No plans to release Black Wolf/Elemental Order separately.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-27 13:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Well, they got more money out of me because I had to buy the packs to get the costume set. That was what I wanted most. I spent... what was it, 800 or 1200 points for 24 packs? If I could have spent 500 points for just the costume set I would have, and they'd have made less money. That probably applies to a lot of people too.
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Disappointing news, to be sure. I'd like to be able to get the Elemental Order stuff, but I've been holding off on buying super packs completely because there are other things I can and prefer to get as a direct transaction. (Powersets, other costumes, etc.)
Please consider releasing the EO costumes, I'd buy them even if they end up being slightly more than regular pieces.
I have no problem with things being "exclusive" for a while. The Celestial set was like that. The preorder sprints were like that (though you didn't pay extra money for them.)
I'd be fine if these were set to remain "exclusive" items for a while - say, the H/V packs go away, and the set shows up on its own six months later. I'm *perfectly* fine with that.
But "We just won't?" That's the sort of thing that immediately sours any goodwill Paragon Studios builds up. There's absolutely no logic to it. You made money off of the H/V packs for it. So, you don't want to... make... more money from the people that didn't get everything (or anything,) or join / return later?
What's the sense in that?
Paragon, I have other items on my account (the COV CE and COH CE) with "exclusive" items (Arachnos cape, Cape of the Four Winds, Prestige Power Slide.) I bought the COV CE when it was *new* and cost $80 or so. I've always understood the "We won't give away for free something you've paid extra for," and think that's a perfectly sensible stance. However, you'll also find, in pretty much all the threads on those items, that I support making them available in the Paragon Market.
Let me say I support fully the request to make the Elemental Order and Black Wolf "exclusive" items on the market, as well. If you want to put in a time delay (six months,) ok, fine - it even makes sense from a marketing standpoint (not to mention that would put the release near christmas, when people want to spend money on "stuff" anyway.)
Saying "No, we don't want to do this at all?" Poor decision, and really I expect that to be better thought through. This is a poor business decision, and a poor community relations decision.
I get not wanting to spend money for the chance at an item. I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling as I believe it's all a matter of personal perspective and the value that you personally place on the items that are included in Super Packs. If you're only after specific items and only place value on said things, I can understand how you would feel adverse towards the packs.
What are some things to consider?
- We're going to continue making Super Packs in a responsible way. We believe that part of the success of the first series of Super Packs was the fact that we collaborated closely with the Community during their development. Did we completely agree with every single point given by the Community? No. Did we compromise and rethink several aspects of the original concept of Super Packs? Absolutely. Things like making ATO's able to be acquired in game, making Catalysts drop in game and allowing Super Packs to be purchased with Reward Tokens are all examples of player feedback directly resulting in positive change.
- The success of Super Packs directly contributes to our ability to continue to make new content, both free and in the Paragon Market. Believe it or not, not everything we release in the Paragon Market is profitable, from a development standpoint. They may be popular with a segment of the population, and great QOL improvements, but that doesn't necessarily equate it being considered successful from a business standpoint.
- We're not closed off to the idea of making costume sets from Super Packs available via an alternate method, however it's going to be some time before we offer it. We've made this statement regarding things like the Tier 9 Paragon Rewards, and the same is true about Super Packs.
-Z
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
I'm ok with them not offering alternate means ONLY if the T9 VIP reward token remains an option for purchasing any superpack, not just the newest one. Retiring old super packs from that transaction is a terrible idea.
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You're doing that 'reasonable' thing again. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I get not wanting to spend money for the chance at an item. I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling as I believe it's all a matter of personal perspective and the value that you personally place on the items that are included in Super Packs. If you're only after specific items and only place value on said things, I can understand how you would feel adverse towards the packs.
What are some things to consider?
-Z |
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Easy: they want you to pay for the packs to get what you want, not wait X months so you can cherry-pick the few pieces you're interested in. If you don't think that's an equitable way of doing business then don't buy it. But don't argue that there's some imperative to make the items you want available outside of the chosen format, because there just isn't.
| What's the sense in that? |
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Well, technically since it happens here, it does in fact happen.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I do not go into a shop to buy something and get told I have to buy a lucky-dip bag to get the items I specifically want. That DOES NOT HAPPEN. So why the almighty smeg is it happening here?
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| After there was ALREADY a load of outcry against this stuff the first time around? |
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The whole purpose of the Super Packs is gambling. The Super Packs are designed almost perfectly to make them money. Why the heck would they give up the golden goose. The wolf pet is a vanity item. No one can accuse them of P2W with those. The ATOs they most certainly can which is why they are earnable in game.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
On today's TwitchTV stream, it was revealed that there are NO PLANS to release the Costume/Vanity stuff from the Super Pack because:
"We have not decided we want to do that. Again, we are open to the idea, but we haven't decided if we even want to do that yet. And the reason is that you can get Super Packs via Paragon Rewards Tokens, which a lot of people have taken advantage of that." Worse, they are discontinuing the Paragon Rewards option for Super Pack 1 when Super Pack 2 comes out. This means that players objecting to spending real money to gamble for the chance to get a costume set will have no other means to get the costume parts, and that is if they don't "retire" the original Super Packs from the store as well when the next set comes online. From Zwillinger's body language, they seem to be extremely adverse to offering the Costume/Vanity stuff outside of the packs. This decision should be changed. They have been aware of the objections for over six months now and should have already made plans for an "exit strategy" for these items. For the record, I did use 3 reward tokens (15 packs) to attempt to get the costume set... I didn't get the entire costume set. I feel that this choice for not providing other means after a pack is discontinued is completely irresponsible given that the costume editor is the cornerstone of this game. They know players have objected to the nature of the distribution, yet are plowing ahead with not offering an alternate means of getting the items. I know one player that say they have spent over $400 to try to get the Black Wolf pet. It is inexcusable that item has less than 1% chance of dropping, yet they don't want to provide other means to get it. |
Many of the F2P and Freemium games have introduced these gambling rewards. DCUO has their promethium boxes. But at least there, the subscribers can open them all the time.
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I agree with you fully on this.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I have no problem with things being "exclusive" for a while. The Celestial set was like that. The preorder sprints were like that (though you didn't pay extra money for them.)
I'd be fine if these were set to remain "exclusive" items for a while - say, the H/V packs go away, and the set shows up on its own six months later. I'm *perfectly* fine with that. But "We just won't?" That's the sort of thing that immediately sours any goodwill Paragon Studios builds up. There's absolutely no logic to it. You made money off of the H/V packs for it. So, you don't want to... make... more money from the people that didn't get everything (or anything,) or join / return later? What's the sense in that? Paragon, I have other items on my account (the COV CE and COH CE) with "exclusive" items (Arachnos cape, Cape of the Four Winds, Prestige Power Slide.) I bought the COV CE when it was *new* and cost $80 or so. I've always understood the "We won't give away for free something you've paid extra for," and think that's a perfectly sensible stance. However, you'll also find, in pretty much all the threads on those items, that I support making them available in the Paragon Market. Let me say I support fully the request to make the Elemental Order and Black Wolf "exclusive" items on the market, as well. If you want to put in a time delay (six months,) ok, fine - it even makes sense from a marketing standpoint (not to mention that would put the release near christmas, when people want to spend money on "stuff" anyway.) Saying "No, we don't want to do this at all?" Poor decision, and really I expect that to be better thought through. This is a poor business decision, and a poor community relations decision. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I get not wanting to spend money for the chance at an item. I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling as I believe it's all a matter of personal perspective and the value that you personally place on the items that are included in Super Packs. If you're only after specific items and only place value on said things, I can understand how you would feel adverse towards the packs.
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As I've said, I've got some of the packs on the live servers (via reward tokens, which delayed me getting the Mecha Set, btw). Most of the items that I got I've not used. Why? It is because I don't use the some of the stuff (Inspirations, experienced powers beyond my paragon rewards bonuses, unslotters, enhancement boosters), I can generally live without (inspirations, rezzes, and reward merits) or I'm willing to pay more for (ATOs).
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We're going to continue making Super Packs in a responsible way. We believe that part of the success of the first series of Super Packs was the fact that we collaborated closely with the Community during their development. Did we completely agree with every single point given by the Community? No. Did we compromise and rethink several aspects of the original concept of Super Packs? Absolutely. Things like making ATO's able to be acquired in game, making Catalysts drop in game and allowing Super Packs to be purchased with Reward Tokens are all examples of player feedback directly resulting in positive change.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The success of Super Packs directly contributes to our ability to continue to make new content, both free and in the Paragon Market. Believe it or not, not everything we release in the Paragon Market is profitable, from a development standpoint. They may be popular with a segment of the population, and great QOL improvements, but that doesn't necessarily equate it being considered successful from a business standpoint.
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I don't think a single person commenting on this subject has an issue with the super packs providing for development costs for the game. What they (at least what I have) an issue with is the complete stubbornness to avoid putting the items to the market where they can be known quantity instead of in a grab-bag format after you've retired the grab-bag. You said you get the idea that some people don't want to spend money on a chance to get an item they want, but at the same time Paragon Studios is pretty much writing off those same people.
Paragon Studios doesn't need to develop the costume parts or vanity pet, those items have already been fully created. They have market codes (as anyone can see with /my_purchases). They have item art for the store. We're talking 12 items needing a market description and being added individually to the store. Oh wait, they already have descriptions (hover over the descriptions in the collection tab). By this point adding an item to the store should be easy for Paragon Studios or at least a known procedure.
And, yes, I know that some things Paragon Studios develops aren't selling well. Or at least I don't hear anyone at all excited that they got X inspiration. Heck, I know one player that wasn't excited by the ATOs (he had 150+ of them from packs, all he wanted was the reward merits).
Did the development team even bother to datamine how many players bought more packs after getting the costume items? Or how about try to get feedback as to what players were actually after in the super packs so development could be focused towards that. This could be extended to some of the items in the store (before they get made, not after), or would you rather see week after week of "yawn, I get to save my stipend again" or "nothing interests me on the market".
Here you are being told, "yes, we want this" and "yes, give the packs a period of exclusivity, but please make it generally available after". I'd avoid using the term "exclusive" though, as there are enough people that think "exclusive" means forever and a day.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
We're not closed off to the idea of making costume sets from Super Packs available via an alternate method, however it's going to be some time before we offer it. We've made this statement regarding things like the Tier 9 Paragon Rewards, and the same is true about Super Packs.
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As to the "we're not closed off to the idea", from this side of the screen that is exactly how it appears. Especially since the items have already had their development costs paid for.
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They've already said they were giving up said goose by retiring said goose.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Why the heck would they give up the golden goose.
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Supergamble Packs strike again!
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The whole purpose of the Super Packs is gambling. The Super Packs are designed almost perfectly to make them money. Why the heck would they give up the golden goose. The wolf pet is a vanity item. No one can accuse them of P2W with those. The ATOs they most certainly can which is why they are earnable in game.
Many of the F2P and Freemium games have introduced these gambling rewards. DCUO has their promethium boxes. But at least there, the subscribers can open them all the time. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Hell I too would consider thousands of people with more money than sense throwing said money away on a virtual product that contains 89% 'consumables', 10% -exclusive- costume pieces and 1% vanity flare a "major success". |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As I recall, the devs mentioned selling over half a million super packs at one point. I suspect that qualified the program as a major success.
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I used to think I spent too much on this game, and then I heard about the folks who spend $100's of dollars per month on Paragon Points, it boggles the mind.
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If knowing the items will eventually be sold ala carte after the superpacks are discontinued reduces the amount of income they make on superpacks because a significant number of people wait, is that just an acceptable risk you're willing to take?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Oh, I believe that not everything in the Paragon Market is profitable or successful. I also don't think I'm being unreasonable in asking for another means to buy already developed items after you've finished selling the Super Packs.
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Or a Premium who won't get support for items they paid for in the store.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
If you were from the EU you would be used to this by now.
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Actually, it was hard to hear exactly what they said, as Positron was roaring with laughter and shoveling kittens into a furnace when he answered the question about the packs.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
On today's TwitchTV stream, it was revealed that there are NO PLANS to release the Costume/Vanity stuff from the Super Pack
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That depends.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If knowing the items will eventually be sold ala carte after the superpacks are discontinued reduces the amount of income they make on superpacks because a significant number of people wait, is that just an acceptable risk you're willing to take?
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If they put the Elemental Order and the Space Pirate sets in the Paragon Market for 400 points in 6-8 months, I'd be fine with that.
If they don't put them on the Paragon Market, ever, but make them virtually guaranteed for me to get them in the first handful of packs, I'd be fine with that.
I just want a means to obtain them through rote means, whether that is grinding a bajillion tfs, spending a boatload of Reward Merits or just being patient and getting them as a veteran perk, there should at some point be an alternate way of getting the Elemental and Pirate sets for those that detest the gambling aspect of these items.
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And that goes to show what early feedback (ie. before you put in development time) is for.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If knowing the items will eventually be sold ala carte after the superpacks are discontinued reduces the amount of income they make on superpacks because a significant number of people wait, is that just an acceptable risk you're willing to take?
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At some point the costume bits are no longer able to be "rolled", do these people stop buying the packs or buy more? If they buy more, then there isn't a problem selling them later separately. If they stop, then the other items are not attractive enough and likely shouldn't have been made in the first place.
In the end, I'm somewhat surprised that they aren't saying that they are rolling in the costume parts/vanity pet into the new pack in case someone didn't get them.
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Correct. They have CHOSEN not to, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sounds to me like they had plenty of time to think it over and this is a firm decision.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And they have had over 7 months to come up with an alternative to put this discussion to rest, yet again they have chosen not to.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Man, I think that's horrible that folks aren't able to get this wolf. If I could give mine away, I would. For a vanity pet, it is one of the better ones, but I would have preferred 100 reward merits, myself.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But "We just won't?" That's the sort of thing that immediately sours any goodwill Paragon Studios builds up. There's absolutely no logic to it. You made money off of the H/V packs for it. So, you don't want to... make... more money from the people that didn't get everything (or anything,) or join / return later?
What's the sense in that? |
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| Saying "No, we don't want to do this at all?" Poor decision, and really I expect that to be better thought through. This is a poor business decision, and a poor community relations decision. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As I recall, the devs mentioned selling over half a million super packs at one point. I suspect that qualified the program as a major success.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
They've already said they were giving up said goose by retiring said goose.
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| Ticking off your customers isn't a great business choice. Especially when it doesn't cost you to NOT tick off the customer. Digging in and not listening to people that say "I don't like this way to buy your item, but I'd buy it another way" only hurts Paragon Studios' bottom line. |
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It's worse than that.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I get not wanting to spend money for the chance at an item. I'm not going to argue about whether or not this should be considered gambling as I believe it's all a matter of personal perspective and the value that you personally place on the items that are included in Super Packs. If you're only after specific items and only place value on said things, I can understand how you would feel adverse towards the packs.
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The packs can give me things that I would find upsetting. See. I have a sort of hoarding instinct problem. And long story short, I find it upsetting to have a thing that's like a resource, but cannot be replaced through play. Because I can't use them because I might need them more later, and there's no way to generate new ones. So basically the untradeable stuff that cannot be created through play becomes a permanent unusable thing taking up space. And I find that upsetting. Essentially, those things have negative value to me. (In terms of "makes me happy or sad", and really, what other standard is there?)
So there is no way I will ever get a super pack.
I recognize the benefits of them existing, I just wish there were a way for me to get the stuff I want that didn't rely on them -- but obviously, a large part of their appeal is stuff that can only be gotten through them.
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You say that like its objectively true, when the counterpoint seems to be that the superpacks work as a product exactly the way they were implemented. I understand you would prefer they worked a different way, but that's not the same thing as constantly trying to assert the logic behind an apparently wildly successful product is fatally flawed.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
At some point the costume bits are no longer able to be "rolled", do these people stop buying the packs or buy more? If they buy more, then there isn't a problem selling them later separately. If they stop, then the other items are not attractive enough and likely shouldn't have been made in the first place.
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Eliminate the word "virtually", and I'd agree with this. If they set it up in such a way to be 100% sure that you would get the 11 costume items by pack #15 and the black wolf by pack #50 (at the latest), I wouldn't even have batted an eye over these.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
If they don't put them on the Paragon Market, ever, but make them virtually guaranteed for me to get them in the first handful of packs, I'd be fine with that.
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You are probably never going to get the black wolf.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Eliminate the word "virtually", and I'd agree with this. If they set it up in such a way to be 100% sure that you would get the 11 costume items by pack #15 and the black wolf by pack #50 (at the latest), I wouldn't even have batted an eye over these.
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You should get all the costume pieces within 15-20 packs. At least, that has been my experience on both accounts, getting all of them except the beam rifle piece within 10-12 packs.
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... and not offering them again in any way shape or form means they no longer make money from them. Therefore...|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I would think the point is to make money.
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| Well, no. *YOU* don't like the decision. A number of other people don't like the decision. That doesn't make it a "poor business decision". |
How you can consider "Don't give us money, let us annoy you" a *good* decision is baffling.
Yeah, the superpacks sold. The superpacks sold after people had the costume parts. So obviously the costume's not the only - or even major - reason they sold. I know I'm only one (well, two, two accounts) customer, but I got all my pieces early - then kept picking them up for piles of merits, ATOs and the like. (And no, I never got the wolf, either.)
Some things should be rare and/or hard to obtain. Or even expensive.
And yes, I already have the wolf. Got it fairly early actually. I hardly ever use it.
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