No plans to release Black Wolf/Elemental Order separately.

err, no. It *IS* random. The fact that the odds are weighted does not preclude it being random. Random does NOT mean equal chance of all outcomes, like rolling a die.

In the sense that a roulette wheel that paid off 3/4ths of the time is 'random', sure.

Its predictable payoff of "the good stuff" undermines the complaints of those using "random" in a pejorative sense. It isn't completely deterministic, but it is far from capricious.

Your semantic hair splitting is nearly as tedious as it is inaccurate.

Enjoy not having the Elemental Order set!

Being weighted doesn't take away the fact the the process is still random. Can a player "open" 100 packs and not get the complete costume set? Yes. Is is likely? No, not really. That doesn't change the fact that it is possible. Arcanaville pegged the odds of the Black Wolf at 1 in 420 packs. Does this mean that for every 420 packs sold that a wolf gets "picked" or that there can't be 420 players opening 1 pack getting the pet? No, as people have a fondness of saying, "random is random."

Programmers weight randomness all the time and you can see it in many places in this game. From the enhancement/salvage/etc. drop tables to tables at the end of trials to critter spawn groups are all weighted random tables. The difference is that super packs involve real money.

Never studied slot machines and video poker, huh? Predicted amount of "good stuff" doesn't even enter into the equation.

As you can see, the parallels exist.

Actually, no. The way you are suggesting for costume bits is actually significantly worse for players.

In that other game, any parts you've unlocked, you've unlocked account wide. In this game, that isn't possible with the existing code. Additionally, the developers do not have a means to remove an account-wide unlock. You can see what happens with the last part of your suggestion with ATOs, as they already act that way.

Overall though, I'd agree with CactusBrawler.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

So what?

You have great odds.

If you're not happy with that, don't play.

When "random" is weighted in your favor, it ain't that random.

And I've gone out of my way to except the wolf pet from my comments in this thread. If you want the wolf pet then yeah, that's totally random and yeah you could buy a whole **** ton of packs chasing it. That's why I keep disclaimering it.

For costume stuff, if you buy some packs you'll get the junk.

everything in the game involves real money.
sub fees, computer hardware, internet connections, none of this is free.

Super Packs are of a piece with every other game reward- an ephemeral prize for a capital investment. And as with every other game reward, it is impossible for the distribution system to please everyone.

Don't like 'em, don't buy em.

It doesn't matter how random it is or is not... The fact remains that there is no non-random method of buying these items, yet there is for most of the consumables in the packs.

Not asking that if pleases everyone. What is being asked for is that when a pack gets replaced, the items get a different distribution system. Not only that, but the next distribution system doesn't have to involve "just giving them away".

Will this please everyone? No. Will it please more customers than it ticks off? Yes.

Does Paragon Studios still get money (or eliminate stipend "debts")? Yes.

Not a binary situation. I would like to buy the costume parts. I'm telling the company I'd like to buy the costume parts. However I'm also telling them that I do NOT like the distribution method, and that is in turn COSTING them money. Every time I think I'd buy some points for something in the market, I think of the super packs and DO NOT BUY THE POINTS because of how I feel about the super packs. That is me not giving them money.

I didn't think that way about the previous costume packs (up to the Pocket D pack) the same as I do the super packs. That good will towards the company when lost, multiplied by a number of players (I don't think I'm alone on this, though I might be), should be scary.

Again, you don't go into business to annoy your potential customers and that is the only thing being accomplished here.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

The numbers could very likely mean the opposite: That there is a minority of players spending hundreds of dollars on the packs. Or it might mean that every account bought 10 packs.

Until Paragon Studios publishes the numbers of unique accounts that bought super packs and average number of packs sold to accounts, all you (and everyone else here that isn't working for the company) are doing is speculating sales figures where you've only been given total "sales" (loose term, as it could include stipends and reward token redemption).

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I couldn't have said it better or more succinctly myself. I hate the superpacks, and just knew I'd never have this costume set. I have more than enough other choices that I can live without them (and all the trash I'd have to endure trying to get them). No thanks.

--NT

Nothing is better than eternal happiness

A ham sandwich is better than nothing

Ergo, a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness

So are you, except you're speculating in a direction that defies the status quo.

I'd like a car that ran on tap water, alas they only consume gasoline.

SO UNFAIR!


If you want them, buy the pack.
It's a pretty simple mechanism, one that has been as far as I can see spectacularly successful.
Making the main draw available in some other way detracts from what makes the packs work so well- as such, I don't see it being in the best business interests of Paragon Studios.

Does the status quote please everyone?
No.
Did is please more customers than it ticked off?
Yes.

Next.

The program was a huge hit as constituted.
No need to undermine its effectiveness by pandering to a minority of complainers.


An absolutely binary situation.

Whether or not you like the costume is irrelevant as they won't be changing the (spectacularly successful) distribution channel.

It's a premium set and you're not willing to pay that premium.


Given how much fun they're having rolling around in the stacks of cash generated by super packs I doubt they can even hear the sound of a lone malcontent cutting of their nose to spite their face.

Every decision they make improves relations with some players and erodes relations with others.

In this case whatever pain is being caused by the scorn of a vocal minority can be healed by applying a huge poultice of cold, hard cash.

Well, except for the majority who really enjoyed the super packs and loved that they made buying a costume set a fun, interactive mini game.

But, narcissism noted.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

Well, that's exactly what I've done.

Thing is, I really like costume sets, but I don't like odds period, great or otherwise. And I also anti-like some things that Super Packs can create. I recognize that this is probably sort of crazy, but that turns out to be of no relevance at all. The only thing that makes something good or bad entertainment is whether it entertains. If a thing makes me unhappy, it doesn't matter whether that's because I'm utterly bonkers -- it's still a bad purchase for me.

I would point out: I don't particularly object to gambling as a thing. The super packs clearly meet my understanding of the term, in that the outcomes are subject to chance and some are better than others. I don't really care. I don't particularly like gambling things, because I don't like not being able to say "if I spend $X, I will get the thing I want".

But if they didn't yield stuff I antiwanted, I might get some anyway, just because I have boatloads of spare points at the moment. I don't really object very strongly to gambling, I just find it vaguely upsetting.

Out of curiosity, how much (in points) would you (or other people who dislike the packs) be willing to pay for the costume on it's own? I don't know the exact drop rates for the costumes but empirical evidence suggests that if you buy 24 Super Packs you have a pretty good chance of getting the costume. So to that end would you be willing to spend 1440 points to get just the costume?

Personally I don't mind the packs however I feel that if the costume were released on it's own the price should be set so that it's the same as the cost to buy enough packs to have a good chance (about 80%) of getting all of the pieces randomly with no option to buy individual pieces.

I made a quick pass at evaluating the odds of getting a costume piece in each pack but based on the empirical evidence I've seen there is a significant weighting to the different cards in the pack so without that info it's impossible to say.

If they are being made "not available", then there is nothing to detract from the non-existent sales. This is also one of my objections to not putting the DVD collectors stuff out (and I have them).

Any proof?

It is a premium set just like the Carnival of Light set, the Circle of Thorns set, the Barbarian set, the Retro Sci-Fi set, the Steampunk set, or any of the other sets out there except for one aspect: all the rest are available either on a per piece basis or as a bundle. The only costumes that aren't bundled cost less than 400 points total.

Hah, not even Arcanaville would be willing to say exactly how much cash this generated. Especially with the stipends, bonus points, or paragon reward tokens out there.

And given some of the posts in this thread, I'm not alone in thinking this is a bad choice.

Cuts both ways.

Making the costume parts & pet available after the "print run" does nothing to change that.

Pot, meet Kettle.

For an 11 piece set? 400 points... exactly like the Carnival of Light set.

Given that Zwillinger on UStream said 15 packs on average for most players, I think that should be the baseline... Guess what? I got those 15 packs and not the complete set. Even if, as you say 24 packs, shouldn't everyone buying 24 packs automatically get the set, even if they don't roll them? I've heard up to 35 packs before some players got the complete set.

I disagree to the last, is someone has got a partial set, they should be able to buy just the remaining pieces.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

Yeah, I really don't see them doing it for 400 points. The way I look at it costume sets come in three levels. Basic sets which go for about 400-600 points, Rarer sets which sell for a Premium or come in Super Packs and Very Rare sets which turn up in the Tier 9 VIP area.

I realize that from a logical point of view costume sets should be priced purely on the amount of effort required to make them but the fact is that Paragon Studios is a business and having different tiers of pricing for similar but not identical things is a good way for them to make money. In any case, selling the entire set for 400 points seems rather insulting to people who bought packs just to get it. Setting the price at somewhere between 900 and 1440 would seem a lot fairer.

For what it's worth I'd have no objection to them setting a streak-breaker in the system where after opening X packs all future packs are guaranteed to contain costume cards until you have all the costume parts (set X to whatever seems fair, 15 is a decent number).

That's a good point and something I hadn't considered. My main reason for saying no to individual parts is that people getting the costume through Super Packs don't get to choose specific parts so people buying it directly shouldn't either. The compromise I'd like to see there is that you always have to buy the "complete" but if you already have some parts the price is discounted as a percentage of the number of parts you have (so using the 1440 price above each piece you own would reduce the price to complete the set by 130 points) but I doubt that's a feasible option.

I'd pay 800pp for the entire set. They could even use the other marketing ploy of time-limited purchase like they did with the Roman and D-pack. One month only: buy the Elemental Order. ONE TIME SALE!!!! If it worked for the Roman and D-pack; it could work for the EO too.

However:
Yeah, same here. I'd like the set but with four accounts I'd want to have it available on; I can't budget for the cost of packs when it's a potentially variable number involved.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Name one 600 point costume set. Doesn't exist. As to the Tier 9 VIP area, we've been told that they do NOT equate to 400 points.

Reference:
So that argument is out as well.

As for the lesser value, a person that is getting the costume set alone is not getting the extra stuff in the packs, and shouldn't be charged for the extra stuff. I have to ask you what makes you think that players that object to the extra stuff should have to buy the extra stuff? With your reasoning, they actually get less, because with the current set up they might (I stress might) eventually use the junk.

They paid the premium to have use of the costume earlier (long established precedent in this game) and get the consumables in the packs. Eventual discounts happen, just like every other sale in this game and for that matter in the real world of trade. What you are suggesting is nothing less than to penalize people for not wanting the chaff in the super packs.

I'd agree, but from the sounds of things, practically impossible.

Neither did people that bought:

• Super Booster I: Cyborg
• Super Booster II: Magic
• Super Booster III: Superscience
• Super Booster IV: Martial Arts
• Super Booster V: Mutant
• Good Versus Evil Edition's in-game bonuses were available as an item pack.
• The Wedding Pack, also called the Valentine Pack.
• Mac Special Edition's in-game bonuses were available as an item pack.
• Going Rogue Complete Collection's in-game bonuses were available for those who purchased the basic expansion.
• Party Pack
• Origins Pack
• Animal Pack
• Steampunk Pack

So the reasoning that "Just because people that bought the super packs couldn't choose, that people that want the costume separately shouldn't be able to either" is also faulty.

You aren't asking for a compromise, you are saying that people that don't want the consumables should have to pay for the consumables and not get them if they only want the costume set. This is also a load of garbage.

More to the point, I don't think that their store provider can do what you are suggesting.

Edit:
And for reference, here is a breakdown of the drop percentages:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0RtVHJyQmZ1Znc

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I'm okay with packs remainin' as they are.

Keep it up, Paragon Studios.

+1 for the good guys!

They are not being made "not available".

Even if they were, you'd still be wrong. If the EO set and/or wolf were made available separately after SP1 was (for the sake of argument) retired, that would almost certainly have a negative effect on the sales of SP2. People would wait for that set's brass ring(s) to become available when it was retired.

*shrug* Just because we don't have a set for 600 points doesn't mean we never will. I said 400-600 because that's what I'd consider the range for a "low end" costume set.

As for the Tier 9 VIP sets I never said that they were associated with any Paragon Point cost I said that they are a separate tier cost-wise from the "basic" sets in the Paragon store. Despite what Zwillinger has said this is objectively true. You can purchase a paragon store costume simply by buying the points to pay for it whereas the T9 VIP sets have a requirement that you spend a large amount of money on other things first (either subscription time or Paragon Points) to earn the tokens needed to unlock the ability to spend tokens on the costumes. So effectively they are free bonuses for spending a lot of money. There's nothing wrong with that but it does make them a separate tier from other sets.

people like myself are waiting for paragon to commit one way or the other, unless you can back up your statement that more would wait, your statement is meaningless.

You didn't have any, why the double standard?


No it isn't.

Oh good, you finally got around to it.

You know what, Superman, Batman, Spider Man, Iron Man and Darkseid are all exactly alike, except for one thing....Darkseid wants to wipe out all sentient life so he can get down with Death.


So it's a terrible cash grab until someone says "hey look at all the cash they grabbed!", then there are all these other ways to get them?

Amazing how little it takes to make you recognize existing alternative methods of attainment!


Well, besides eliminating a huge number of sales.
But you'd be happy, so I'm sure they'll get right on it- after all, you'd be happy to pay 400 points!


As I'm mostly just turning your unsupported arguments on their head here, that's not the zinger you probably think it is.

and this is from another post, but it too hilarious to just pass over:

Name one powerset where you use GIGANTIC ANIME SIZED MELEE WEAPONS. Doesn't exist.

Oh wait...yes it does, they added it while I was gone for a year!

Huh, I wonder what that has to do with the point values of junk on the market? I have this nagging feeling there's a connection....