Reformed Badge

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Way to man up to your mistake Positron. It takes a lot of courage to go out in front of a fanbase as rabid and opinionated as we can be, and admit in no uncertain terms that you feel you did them wrong.

My hat's off to you.

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I agree. Thanks Posi, it makes my respect for the dev team of this game grow.

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Someone really needs to look at those COV family though. The untouchable badge requires CoH Family bosses, they are sparsely scattered in missions and in Nerva, and some of the Family bosses in Nerva give credit towards gangbuster instead. Ask Phil and the people that place mobs to look at the family bosses for Marcone in the description (placed mobs in Nerva and Sharkhead). Also when the rewards were removed from the infamous family farms, the family bosses lost all progress towards the Untouchable badge.

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I really agree with this. Ideally, Untouchable should be made unavailable for villains, all Family bosses would count for Gangbuster, and the weapon options that unlock for Untouchable would also be available for Gangbuster.

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Sure, lets take badges away from people that worked hard to earn it, so you don't have to. Clearly we have different definitions of "ideal". lol

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Is it really so far out there to think a major expansion is in the offing?

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Thinking about it is fine. Circulating it as fact is another matter entirely.

Remember the sturm and drang over bases last issue? Most of it was because people took a few comments about big changes to bases blown wildly out of proportion.

After the fact it turns out they were planning to revamp base raiding. That is indeed a big change. However the community meme grabbed ahold of one or two comments and came to expect a full on revamp of how things work for bases, and was very disappointed when it didn't happen.

This is what I'm talking about. People need to hold their horses and wait until something more substantive is released, or they're going to be disappointed.

Because if you recall, that survey you mentioned specifically stated that nothing listed as a possible option should be considered confirmed or even likely. Does anyone remember that (very important) bit? no, they just aggregate it with a bunch of other isolated comments and try to call it evidence, and people who don't spend time looking at this stuff think it's confirmed and get pissed.

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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

Could we please get some rethinking done on the "No Badge Credit for Mobs in Mission Architect Missions" thing? There is no practical reason why they shouldn't give badge credit for Defeat badges.

It would DEFINITELY ease things Villainside for things like Weatherman, Regenerator, and the other hair-pulling-must-farm badges.

Of course, I realize this is falling on deaf ears, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

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Could we please get some rethinking done on the "No Badge Credit for Mobs in Mission Architect Missions" thing? There is no practical reason why they shouldn't give badge credit for Defeat badges.

It would DEFINITELY ease things Villainside for things like Weatherman, Regenerator, and the other hair-pulling-must-farm badges.

Of course, I realize this is falling on deaf ears, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

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Actually...now that we have an official ear to bend about badges (Synapse)...can we have a discussion issue about badge issues?

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I wonder what the response would have been if Positron spelled out all of the history behind this decision, but elected NOT to reinstate the Reformed badge for heroes? I can certainly see a good argument for not doing it and saying that heroes need to wait for side-switching to come in.

I certainly respect Positron for laying out the reasons, but that's a separate issue from getting access to the badge or not blueside.

Also: bring on side-switching! :-)

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I wonder what the response would have been if Positron spelled out all of the history behind this decision, but elected NOT to reinstate the Reformed badge for heroes?

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I would have been annoyed and asked to have the badge removed from heroes that had the badge. Yes, it would mean that I would lose two badges as well.

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Is it really so far out there to think a major expansion is in the offing?

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Thinking about it is fine. Circulating it as fact is another matter entirely.

Remember the sturm and drang over bases last issue? Most of it was because people took a few comments about big changes to bases blown wildly out of proportion.

After the fact it turns out they were planning to revamp base raiding. That is indeed a big change. However the community meme grabbed ahold of one or two comments and came to expect a full on revamp of how things work for bases, and was very disappointed when it didn't happen.

This is what I'm talking about. People need to hold their horses and wait until something more substantive is released, or they're going to be disappointed.

Because if you recall, that survey you mentioned specifically stated that nothing listed as a possible option should be considered confirmed or even likely. Does anyone remember that (very important) bit? no, they just aggregate it with a bunch of other isolated comments and try to call it evidence, and people who don't spend time looking at this stuff think it's confirmed and get pissed.

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Which is why I was careful to label my post as just what it was: wild speculation.

You're absolutely right about the way these things can take on a life of their own; in fact, that's kind of what I was hoping for: a firestorm of rumor and speculation that would eventually elicit some form of response from a red name.

You say it's been tried before? You say they just don't respond to speculation? You say that wild rumormongering will never produce a good end? Maybe the past speculation just hasn't been wild enough; maybe we've just never come up with a theory insane enough to be refuted; maybe what's really needed here is more wild speculation. So here it is:

Within weeks, NCSoft will announce a paid expansion revolving around a war between an underwater kingdom of Incarnate Avilans with customizable powers and an invading fleet of moon-based Blood of the Black Stream shapeshifters on jetpack ponies.

In fact, all I'm doing is answering the challenge Positron presented in another post:

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Here’s a bit of a teaser: We have big plans for these (and other) badges, and we really want them to mean something to your character. If you are in a dialog tree that involves creating something, we have the ability to look at your badges and see if you have taken the effort to prove yourself as a crafter. This effort would be rewarded with special options in the dialog tree that earn you better results, enable you to skip steps, etc. For this system to work, we’ll need them to be a reasonable indicator of the amount of work a crafter has put into crafting. And it’s not just dialog trees that are going to look at badges, and it’s not just crafting badges that will be looked at, so you guys can speculate away!

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Besides; if people want responsible reporting, reliable information, and useful tidbits, they can read the fine work you guys do on the City Scoop. But for the Yin of that, the forums also need the Yang of people like me: loud-mouthed lunatics spouting whatever drivel crosses our fevered, twisted, little minds.

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Someone really needs to look at those COV family though. The untouchable badge requires CoH Family bosses, they are sparsely scattered in missions and in Nerva, and some of the Family bosses in Nerva give credit towards gangbuster instead. Ask Phil and the people that place mobs to look at the family bosses for Marcone in the description (placed mobs in Nerva and Sharkhead). Also when the rewards were removed from the infamous family farms, the family bosses lost all progress towards the Untouchable badge.

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I really agree with this. Ideally, Untouchable should be made unavailable for villains, all Family bosses would count for Gangbuster, and the weapon options that unlock for Untouchable would also be available for Gangbuster.

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Sure, lets take badges away from people that worked hard to earn it, so you don't have to. Clearly we have different definitions of "ideal". lol

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Um, where did I say that those that earned it should have it taken away? Or for that matter that I haven't earned mine?

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Now when will they admit the mistake that is i13 PvP?

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I agree, although I understand how badgers would like to see side-switching happen.

What I could see as a compromise is a new AT that can 'jump the fence' so to speak. Something morally ambiguous to begin with, say working for Crey Industries?

Just an idea,
Grizz

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An idea I disagree with heartily. Everything in Crey's history points to them being Villains with bad publicity. And lots of mind control. Mostly mind control, from my experiences.

They only thing giving them any 'feelings' of morality are the fact they actually want good publicity, and I'm not sure that qualifies as an heroic trait.

I can't see how it's a compromise so much as a different idea altogether.

Personally, I'm all for side switching- and it has nothing to do with badges and everything to do with character evolution! I don't see much logic in limiting 'good' or 'evil' to the powers one ends up with, but rather how they use them.

Also.. I want to get that badge now! I tried the 'be confused and attack Longbow' on my controller, but not nearly long enough to actually get it!

Also- I am soo looking forward to more I 14 news!

Shelly Girl

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J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!

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Fast forward to Issue 10: Invasion. We now introduced a mission that heroes could take that involves them going up against rogue Longbow agents. Suddenly there was a “legitimate” way to earn the badge. I use quotes around that because earning the badge involves farming the mission over and over to get the requisite 1000 defeats needed for it.

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Not really.

While farming the mission is certainly one way to get the badge, running thru the RWZ arc with different friends and PUG teams on multiple different occasions with the same character is another way of getting it. And given the presence of Vanguard merits, it's not so unbelievable a scenario, either.

That's not farming, so the quotes around legitimate can be nixed. I've made a fair degree of progress on that badge on one character without even trying.

FYI.

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Also when the rewards were removed from the infamous family farms, those family bosses lost all ability to earn credit towards the Untouchable badge.

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Have you bugged this ingame? Sounds like the old Portal-BP-Mask issue, and we got them to let those count

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You have my respect, Posi, for saying, "I see now that I had made a mistake based on an emotional reaction." It's much harder to admit to a mistake than many people realise, and that's especially true for someone in a position of authority.

/e hat off

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"We knew it would someday be possible for a villain to turn into a hero or vice versa"--Okay...now I am getting excited.

Oh, and again, you tell me something I dont know, I tell you something


The highest per capita Jell-O comsumption in the US is Des Moines.

Bill Cosby does not live in Des Moines, probably due to the fact that he likes Pudding Pops.

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Dude you are reading my mind, or am I reading yours?

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If its broke, don't fix it... I like the chaos!

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Could we please get some rethinking done on the "No Badge Credit for Mobs in Mission Architect Missions" thing? There is no practical reason why they shouldn't give badge credit for Defeat badges.

It would DEFINITELY ease things Villainside for things like Weatherman, Regenerator, and the other hair-pulling-must-farm badges.

Of course, I realize this is falling on deaf ears, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

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I can understand people wanting a better way to get some of the harder badges, but I'm not sure I want to wade through a ton of badge missions in the MA to get to the ones that have a cool story.

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Could we please get some rethinking done on the "No Badge Credit for Mobs in Mission Architect Missions" thing? There is no practical reason why they shouldn't give badge credit for Defeat badges.

It would DEFINITELY ease things Villainside for things like Weatherman, Regenerator, and the other hair-pulling-must-farm badges.

Of course, I realize this is falling on deaf ears, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

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I can understand people wanting a better way to get some of the harder badges, but I'm not sure I want to wade through a ton of badge missions in the MA to get to the ones that have a cool story.

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And?

Change the phrase "ton of badge missions" to anything. "Ton of Malta missions" or "Ton of crappy missions" or "Ton of girlfight missions" and it would not be measurably different. Not to mention the fact that "cool story" is so subjective as to be a worthless measurement for an arc's worth.

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QR, with quotes

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Just so it's clear, he said it was their intent several years ago in discussions when it was still a Cryptic title. That doesn't mean things haven't changed and it's still going to happen.

Please don't turn this into a meme folks. If it happens it happens. But if it doesn't people are gonna rant and rave and moan and cry because forumgoers are putting the broadest possible spin on a comment that is ambiguous at best.

Like Posi said it was their plan "back then" The rest of the post makes it pretty clear that things have changed since then. Please don't hold him to something without looking at the big picture.

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As far as side-switching goes, this is what I got out of Posi's post as well.

If anything, I'd give it LESS of a chance of happening now, since they gave the badge back, but I don't think the chance of it happening has changed at all.

Personally, I'd prefer it not happen... I honestly believe it would make a number of AT's somewhat obselete.

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Someone really needs to look at those COV family though. The untouchable badge requires CoH Family bosses, they are sparsely scattered in missions and in Nerva, and some of the Family bosses in Nerva give credit towards gangbuster instead. Ask Phil and the people that place mobs to look at the family bosses for Marcone in the description (placed mobs in Nerva and Sharkhead). Also when the rewards were removed from the infamous family farms, the family bosses lost all progress towards the Untouchable badge.

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I really agree with this. Ideally, Untouchable should be made unavailable for villains, all Family bosses would count for Gangbuster, and the weapon options that unlock for Untouchable would also be available for Gangbuster.

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Except that some of us already have both badges. I'd say a more "ideal" solution would be to simply remove Marcone types from the spawns near the docks in Nerva, and leave it at that, or perhaps find an area to make a warzone between the two "families", where each spawn has at least one of each.

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The truth can be a potent weapon. Thank you for sharing it with us and for having the courage to wield it.

--Fate

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Why poop on others fun?

Villains can still be Villains and heroes can still be heroes, they just don't change sides if they don't want to. Side-switching would add a whole new world of content to both sides and most of all: would be fun.

Not saying its going to happen, but the option would be wonderful.

CoH and V is one game now. Why not actually make it one game?

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QR: Everyone has pretty much said what needed to be said, but I felt like I had to include my own, brief, thoughts.

Firstly, thanks for the explanation. It wasn't so much the decision that bothered me, it was being deliberately ignored. I say "deliberate" because a few of the threads were modded--so red names knew what was going on.

Finally:
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I use quotes around that because earning the badge involves farming the mission over and over to get the requisite 1000 defeats needed for it.

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Are you saying that the RWZ arcs aren't worth doing more than once? Or aren't worth teaming with people for? It isn't necessary to farm anything for this badge. One or two times through this arc with a big enough team will get you there in no time at all.

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Phil and I decided to go back and reinstate the Reformed badge for Heroes.

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I would really like to say a BIG thank you to Positron and Synapse for fixing this up for the player base.

I got my 1000th Longbow defeat a few days into i13 and being denied 2 badges on my main badge collector toon with no explanation why except "This badge is not intended for Heroes" response I got from my petitions to GM's was SO frustrating!

I look forward to i14 for reasons beyond the Mission Architect now.... YAY!

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As far as side-switching goes, this is what I got out of Posi's post as well.

If anything, I'd give it LESS of a chance of happening now, since they gave the badge back, but I don't think the chance of it happening has changed at all.

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I didn't see anything in his post that confirmed that the reason for the badge being removed was because of side-switching. Rather, the badge existed in the first place because of alternate naming for potential side-switching. The rationale for its removal does not seem predicated on side-switching - nowhere did he say, "So that we could have side-switching, we took it out." Absent that, your conclusion above doesn't make much sense.

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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.

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Yes, I had heard the concerns of a few vocal badge aficionados, and I fell on the wrong side of the argument (it’s amazing, but sometimes being insulted makes you feel MORE right than you probably should).

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I don't self-identify as a vocal badge aficionado, I'm just vocal. While there is still residual attention on this issue, and at the risk of swimming upstream on the general current of the thread, I'd like to stick to my original guns and reiterate something I stated in a couple of places here and there. A couple of years ago, I made a comment with regard to ED and Statesman's comment that "powers wouldn't be radically changing after the I5 GDN changes." What I asked was that even if Jack didn't think that was a misleading statement, wasn't there anyone in all of Cryptic who might have warned him. I specifically said "Is there no one at Cryptic that suggested that was the case? I would have at least mentioned it in the hallway."

Positron, if you're reading, I'm sure you make a hundred little decisions every day, and it can be difficult to tell which ones are going to ultimately end up being especially noteworthy. However, I think that a general statement can be made that theoretically any change that specifically alters whether players can earn a reward, revokes a reward, or significantly alters the method of earning a reward is a potential troublespot.

Acknowledging the fact that some changes have additional special issues (Exploit-related changes) I think specifically because you and whoever else works on rewards see a ton of little details we players do not see, its very easy to get tunnel-visioned into thinking all decisions are just technical implementation decisions, and not sometimes highly consequential ones for the players. Because of course, enhancements have nothing to do with powers. For that reason, I believe its essential that there be someone "in the hallway" to warn you when a reward-relevant change might be a critical one that requires extra attention. And it can't be the people working on rewards eight hours a day. Maybe you should consider somehow circulating reward-based changes to the rest of the team for feedback, so that the rest of your devs that *don't* work on rewards have an opportunity to warn you when you're about to run into potential trouble.

They've all got their own fish to fry, to be sure, but I have to believe you have the occasional meeting among the major players for designing the game, if not everyone. An agenda item that says "we're making changes to these rewards, take two minutes to let me know if we screwed up somewhere" could head the next issue like this off at the pass. I know you have badgers and "repetitive task executors" and such on-staff. My guess is that at least one of your staff is also a reward-junkie of some kind off the clock and can at least partially represent those interests. It might end up being a very rewarding two minutes of time.

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I'll like to chime in and agree with the thread.

1) Thanks Posi and Synpase for discussing this and coming to the conclusion you did. I14 is not too far off for the fix to come.

2) A huge thanks Posi for being open about the process and how things come about. The Dev communication in this game is second to none, and is a big reason why we have such a great community.

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This

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