No plans to release Black Wolf/Elemental Order separately.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-27 13:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
For everyone saying "this is a problem"... Paragon's open admittance to the wild success of Super Pack 1 and thusly making Super Pack 2 strongly, strongly just cements that while a few people are upset, the massive majority of the game (AKA: Not the minority of the forums, you're the super minority, remember?) enjoys them.
At this point, I safely can say..
And that while it is important to know people are upset, not matter how few they are?
Wrong way to go about it folks. Comparing them to certain companies and the like and threatening Paragon is a strong-arm. If you're so fickle to quit if you don't get your way, and they already know not everyone can be pleased...
... Yeah. Bad strategy.
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doh I feel like an idiot |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Anyone subbing can use the 400 point stipend to claim super packs regardless of what teir they have unlocked. Tier 9 VIP's just have an extra option to get them with Reward Tokens.
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how the heck did I forget about the stipend.
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Well 'unobtainable' apart from craig list, ebay, post lucky bag swap meet?|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
But people do. Palladium (the company that does RIFTS P&P RPG) used to do a (exact numbers may be different but this was the sense of it) "you give us $15, we give you $20 worth of random goodies" some of which could be unobtainable otherwise as a Christmas promo every year and they were always oversubscribed.
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People forget when they defend these packs, with the whole 'Magic/Yuigioh is gambling too lololol' counter, that I can purchase the exact cards I want through other means, since it is a physical product.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Well, that doesn't change the 'gambling' one bit.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Well 'unobtainable' apart from craig list, ebay, post lucky bag swap meet?
People forget when they defend these packs, with the whole 'Magic/Yuigioh is gambling too lololol' counter, that I can purchase the exact cards I want through other means, since it is a physical product. |
That's an argument about "exclusivity"-- totally unrelated. Drop the "gambling" distraction and focus on the nature of exclusive, non-transferable content, if that's the issue.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Well, that doesn't change the 'gambling' one bit.
That's an argument about "exclusivity"-- totally unrelated. Drop the "gambling" distraction and focus on the nature of exclusive, non-transferable content, if that's the issue. |
Oh but the gambling is part of it.
The only way to get the costumes, 'exclusivly' is to gamble.
There is no purchase the costume parts from the store, or from the CH, you want the costume pack you have to gamble for it. There is no alternative, you either gamble or you don't have them.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Turns out I have everything but the details 2 face mask. Doh. 'Common' indeed.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I don't even know if I have all the Elemental Order pieces. Maybe? Maybe not!
It would really irk me to have an incomplete set, but I'm not going to go 'pack-diving' just for a helmet or a beam rifle or whatever. |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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My point is, why can they not put the costume, at the very least, as a separate pack AS WELL? Then everyone wins. Money is still passed over for content, which can then go into more development. WHY is this such a big PANCAKING issue for people to get?
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
But people do. Palladium (the company that does RIFTS P&P RPG) used to do a (exact numbers may be different but this was the sense of it) "you give us $15, we give you $20 worth of random goodies" some of which could be unobtainable otherwise as a Christmas promo every year and they were always oversubscribed.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Anyway, they're not. What time-ish could they be expected?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Super Packs 2 should be on Beta tomorrow, so be sure to check them out if you're VIP.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Because that's not the point. Zwillinger himself explained that people weren't buying the consumables as much as the Marketing team wanted, and this seems like an attempt to shove consumables in people's faces and go "See? See? Now don't you like it? Don't you want more?" with about the same regard as my mother trying to convince me to try a new type of food when I was nine.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
My point is, why can they not put the costume, at the very least, as a separate pack AS WELL? Then everyone wins. Money is still passed over for content, which can then go into more development. WHY is this such a big PANCAKING issue for people to get?
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Moreover, people have spent over $200 on those things in search for the costumes or the pet or just out of rotten luck. Making these things a gamble is an attempt to make the actual average cost of the item higher than it would have been if it were sold regularly, yet still make many people feel like they got a bargain. Even when they didn't. Oh, sure, it might have cost you 800 PP to get an otherwise 400 PP set, but look at all the OTHER stuff you got!
That's marketing at its purest, and I can't say I'm thrilled.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My friend really wants a Red Jelly Baby, unfortunately you can't buy them individually, so now he has to purchase a packet in the hope he gets a Red jelly baby in it.
My other friend has just got back from the casino he bet his house, car, children, he's complete collection of Prisoner Cell Block H DVD's and he's underpants he has wore for 7 straight years, he gambled on Red.......
I can tell the difference.
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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Zwill left himself wiggle room by saying "should be" instead of "will be", so it's possible they won't show up today at all.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Anyway, they're not. What time-ish could they be expected?
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I would happily spend Paragon Points to get them if Paragon Studios would give me a way to get points without a credit card and without giving vital financial information out on the internet. Some sort of point card, perhaps. You know, like every other micro-transaction based game ever to exist has done.
Paragon Studios needs to stop applying old-word sales strategies to new-world business models, get with the times, and offer some way for us to get points with cold hard cash.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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I doubt the authenticity of your stories.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
My friend really wants a Red Jelly Baby, unfortunately you can't buy them individually, so now he has to purchase a packet in the hope he gets a Red jelly baby in it.
My other friend has just got back from the casino he bet his house, car, children, he's complete collection of Prisoner Cell Block H DVD's and he's underpants he has wore for 7 straight years, he gambled on Red....... |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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a period of exclusivity for the costume pieces to be in the sp program, once that period expires, maybe when they ar replaced by the next one then it is offered in the market, i will grudgingly accept even a slight increase in price . gamers(and people in general) are not exactly known for their impulse control, see bethesda's horse armor being wildly profitable, even though it was supposedly reviled and was functionally limited, so the preferred method of getting them would still be supported for people to gamble, but those with objections to it can, after a period of time, get them as well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you're 100% adamant about your position, what common ground do you hope will eventually exist?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I am going to continue buying Super Packs en-masse and supporting NOT releasing the exclusives in them in any alternative means.
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I feel the same way, myself. I've never been a fan of infinite exclusivity, and would rather things remain exclusive for a time only, upon which point they're made widely available. That's my position both for exclusive things I want and for exclusive things I own. Elemental Order is, to me, not functionally different from Celestial Armour.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
a period of exclusivity for the costume pieces to be in the sp program, once that period expires, maybe when they ar replaced by the next one then it is offered in the market, i will grudgingly accept even a slight increase in price . gamers(and people in general) are not exactly known for their impulse control, see bethesda's horse armor being wildly profitable, even though it was supposedly reviled and was functionally limited, so the preferred method of getting them would still be supported for people to gamble, but those with objections to it can, after a period of time, get them as well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And the person who had rotten luck and only got, say, two pieces? Or didn't have the extra income to keep buying a bunch of points? Or JUST hit tier 9 and used the only token they had to try? Or the people who re/join a month after the packs go away?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
But, let me put it this way: There's no plans to release them outside of Packs at this time. I support this 100%. Buy the packs, or don't get the set. Use your stipend, or don't get the set. Either way, it's not 'gambling' and that's annoying to hear time and time again.
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What do you tell them? "Ha, ha, you suck, I'm so awesome for having these?"
Frankly, I'd rather give *everyone* a chance to pick them up if desired. Maintain a period of exclusivity, that's fine - but release them separately later.
Or, quite honestly... release the pieces as recipes - no, make that tokens. Something that can be traded, put on the auction house, drop from enemies, crafted, whatever. Find a similar way to release the wolf - defeat Shadowhunter (any version) 10x or something.
Paragon's made their money from the "gotta have it now" crowd. Release it for everyone *else* after a short period.
And again, for the record, I have all the pieces on both accounts. I have bought/redeemed tokens for .. probably far too many packs, mostly for merits and the AOTs. (Never did get the wolf, but I wasn't shooting for it.) So this is not "I don't have it" or "I won't buy it." I want others to have a chance to enjoy these after this is done and gone.
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and it is equally easy to exaggerate the deleterious effects by thinking it would hugely affect them. I am not going to pretend that i can say with certainty that they wouldnt lose some purchases of super packs if the option of getting the costumes was eventually going to be sold, but In as much as i have seen of human nature, people who wait are not the norm, a portion of the other people who are adamantly against superpacks have admitted buying packs to get the costume parts, So while actual market information could obviously change my mind over simple anecdotes, timed exclusives are a part of gaming, they provide incentives for a type of purchase while not punishing others for not wanting to make that sort of purchase, I'm currently waiting out a 30 day timed exclusive for dawnguard because i like to play elder scrolls games on pc, i can wait. Furthermore, locking things behind exclusives forever really is the tactic of the garbage freemos that I have dallied with here and there, and it was always a source of annoyance for me, and is part of why i describe them as i do and dont play them.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't doubt that, but the point was that its very easy to say there are alternatives and claim to be willing to accept the potentially very deleterious problems associated with those alternatives when you have no direct stake in whether those problems actually arise.
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so to answer, i dont know, if you do, and i know you have had more hands on with the industry, by all means show your sources so I can be duly enlightened, but I just see the buy it now mentality being strong enough to maintain the profitability, ANd get an extra bit of money and goodwill from players who feel, at the moment, strong armed.
finally, lets be honest, we all have a stake in the game, if it crashes, We all lost the game, and if it loses profitability then we get less content, but there are good ideas and there are strong arm tactics. There are a number of horrible practices that the aforementioned freemos do that make them money and may, for a time, make coh money, but would be hostile to the playerbase, There should be a balance between seeing players as valued customers and treating them well, and seeing them as faceless dollar signs to shake down for everything they have got. I pay a sub, have never let it drop, and have purchased very nearly every costume and powerset, im not penny pinching here, but If i start seeing the game degrade to the profitable but hostile practices of the freemos, then im gone, and so is the sub and market cash.
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Pretty much this and nothing more. If you can't get on this train you are just going to be late to the game. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
Furthermore, locking things behind exclusives forever really is the tactic of the garbage freemos.
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If their defense they did say they were not closed just not for sometime. If they wait more than 6 months that is pushing it, a year would be a bummer but never? Nah never is for scrubs.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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What claim? I'm specifically talking about your claim here:|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Any proof of your claim?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
My stance is this: More people bought the super packs than not.
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If you meant my statement of:
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And just like other Tier 9 VIP stuff, there is only so much room in the window, and it has been said repeatedly that when they bring in new stuff for that level, old stuff goes away. This is because they don't want that line cluttered and they don't have a person that can be spared to do the interface work.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
All I can go by is Paragon's open statement of the extreme success of the Super Packs, so much they designed a second round of them instead of dropping them dead. We were openly told they were successful during the... Pummit, I believe? Or one of the live streams.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
To that end, Burden Proof You etc etc. Or Paragon could be lying, nobody bought them, and they're giving it another go because masochism.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Either way, it's not 'gambling' and that's annoying to hear time and time again.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I get not wanting to spend money for the chance at an item. I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling as I believe it's all a matter of personal perspective and the value that you personally place on the items that are included in Super Packs. If you're only after specific items and only place value on said things, I can understand how you would feel adverse towards the packs.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
For everyone saying "this is a problem"... Paragon's open admittance to the wild success of Super Pack 1 and thusly making Super Pack 2 strongly, strongly just cements that while a few people are upset, the massive majority of the game
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As to your claim that they were so successful that they made the second pack. Take a look at this post from November 2011:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
There's some confirmed updates I can now share with you all:
- The base price per pack for the first series of Super Packs is set at 80 Paragon Points. When we mentioned at the Pummit that the packs would be priced lower than 350 points, we couldn't share just *how* much lower, mainly because that was still in discussion. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To those concerned about costumes being available exclusively through the Super Packs; We hear you, and we're open to the idea of making them available through an alternate means (obviously there would be some give and take with this). It's something we're discussing, but we haven't made a decision yet.
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They clearly don't want to do that.
That alone, after 7 months, shows that they were NOT interested in exploring alternate means. If they were they would have instead have plans to make them available at a later date. This same mentality has prevented the CoH and CoV box set stuff from going onto the market.
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Despite them saying they are not closed I think this is a bit more accurate. They certainly seem to be rather slow in their thinking about the delivery system. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
That alone, after 7 months, shows that they were NOT interested in exploring alternate means. If they were they would have instead have plans to make them available at a later date. This same mentality has prevented the CoH and CoV box set stuff from going onto the market.
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Any game of chance that involves anything of monetary value is gambling.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
OK, now I'm looking back a little more and I'm reading that the only thing that's going to happen is that the only thing that's happening is that SP1 is going to be rotated out for the SP2 in terms of Paragon Rewards token redemption. If that's the extent of it, then I'll admit slight overreaction on my part.
It'd still be nice to have the EO parts available outside, even if it was a limited time deal for two weeks like the Halloween/Valentine/Pocket D costumes, but (failing that) if the Super Packs aren't going away from the Market then I'd consider (money and points depending) breaking down one day and going for it on Live.
(I did test them out on Beta, but they were free at the time.)
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Yes they appear to be waiting for you and others to "breakdown" as well. I have never liked how they have handled the Supergamble Packs and the exclusives and the latest statement by Z makes it no better.
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Originally Posted by QuarriosSoul
OK, now I'm looking back a little more and I'm reading that the only thing that's going to happen is that the only thing that's happening is that SP1 is going to be rotated out for the SP2 in terms of Paragon Rewards token redemption. If that's the extent of it, then I'll admit slight overreaction on my part.
It'd still be nice to have the EO parts available outside, even if it was a limited time deal for two weeks like the Halloween/Valentine/Pocket D costumes, but (failing that) if the Super Packs aren't going away from the Market then I'd consider (money and points depending) breaking down one day and going for it on Live. (I did test them out on Beta, but they were free at the time.) |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Gee, as I recall, there was originally only 3 spots for the Celestial set and then it was increased to SIX so they could have two full sets listed at once. So there is actually precedent that they could have BOTH super packs at the same time and only remove the oldest when a THIRD one is released.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And just like other Tier 9 VIP stuff, there is only so much room in the window, and it has been said repeatedly that when they bring in new stuff for that level, old stuff goes away.
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The Superpacks have a set cost, of which you will always receive a group of items for that are worth that much. Let me restate - The items you get in a Superpack are, monetarily, the value of the points you are paying for them. You always get your amount of points worth of 'stuff' when a pack is purchased (actually, you get quite a lot more than that, given that if you bought the items from any one Superpack individually from the Store, it'd cost a lot more than 80 Paragon Points).|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Any game of chance that involves anything of monetary value is gambling.
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There is literally no chance at all of spending money and gaining nothing, like actual gambling.
I understand that people might feel slighted about the 'chance' aspects for items they'd rather get and that the personal value of the various items will vary from person to person. However, while that might influence personal decisions to purchase the packs, the fact remains that the Packs are not, money-wise, gambling.
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