No plans to release Black Wolf/Elemental Order separately.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-27 13:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I heard the 24 pack of the super packs gives a better chance but I can be wrong. I got the full outfit and black wolf within 7 packs out of 24..
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Originally Posted by Scythus
It's not exactly hard to get the Elemental Order costume pieces. Most people get them all after 20 or so packs. I've got all mine.
Good luck in trying to get the Black Wolf pet, though. That's obviously sucker's bait. |
VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use
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Not me I bought the super packs for all the other rewards back before the Perf Shifter PPM nerf and was disappointed when elemental order came up, the only piece from that set I use is the back pack and only on a few armored toons that what otherwise have a awkward looking naked back|
Originally Posted by Oldeb
Completely unsurprising. Too many people spent money on the packs solely for the costume pieces for them to even consider putting them up for sale separately. There's no way offering them now wouldn't result in a demand for refunds and a general customer service nightmare.
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On another note:
I doubt there would be refund demands, that would be as unreasonable as, if you buy a 1080p
HDTV one day and demand a refund 31+ days later cause the same, similar or better TV is cheaper elsewhere
Now if you bought 1080P tv when they were brand new, and the manufacturer discovered a defect that if not fixed would destroy the TV in short order, and decided to protect your investment by pushing out a update that turned your 1080p panel into a 540p/1080i panel you would be right to demand a refund if you want it and the only honorable thing for the manufacturer to do is honor all requests for one on the item in question
In both cases Paragon Studios would just deny said refund request anyway
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My customers have a far greater stake in whether I continue to exist as a business that supports them, particularly those that receive irreproducible services, and they get exactly zero input into my business decisions.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
finally, lets be honest, we all have a stake in the game
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They are just trying to avoid speaking in absolutes...it's PR speak. As for the slow part...when cash shop items are involved..."looking into it" means less about player feedback on it (though it is taken into account) but more about viewing the financial data. And that could possibly mean looking at trends that span multiple quarters.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Despite them saying they are not closed I think this is a bit more accurate. They certainly seem to be rather slow in their thinking about the delivery system.
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It is interesting that superpack 2 looks to be released in 3Q instead of 2Q leaving a 1 quarter gap between spikes in superpack launch sales.
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"More bought them than not" is a pretty huge claim, though. What percentage of players buy anything from the market? What percentage buy anything in any given month?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Any proof of your claim? The burden of proof is on both of us. All I can go by is Paragon's open statement of the extreme success of the Super Packs, so much they designed a second round of them instead of dropping them dead. We were openly told they were successful during the... Pummit, I believe? Or one of the live streams.
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If the claim is "more than 50% of all accounts which can log in bought at least one super pack", I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If it's just "more than 50% of accounts which have logged in since super packs went live bought at least one", I can't tell, but I would have thought that "successful" would be in the 5-10% range.
Let's say CoH has roughly 200k players right now who are meaningfully active. A 400-point item is roughly $5 of income for Paragon. So if 20k users bought that, that'd be $100k of income for them. I am pretty sure that the cost of developing a costume set is WAY lower than $100k. So I would regard 10% sales as hugely successful.
50%? 50% is insane.
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I guess it would also depend on what metric they were thinking of when they said it was a success. It could be number of players or, to me i would think it'd be about sales exceeding the cost to develop...not necessarily a specific percentage like 10% of the playerbase. But either one doesn't have to mean majority of customers...just enough to exceed whatever target they had in mind. |
Originally Posted by seebs
If the claim is "more than 50% of all accounts which can log in bought at least one super pack", I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If it's just "more than 50% of accounts which have logged in since super packs went live bought at least one", I can't tell, but I would have thought that "successful" would be in the 5-10% range.
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If their target is for instance 100k superpacks and they sold 600k then that's a success but it doesn't mean a majority of the playerbase were involved.
Also another thing to consider is...what would the word "bought" mean. Buying a superpack doesn't necessarily mean NCSoft getting more money because people could have "bought" them with free perks (stipend/tokens) that NCSoft gave out.
If those were used, then in essence, NCSoft gave away superpacks to players.
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I think you are ignoring a very large and real category of gambling, which is gambling where you always get something but it may not be worth much. Imagine if you will a deal wherein you spend a dollar and in return you ALWAYS get a ticket. Tickets are worth a dollar. Tickets don't actually do much, but each ticket has a number on it. Later, they generate a random number, and if you hold a ticket with that number on it, you get a car.|
Originally Posted by El__D
The Superpacks have a set cost, of which you will always receive a group of items for that are worth that much. Let me restate - The items you get in a Superpack are, monetarily, the value of the points you are paying for them. You always get your amount of points worth of 'stuff' when a pack is purchased (actually, you get quite a lot more than that, given that if you bought the items from any one Superpack individually from the Store, it'd cost a lot more than 80 Paragon Points).
There is literally no chance at all of spending money and gaining nothing, like actual gambling. I understand that people might feel slighted about the 'chance' aspects for items they'd rather get and that the personal value of the various items will vary from person to person. However, while that might influence personal decisions to purchase the packs, the fact remains that the Packs are not, money-wise, gambling. |
Is this not gambling? Because it sure sounds like gambling to me.
And if you change it so if you don't get a car, you get a lovely ball-point pen, I don't think that changes it enough to change the essence of the game. You are paying money to play a game of chance, where some outcomes are more valuable to you than others. That's gambling.
The key here is that, just as no one really believes that it is the ticket, rather than the chance at the car, that is "worth" $1 or $10 or whatever, it turns out that, no, the stuff you get from a super pack may not be worth the cost of the pack monetarily. Because "worth $N" is not an absolute term unless we're talking about money. Anything else, "worth $N" is a matter of how much it's worth to a given person.
Imagine that Paragon were to add a new item to the market. It's the Invisible Flea companion pet, and it gives you a power which does not actually do anything at all, and it is sold for 3,200 points. Now imagine a Stupendous Pack, which has a 50% chance of giving you a 10-slot enhancement storage increase, and a 50% chance of giving you an Invisible Flea. If we are to accept your argument in terms of point values, the Stupendous Pack is worth on average 2,400 points, and certainly if you spend 1,600 points on it, you are guaranteed to get at least as much value as you paid.
And yet, somehow, I don't think people would generally agree. That ncsoft charges 3,200 points for the Invisible Flea does not mean that it is worth that to a given customer.
I see it as gambling because I pay money in hope for something and stand a pretty good chance of receiving nothing that I consider to be worth my money. It's the "package" problem again - I want specific things, and the more they're obfuscated behind package deals, the less likely I am to bother. Far from the return always equalling the cost, I'm actually paying for things I don't want in order to access things I do want. Which... Honestly strikes me as exactly the opposite of what the development team initially expressed was the Market's greatest strength. We would no longer have to buy entire sets just to get the few pieces we wanted, we could buy the pieces directly. This was supposed to get more players to buy since they didn't have to buy a whole set of things they didn't want for one or two they did.
I guess people will pay more for the items they want if they only way to get them is to pay for items they don't. Psychologically, it's less depressing since you're not just tossing money down the drain. They company is incurring an opportunity cost by giving you the extras so it makes sense that you're paying for them. Me, though, I'd rather pay only for the stuff I want.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Works for me, in the end.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Snip.
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If you don't want to support Super Packs, that's fine. But don't hide it behind the Red Herring of "It's gambling so it's immoral!". Twisting Zwilinger's words to say he's saying "IT IS GAMBLING" is as ludicrous as my apparent 'flawed logic' in your eye. Although this is an Eye of the Beholder thing, in the end.
If you want something so badly, go buy it. You're going to get the full set sooner than you think, much like Elemental Order. And you'd be surprised at how often you use the other goodies in it. I don't think I've ever been as satisfied with a purchase as I have been than with the Super Packs. By a long, long shot.
No power set has brought me continued amusement and frequent use as those consumables. Or as much fun, honestly. Weird, I guess. But, that's my stance. I'd hate to see them ruined because the sub-minority of the minority (AKA: The minority of the minority-driven forums) are upset they have to break fake morals.
And yet, I can admit? If the costume pieces were not exclusive, I'd just shrug and walk away from the Super Packs. Thus why I'd be so upset if they were made available outside of them.
If that's the price paid for Super Packs, I'm all for it. And really, done with this thread before it becomes a big argument and/or zombie horse. You all didn't get your way last time, you're definitely not getting it this time.
Buy the packs, or don't? That's your option, and pretty sure, like last time, Paragon isn't freaking out because ten or so people are trying to start the SAME protest that failed seven months ago, now.
You can scream moral bankruptcy or any other exclusive that comes to mind, but at the end of the day I'm a (future) Cosmic Corsair and you're not.
My thoughts: I'm sad that we're about to dance this "ultra-rare, non-tradable costume/vanity items" dance again.
I was a critic of the super packs when they came out, but I tried them anyway. I'm primarily motivated in this game by costumes and vanity items, but I did grow to like the consumables & ATOs much more than I thought. Still, I never bought a pack looking for those items. It was the black wolf that drew me in, what I most wanted, and it was the item that kept me buying packs long after I should have stopped. But Lordy, that wolf would have been PERFECT for my vampire character. I bought many more packs than I had intended chasing after the Black Wolf. Between my account and my boyfriend's, I probably spent over $150 on Super Packs. And still no wolf for either of us. 
Of course, them's the breaks, and I knew that going in. And it's not the end of the world; I got lots of merits, lots of ATOs, lots of inf from selling everything. But the one thing I wanted -- the wolf -- I still don't have, and at this point, I'm not sure I ever will. I ended up parking my vampire character, because now he just feels incomplete until he gets the black wolf. (If all you care about missions, powers or enhancements, you probably wouldn't understand. But then again, those motivated by power enhancements got their method of getting them in-game. Those of us motivated by aesthetics got squat.)
There's a fine line between incentive and disincentive. I'm sure that line is different for everyone, but for me, the chance at getting the whole costume was decent enough for me to purchase a few packs, but the difficulty of getting the wolf ended up just making me mad -- at the game, at the devs, and yes, at myself for foolishly chasing a near-impossible goal in the first place.
I'm sitting this dance out this time 'round.
d
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Of course, had they not been successful they would have either canceled or radically altered the second round of them.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
They already planned to release more than the first pack.
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The devs plan to have an Omega incarnate slot, but they have no idea what it will do. Production has to plan major development months and years ahead for various resource management and marketing reasons. That doesn't mean those plans don't get shuffled around based on continuing developments. That the second set of Super Packs seems to be following the same structure as the first one suggests the first one met or exceeded their expectations for them, whatever those were.
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You haven't actually read what I wrote. Then again it really shouldn't surprise me considering that you aren't backing down on claims that a majority of players are buying these.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
If you don't want to support Super Packs, that's fine. But don't hide it behind the Red Herring of "It's gambling so it's immoral!".
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I've said that it was a bad business choice on their part. They are choosing not to sell an item that would sell with a different delivery system. They know it. They are unwilling to take people's money, they are unwilling to to reduce player's stipends (opportunity costs), and they are unwilling to show that they back a statement they made for Issue 21: "Pay for the content and features that you want.", not "Pay for things you don't want on the off chance that you might get the content and features you do want."
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Part of the impetus of the Paragon Market is to make more things more available to more people. As such, we're always considering what we should or shouldn't offer on a regular basis, especially if demand is high enough.
That and we like money. |
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Twisting Zwilinger's words to say he's saying "IT IS GAMBLING" is as ludicrous as my apparent 'flawed logic' in your eye.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Although this is an Eye of the Beholder thing, in the end.
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On the other hand, making blatantly false claims like you have in this thread can be shown to be reasonably false.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
If you want something so badly, go buy it.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You're going to get the full set sooner than you think, much like Elemental Order. And you'd be surprised at how often you use the other goodies in it.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I don't think I've ever been as satisfied with a purchase as I have been than with the Super Packs. By a long, long shot.
No power set has brought me continued amusement and frequent use as those consumables. Or as much fun, honestly. Weird, I guess. But, that's my stance. |
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I'd hate to see them ruined because the sub-minority of the minority (AKA: The minority of the minority-driven forums) are upset they have to break fake morals.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Buy the packs, or don't?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You can scream moral bankruptcy
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Thats freakishly lucky. I thought there were more than 7 rare parts to the costumes.
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Originally Posted by Blackleviathan
I heard the 24 pack of the super packs gives a better chance but I can be wrong. I got the full outfit and black wolf within 7 packs out of 24..
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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You could theoretically get 3 or 4 parts in one pack - one Very Rare, one Rare, one Uncommon, and one Common (or a second uncommon).
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Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Thats freakishly lucky. I thought there were more than 7 rare parts to the costumes.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Actually you could, in theory, get 5 costume parts in 1 pack.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
You could theoretically get 3 or 4 parts in one pack - one Very Rare, one Rare, one Uncommon, and one Common (or a second uncommon).
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I should've said realistically rather than theoretically.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Actually you could, in theory, get 5 costume parts in 1 pack.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Realistically: 0-2.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
I should've said realistically rather than theoretically.
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Wow, this thread got volatile fast. One thing that keeps popping up is the gambling aspect. I don't see the packs as gambling as in Vegas style, so much as buying a pack of baseball, Magic, Pokemon etc cards. You don't know what's in the pack, it's a total mystery. You can be sure, though, that around 2/3's of the pack of cards is garbage. You have the off chance of getting that rare that hooks you. But out of the 3-5 bucks you pay for 12 cards, 8 of them may as well go in the trash with the wrapper.
The packs are nearly identical to this. Not everyone wants the ATO's, insps, merits whatever. All they want is the super rare parts. Except unlike trading cards there is no after market of people saying "I don't want this wolf pet, who wants to buy it for 200 bucks?" You don't get what you want and you get mad at the pack, the devs, the whole system.
I wouldn't be mad if they brought out the EO set for sale, or any other set for that matter. Tier 9 sets included. I'm also not mad that they haven't put those things on the market, its not ruining my experience either way. I missed out on the masks and aura they gave out recently due to hitting a hard time financially, but I'm not mad about it. One day they may be for sale, or not. That choice is not in my hands.
For me, the packs are neat. I don't have an attachment or goal in buying them, I usually just have left over points from buying something else. I pay a buck and I'm guaranteed something that costs more than a buck on the market. That's a better trade off than any pack of cards I ever bought.
@Sylver Bayne
Pinnacle Server
This is one of those threads that's just going to go round and round. No amount of debate or arguing or personal vitriol is going to change anyone's stance.
You either like them or you don't. Paragon Studios is going to keep making them and keep gating things behind them. Will things eventually be released normally? Potentially, but probably not for a long while.
And that's pretty much it. No one kvetching about how immoral it is is going to make them stop. They know you're unsatisfied, but they know plenty more are not.
So I think folks are just going to have to agree to disagree. Or just continue arguing in circles, it sure gives the rest of us some entertainment.
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Originally Posted by ThrowDown_Kid
Wow, this thread got volatile fast. One thing that keeps popping up is the gambling aspect. I don't see the packs as gambling as in Vegas style, so much as buying a pack of baseball, Magic, Pokemon etc cards.
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Key difference being, buying a pack of TCG cards, gives you a physical item that you actually own, and thus can then sell the ones you don't want, or trade with other people for the ones you want.
Hell you can even avoid buying a pack and just purchase the individual cards you want either from the store or from an auction type place.
Sure with the supergamble packs, you can trade the ATE's but that is it. All the other crap that apparantly makes the packs worthwhile, you're stuck with.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I don't consider it gambling. To me, gambling requires a chance to win and a risk of losing. You place money on a bet or pay to spin a wheel. You may get nothing, break even, or get multiple times your bet back.
To me, the superpacks are more like the vending machines some restaurants and other places have with crappy toys, keychains and decals in a little plastic bubble. Everyone who pays a quarter gets a little plastic bubble. Of course, it may be a three-legged, pink, plastic horse and not that cool Spider-Man sticker you wanted.
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Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Good for them.
Want the goodies, buy the packs.
And as far as "gambling" goes, not really.
Well, the wolf pet I guess.
But the devs have their thumb on the scale of the 'random' part of the superpack rewards. I bought 25 or 30 and got all the costume junk + over 1k in merits and enough ATO enhancements to make a billion in market sales even after I slotted all the brute & blaster ones.
It's not much different from just buying a costume pack, except you get all this other useful stuff as well.
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sort of, except that in the case of the packs if you buy a small pile you're pretty much guaranteed to get that cool sticker, along with a bunch of other stuff you can turn into a small mountain of game currencies.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
To me, the superpacks are more like the vending machines some restaurants and other places have with crappy toys, keychains and decals in a little plastic bubble. Everyone who pays a quarter gets a little plastic bubble. Of course, it may be a three-legged, pink, plastic horse and not that cool Spider-Man sticker you wanted.
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My City Was Gone
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I will log on right now and trade you 1 billion inf and 1500 reward merits for that "costume junk." I'll even toss in a random handful of ATOs just cause I like you.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I bought 25 or 30 and got all the costume junk + over 1k in merits and enough ATO enhancements to make a billion in market sales even after I slotted all the brute & blaster ones.
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Oh, wait. The part I like is gated and the parts you like aren't. That is the complaint from people like me who only want one portion of the packs. Why is only part of it locked out from being obtained outside the pack? Take a look at most of the people who agree with you about loving the packs, it's going to be people who love the parts that are trade-able/acquirable in game. Why do you win and I don't?
That's rhetorical of course. I know why. Because min/max, character build focused people would largely by those items anyway. To force people like me even consider it they have to gate items you don't want. Since it's easier to get money out of you, people like me lose. I can understand the business decision even as I loathe Paragon Studios for doing it. About the only humor I can see in this is the irony that part of the promotion for Freedom was that you would be able to get the parts of the game you wanted and didn't have to waste money on the parts you didn't.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
For the record in case you missed my other posts on this issue I could care less what people do and I am not trying to control their gambling habits etc... IDC about any of that ish. I was just dealing with the literal definition not the morality etc...
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.