit the loophole so I'm pretty much going to be the same as (which apparently was gimp? 
).... and I will prob still use the Pet recharge set on my toons ..... but as it was intended.
[ QUOTE ]
Hey I want to move past this issue personally.
Can anyone point out a pet/pseudo-pet class that is benefiting from this change a lot?
I've played thugs, necro, and ninjas into the 30's and I make heavy use of binds so I never had issues with them getting stuck really. I did however really enjoy being able to make brusier, knights and jounin cycle their attacks faster.
I've also done earth and never had stoney really get stuck in hurl spam.
So what pet class is really going to notice an improvement that would be applicable to me?
keep in mind I DO spend a lot of time IO'ing and would like the toon to improve considerable like all the other archtypes get to enjoy. Or is it a matter of that optional system put in place to add value not applying to pet classes anymore?
Any pet/pseodo-pet heavy toon you guys can suggest? or should I just roll a ss/wp brute or an sr scrapper and be done with it?
thx
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't think of any because the only one pet that I have the MOST problem with is Jounin and this change won't make a difference.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how many things we don't see as bugs the Devs have left alone because they don't have that big effect yet. I'd imagine every time they tracked something back down to an old small bug that would need a big fix they go "Ohhh crap...they are going to hate this...NOT IT!"
[/ QUOTE ]
The policy of not advertising exploits tends to give the impression that the devs don't think a particular matter is a problem, when in fact they are busily trying to find a solution to it.
I can live with that. What I dislike is when they play balance a bugged power, then fix the bug and don't re-balance the power. Poison Gas Trap is a recent example. The list of such powers just expanded dramatically.
How long did it take for Castle to buff Hover after BABs nerfed it by fixing the bug regarding KB? I wonder if the buff was because data-mining said the number of people using it dropped off, or just because Castle decided it needed it? I hope the latter, because I'd rather not wait for data mining to confirm the obvious.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
how is VS op? it was sucky pre-io +rech discovery, and was brought up to be "ok" with io slotting...
[ QUOTE ]
Like if they made a MM set that gave enhanceable sonic bubbles and this happened would you be crying that you were no longer able to through Io's to increase the inherent resistance of your pets through a loophole?
[/ QUOTE ]
That wouldn't work anyways. HOWEVER, the loophole would be that Damage enhancements were buffing the Sonic Bubbles, because it would. But the Devs wouldn't make that mistake in the first place, so they'd prolly just make the bubbles uneffected by Enhancements and make the Bubbles buff for the unslottable difference.
FYI, that's why you can't enhance Henchmen Armour is because the Damage Enhancements would enhance it already.
[Edit]: For clarity.
[ QUOTE ]
*If recharge was never meant to boost a power like LS all they had to do was change it from using lightning bolt with cast+rech, to lightning bolt with activate period = 5 seconds akin to something like bonfire with an activate period of 2 sec.
The question is "why" it wasn't done?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because you're way smarter than a dev, obviously. 
(And honestly, had I thought of it and been coding the game, that's exactly how I would have done it. Although Blizzard is an AoE, so the fact that the Lighting is selecting individual targets might have an impact. Still, cool idea)
[ QUOTE ]
I guess he was right that the example was too simple. The point was not that an MM should match a Blaster's damage output, but that an MM should benefit from enhancement (and buffs) in the same proportion as a Blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, the MM's overall "baseline" is higher. Of course, you have to look beyond just DPS to see that.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Castle himself said that being able to slot multiple type Enhancements in a power that doesn't take them is a "bug" and that it remains that way only because the fix is unacceptable. I wouldn't make the assumption that no other solution is ever going to come along.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait... It's a bug that I can slot three of a set, that say gives me:
dmg
dmg/acc
dmg/acc/end
[/ QUOTE ]
It is a bug if that power does not TAKE Acc or End Enhancements. (I'm guessing it has to take Dmg, or it wouldn't take those particular IOs)
Or to be more precise, it is a bug if the power is effected by those Enhancement types that it doesn't take. It should be able to slot them, but the Acc and End just won't have any effect. (And obviously, if the power is autohit or costs 0 end it won't have an effect. The problem is if the effect is being disallowed for some reason, but if slotted it takes effect)
[ QUOTE ]
I am just saying now that you take away something that some MMs been enjoying (-recharge in pet's attack chain), are there gonna be some adjustments to make up for it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixing their pets' attack cycling generally makes up for it...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
[ QUOTE ]
Powers like Lightning Storm, Voltaic Sentinel and Auto Turret are precisely the powers that were targeted by this fix. Making exemptions for them would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Castle, but the 'purpose' is flawed. 'Unintented' does not automatically imply 'problematic'. In fact, you named precisely the three pets that are oft derided as having little utility.
I leveled a Storm/Elec defender to 50 in the fall of 2004 on the basis of having a 'fortress' type build for the team (hurricane, stationary LS and VS). The toon was enjoyable and marginally effective. Fast forward to today... ED, global defense reduction, HO reduction, mobile VS, VS damage reduction, no multiple VS ... and I have a toon that is not enjoyable and only scarely useful. To suggest that LS and VS should be reduced in effectiveness by making them unaffected by recharge? .. It just leaves me speechless.
If you can implement a workaround to the AI bugs by marking certain pets as unaffected by recharge, then knock yourself out. But leave LS, VS and Turret alone.
[ QUOTE ]
MMs have a lot of thorny balance issues like that though. For example: Having a red pill in the tray is worth less as it will only buff the damage of one of your pets if you use it, not all of the damage you are doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Comparing MMs to other ATs is a little difficult, as there are major differences in the way they play. Just for starters, Mastermind henchmen are capable of using attacks while other henchmen are still animating theirs. This is true of all pet users, but since Masterminds essentially ARE nothing but pets, for damage dealing purposes, the difference is exaggerated.
I tried to make a comparison between a Mastermind and a Blaster at the levels between 1 and 50 and found it was very hard. First of all, a Blaster's damage rises quickly as he gains more attacks and then levels off as his attack chain becomes saturated. Masterminds actually LOSE proportional damage as they level, reaching a very frustrating minimum at around level 22, and then their damage skyrockets at 32. This is typical of a Controller's damage curve, probably.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slotting regular Recharge enhancements into Fire Imps or Lightning Storm will make their power info windows *report* a reduced Recharge for their powers, but that is only a display error, and it will *not* actually reduce that Recharge.
<snip>
[/ QUOTE ]
Wonder if they are fixing the display window? or if people are just supposed to know that it does nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good question.
That's more of a pohsyb-issue than a Castle-issue, but it'd definitely be nice if the power info window was more accurate (it's not always trivial to get right though).
[/ QUOTE ]The issue is that the display window isn't wrong. The pet is still receiving that recharge buff, in the same way that a Willpower Tanker with Strength of Will still receives recharge buffs. The individual power just doesn't benefit from the recharge.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
How long did it take for Castle to buff Hover after BABs nerfed it by fixing the bug regarding KB? I wonder if the buff was because data-mining said the number of people using it dropped off, or just because Castle decided it needed it? I hope the latter, because I'd rather not wait for data mining to confirm the obvious.
[/ QUOTE ]
Completed unrelated. The two things had absolutely nothing to do with one another.
Thanks for continuing to post. I know I would have given up a long time ago.
I keep waiting for Castle to snap and post something that gets modded.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually in i7 pseudo-pets like LS were actually changed to inherent the casters' state. Now rech (ie hasten, speedboost) "may" not have been intended, but I find that very hard to believe that it wasn't known to be happening like claimed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Known? Yes. Statistically significant (as in, a noticeable blip in datamining), no. That came later.
[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean statistically significant? Its either you know its going to effect recharge or it isnt. You dont need datamining to know that. Just what exactly were you guys shooting for on this? Is it that you all didnt expect or want it be effected by IOs and +recharge powers but having it just effected by +recharge powers was ok? Are you saying the only way to fix it was to just to disallow all recharge instead of just saying it can just gain only the buffs on the caster? All the datamining did was just prove the powers were subpar and the main way people got past that was with all the extra slotting. To me it would make sense to fix the powers in addition to this fix to all pets you are doing. But I got the feeling the datamining is saying the power is overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
It means they knew that it was happening. But didn't know how much of an impact it would have on the game as a whole.
"Pets recharge is affected? Eh, it'll be fine"
*one datamine later*
"HOLY CRAP, look at these numbers!"
Though perhaps not QUITE like that. You get the idea
[/ QUOTE ]
will the mainly insignificant effect it had on the game come anywhere close to the effect the fix will have on the game? Not being able to debuff pets looks to be much bigger than not having recharge inherit.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Things like the Zombie Apocalypse or Rikti Invasion would be horrendously affected. Hammi raids might need to be redone again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. Could we redo hami raids to be more like a zombie invasion?
I mean, instead of a massive amount of cyto's spawning in all at once, just have them spawn like a zombie spawn wave.
I mean, hami starts out by himself, but invulnerable. When you aggro him, he spawns a single wave of master cytos, each also invulnerable. About the same number and the same spacing as a standard hami cyto compliment. Each master cyto when aggroed causes zombie-event-like continuous spawns of standard cytos until enough are killed to make the master vulnerable. When all the masters are killed, Hami becomes vulnerable but starts spawning zombie-event-like continuing waves of regular cytos (and/or giant monsters even) at the same time.
I mean, the zombie events have pleasantly-balanced spawn structure. Hami is in very sore need for balanced spawning. The zombie events spawning structure makes it very feasible to keep a high population cap in zones where it occurs. Hami is in incredibly sore need for a higher population cap on the zone.
I mean, it just makes a lot of sense.