No plans to release Black Wolf/Elemental Order separately.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-27 13:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The only fair price is pretty much time. It can be 400 points or whatever the german shepherd is priced at right now, but it' going to have to take a lot of time to come out to preserve the feeling that those people that got it got to have it be an exclusive lil dealie bob for an extended period. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yeah I'm not sure that there's any sort of fair price to set for that.
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Honestly I'd say a year. After that, stuff should be fair game on the market. But that's me.
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But presumably, you feel you're not typical of the playerbase, then, in your reaction to this, am I reading you right?|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Because it's a bad idea that will piss many people off.
I'm philosophically against liberalizing availability of stuff, but I generally get why they do it- they make the calculation that the goodwill they'll earn will exceed the ire from those who previously 'bought' the item by whatever means. (snip) A lot of players bought a lot of super packs in the recent past. Put Elemental Order in the store anytime soon and brace for the firestorm. What you see in this thread is skewed because the people who're happy with the status quo are mostly not posting. People *with* a complaint are much more likely to participate in these things than people without. Support it? No. I think the status quo is fine and don't see why an alternative should be supplied. Tolerate it? Sure, provided the convenience fee for avoiding the packs was high enough to offset the premium payed by pack buyers. |
You'd tolerate it, but most people wouldn't?
(Personally, I am for as much liberalization of non-combat stuff as possible - I want everyone to have the greatest possible opportunity to create the costume they wish, and I have never felt the slightest resentment at someone else getting something I have, or have had access to.)
Lastly,
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| If they price it what it would take to "normally get them", then people can just buy packs, no? |
Given typical pricing, if the EO set were not offered as a bundle, but only as individual pieces, what would the total cost for the set come to? Would that comparable to the 'average' SuperPack purchase to get it?
I'm not sure how to go about answering that question.
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- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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| So - and I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you - you aren't interested in the SuperPack mechanism per se, just what's in the packs. You'd be just as happy with the merchandise if it was offered as a bundle or as a SuperPack, yes? |
...I would rather be able to buy what I want directly instead of having to fish through "super packs" to get it. Like, duh. I just don't equate selling costume parts through packs with, oh, annexing the Sudetenland.
Likewise, if PS were to suddenly release the EO set separately from the packs I wouldn't start nerdraging about slaps in the face. I just wouldn't buy the next set, knowing that if I sit tight whatever the draw is will become available on its own.
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It would be a pointless effort on their part- raising the price enough to mollify those who'd already burned various amounts of points on superpacks would likely enrage those who currently want to buy the pack through the store.|
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
But presumably, you feel you're not typical of the playerbase, then, in your reaction to this, am I reading you right?
You'd tolerate it, but most people wouldn't? |
Wanting a store option is basically wanting the costume pack at a discount.
If they were offered in the store at a suitable premium the characters we have here complaining about "gambling" would instead be complaining about price gouging.
See Snow Globe's generous offer to pay 400 points and not a jot more.
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| (Personally, I am for as much liberalization of non-combat stuff as possible - I want everyone to have the greatest possible opportunity to create the costume they wish, and I have never felt the slightest resentment at someone else getting something I have, or have had access to.) |
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
and it's still too new to be retired within the year.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And yet they are retiring the packs from the Paragon Rewards Program either this month or next...
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NO!!!!!!!!!!!, Wanting a store option is wanting things to have a set price. Buyer pays the set price and then owns the item. | Wanting a store option is basically wanting the costume pack at a discount. |
This is an extremely simple concept with zero trickery about it. Item costs x, customer pays x, takes item and keeps it. I simply do not understand why so many people are defending bait and [potential] switch tactics so hard.
Giving people a bunch of inspirations when they are hoping for costume parts is just.... cruel. Put a price on the costume bits and let people have them, this is a system that has worked well for years and NOW, NOW!! they want to start playing a shell-game with the stuff people want most. Say what you want, last time something similar got tried [costume recipies] it ignited an absolute nuclear blast of rage from the playerbase and eventually ended up being redacted out of existance via drop adjustments.
Why do we want to drudge through this tired fight all over again. Costumes are central to this game, if the developers want to start shell-gaming them - then the fallout will be all theirs. And it will be heavy. Tinkering with the costumes in this game particularly is a no-man's land with a landmine every four feet or so.
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Close enough:|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
And yet they are NOT retiring the packs.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Actually in the Twitch Broadcast they said it was the PLAN to replace the SP1s in the T9VIP options with SP2s. This could change, but that part of Snow Globe's statement is true... for now. It could change, but it might not.
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Here's the thing though.
The people against the super-packs already think Paragon Studios are an evil corporation only after money, willing to do whatever nasty gambling tactic gets them the most. (Please don't post saying "I'm against the super packs, but I don't think that." it really doesn't matter, that's just the general feeling that's being given off. The important point is that there are negative feelings towards the game because of the super-packs.)
Negative feelings don't just go away, the people spurned by the super-packs are always going to have a lesser opinion of this game now. Sure, there might be a few exceptions, but it's simply true that, for most people who were against the super-packs, the negative feelings are already there.
Releasing the costume set separately isn't going to magically change that.
However, releasing the costume set separately most certainly could annoy a whole load of new people.
The way I see it is that there's little to gain from releasing the costume set separately, but a whole lot of good will that's potentially lost.
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It's true that costume recipes didn't work too well, but it's also pretty apparent that the super-packs have worked extremely well.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
NO!!!!!!!!!!!, Wanting a store option is wanting things to have a set price. Buyer pays the set price and then owns the item.
This is an extremely simple concept with zero trickery about it. Item costs x, customer pays x, takes item and keeps it. I simply do not understand why so many people are defending bait and [potential] switch tactics so hard. Giving people a bunch of inspirations when they are hoping for costume parts is just.... cruel. Put a price on the costume bits and let people have them, this is a system that has worked well for years and NOW, NOW!! they want to start playing a shell-game with the stuff people want most. Say what you want, last time something similar got tried [costume recipies] it ignited an absolute nuclear blast of rage from the playerbase and eventually ended up being redacted out of existance via drop adjustments. Why do we want to drudge through this tired fight all over again. Costumes are central to this game, if the developers want to start shell-gaming them - then the fallout will be all theirs. And it will be heavy. Tinkering with the costumes in this game particularly is a no-man's land with a landmine every four feet or so. |
Why mess with a formula that works? Because the new one might work better.
They tried it with costume recipes and it didn't work out so, as you say, they changed it so it became irrelevant. Now they've tried it with the super-packs and it works really well, so they're sticking with it.
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I had no problem with the costume bundles other than a mild grudge that I was being made to pay twice - once for my subscription, and a second price for the costume bundle - but this was largely academic, since I bought almost all of the costume bundles anyways. |
Why mess with a formula that works? Because the new one might work better. They tried it with costume recipes and it didn't work out so, as you say, they changed it so it became irrelevant. Now they've tried it with the super-packs and it works really well, so they're sticking with it. |
It is the advent of the shell-game that has me angry.
I really don't care what else they put in the packs, IOs, whatever. I don't like and will never like the *costumes* I need and want being reduced to a game of chance. I think I have been in a casino once in my life, there's a reason for that.
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Do you think Snow Globe is typical of the community at large? If so, why oppose their viewpoint? If not, why bring them up at all?|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It would be a pointless effort on their part- raising the price enough to mollify those who'd already burned various amounts of points on superpacks would likely enrage those who currently want to buy the pack through the store.
Wanting a store option is basically wanting the costume pack at a discount. If they were offered in the store at a suitable premium the characters we have here complaining about "gambling" would instead be complaining about price gouging. See Snow Globe's generous offer to pay 400 points and not a jot more. |
So - and perhaps you can understand why I am confused - you were earlier saying that a store option would be tolerable if it were priced high enough, and now you are saying it is impossible to price a store option high enough to be tolerable?
And, if pricing the store option to the average level of SuperPack purchase would result in cries that it is overpriced... did that actually change the price? Or just give us the Real Numbers?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Clearly you are an enlightened soul and are entitled to look down on the rest of us with bemused tolerance- gratz!
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That's just been my experience, of course.
Lastly, I'm sorry if my honest desire for as many people as possible to have the things they want in some way offends you. I don't know if it's enlightened, and I certainly don't feel entitled to condescend.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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If you set the price where you'd need to set it to be fair to those who bought super packs (i/e at the high end of the 'unlucky' range), would you still feel the same? |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
NO!!!!!!!!!!!, Wanting a store option is wanting things to have a set price. Buyer pays the set price and then owns the item.
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I wasn't speaking specifically about you B_I, but about the folk who want it in the store and don't seem to think it should cost any more than any other costume bundle.
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| This is an extremely simple concept with zero trickery about it. Item costs x, customer pays x, takes item and keeps it. I simply do not understand why so many people are defending bait and [potential] switch tactics so hard. |
I like these packs for the same reason I like running the occasional farm map- it's fun to see what you get.
And in a game where they've made nearly everything available in the shop, this is one retail outlet where I get to indulge my affection for random rewards.
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My City Was Gone
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Because this is an internet forum?|
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Do you think Snow Globe is typical of the community at large? If so, why oppose their viewpoint? If not, why bring them up at all?
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That's what we do here.
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| So - and perhaps you can understand why I am confused - you were earlier saying that a store option would be tolerable if it were priced high enough, and now you are saying it is impossible to price a store option high enough to be tolerable? |
I don't want a store option, period.
If they insisted on a store option I would be less hostile to a price point reflecting the high end of what super pack buyers spent than the 'usual' market price. But it would still cost them my commerce on future super pack releases.
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| And, if pricing the store option to the average level of SuperPack purchase would result in cries that it is overpriced... did that actually change the price? Or just give us the Real Numbers? |
I wouldn't accept a price at the "average"- then you're shafting the people who spent more than that for their sets.
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It has been my experience during previous incidents of costume availability increasing that there are a few individuals who complain about all of the 'work' they put into obtaining an item, and that it becoming generally available has ruined it for them. These people are usually laughed off by the general playerbase, not just some supposed philosophical upper crust. That's just been my experience, of course. |
The elemental order set isn't about 'work', it's about spending money.
I don't care that they added the Vanguard stuff and whatever else to the store- not having a life schedule that generally has space for 'raiding' I mostly ignored it, aside from grinding War Zone missions for enough merits to grab the katana for one of my older characters.
In game effort is an entirely different currency than $$$- all you've spent is time, when you'd presumably have been playing the game anyway. You just focused your attention on a certain area for a while.
Cash isn't like that.
If you're going to make a game prize available at a certain price point to one group of players, there's going to be trouble (one way or another) if another group of players is offered the same prize at a different price.
And when that price for the first group of players is a variable....well.
I feel the devs would be well served by leaving this lie.
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My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
And yet they are NOT retiring the packs.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Close enough:
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Either they are RETIRING them, or they are NOT.
Oh, they are NOT. They are removing ONE way of obtaining them. To equate that with 'retiring them' is pure drivel.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
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I don't think Paragon Studios is evil, but yeah, the mechanism is nasty.|
Originally Posted by Mazey
Here's the thing though.
The people against the super-packs already think Paragon Studios are an evil corporation only after money, willing to do whatever nasty gambling tactic gets them the most. |
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Please don't post saying "I'm against the super packs, but I don't think that." it really doesn't matter, that's just the general feeling that's being given off. The important point is that there are negative feelings towards the game because of the super-packs.
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Negative feelings don't just go away, the people spurned by the super-packs are always going to have a lesser opinion of this game now. Sure, there might be a few exceptions, but it's simply true that, for most people who were against the super-packs, the negative feelings are already there.
Releasing the costume set separately isn't going to magically change that. However, releasing the costume set separately most certainly could annoy a whole load of new people. |
You can reduce the negative feelings even if you don't eliminate them. Some player's opinions could change from negative ("they don't care about my money") to a positive ("It is good that they have things that bring them money from limited time exclusives, then everyone can get those later.").
Negative opinions can be changed into positive opinions, just like the opposite can happen.
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Originally Posted by Mazey
The way I see it is that there's little to gain from releasing the costume set separately, but a whole lot of good will that's potentially lost.
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Do you think Snow Globe is typical of the community at large? If so, why oppose their viewpoint? If not, why bring them up at all?
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
So - and perhaps you can understand why I am confused - you were earlier saying that a store option would be tolerable if it were priced high enough, and now you are saying it is impossible to price a store option high enough to be tolerable?
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- If a fixed price was too high, people will complain and be upset.
- If a fixed price was too low, people will complain and be upset.
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Actually, I don't think I am all that unusual in my attitude towards other people getting things in this particular community. It has been my experience during previous incidents of costume availability increasing that there are a few individuals who complain about all of the 'work' they put into obtaining an item, and that it becoming generally available has ruined it for them. These people are usually laughed off by the general playerbase, not just some supposed philosophical upper crust.
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Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Lastly, I'm sorry if my honest desire for as many people as possible to have the things they want in some way offends you.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Yes, it is certainly with-in the realm of possibility that at least one person's opinion would change to be positive.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Negative opinions can be changed into positive opinions, just like the opposite can happen.
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But that is hardly the issue at all.
The fact is that people are much faster to switch from positive to negative than they are from negative to positive.
A company that constantly tries to appease everyone just ends up annoying everyone.
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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Because this is an internet forum?
That's what we do here. |
I was wondering why you were referencing a poster you (apparently) don't agree with.
I was asking if you thought their opinion was the majority opinion - in which case your comments about few people being like SG are hard to parse - or if you thought their opinion wasn't - in which case, why you thought it would carry any weight is hard to parse.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Did I stutter? No? Then why are you confused?
I don't want a store option, period. If they insisted on a store option I would be less hostile to a price point reflecting the high end of what super pack buyers spent than the 'usual' market price. But it would still cost them my commerce on future super pack releases. |
Why is that, when you could almost certainly get it cheaper through the SuperPacks?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The price of the Elemental Order set is fluid, potentially differing for each buyer.
I wouldn't accept a price at the "average"- then you're shafting the people who spent more than that for their sets. |
You are opposed to that price point, and twice that price point, and twice that price point, too, yes?
You are opposed to all price points of any sort, so having a discussion about them makes no sense, yes?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
You don't "earn" super packs, you buy them.
The elemental order set isn't about 'work', it's about spending money. I don't care that they added the Vanguard stuff and whatever else to the store- not having a life schedule that generally has space for 'raiding' I mostly ignored it, aside from grinding War Zone missions for enough merits to grab the katana for one of my older characters. In game effort is an entirely different currency than $$$- all you've spent is time, when you'd presumably have been playing the game anyway. You just focused your attention on a certain area for a while. Cash isn't like that. If you're going to make a game prize available at a certain price point to one group of players, there's going to be trouble (one way or another) if another group of players is offered the same prize at a different price. And when that price for the first group of players is a variable....well. I feel the devs would be well served by leaving this lie. |
Thank you for your time - you've written a lot in response to me, and I appreciate what you had to say, regardless of our level of agreement.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
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Mine's kind of more like this:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
People's opinions are like this image:
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Oh look: apparently I'm hungry. I guess I should start thinking about lunch.
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As far as preferring costume junk to be sold via a store and only via a store, Snowy probably is in the majority. Every time they've taken a step away from the Free Stuff Added to the Tailor paradigm there's been a veritable tsunami of upset.|
Originally Posted by Tetsuko_NA
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
I was wondering why you were referencing a poster you (apparently) don't agree with. I was asking if you thought their opinion was the majority opinion - in which case your comments about few people being like SG are hard to parse - or if you thought their opinion wasn't - in which case, why you thought it would carry any weight is hard to parse. |
But I don't think adding them now, when they've already done their work selling super packs, is a majority attitude. Even if it were it would be a counterproductive decision, from a hey, here's Series Two of our super packs, buy up! perspective.
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| Why is that, when you could almost certainly get it cheaper through the SuperPacks? |
Similarly, I find my interest in farming has evaporated since they started selling IO sets via the store.
Objectively it's still an efficient activity, but my interest has been fatally undermined.
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| This is why I seem confused - if you wouldn't accept any price point for a store option, why are you concerned with saying you don't want a specific price point? |
The difference is between having me actively angry about the decision and having me roll my eyes at the whiners once again getting their way and henceforth ignoring the entire system.
The value of this to anyone besides myself I leave to your discretion.
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You are opposed to that price point, and twice that price point, and twice that price point, too, yes? You are opposed to all price points of any sort, so having a discussion about them makes no sense, yes? |
The price point would determine my level of disgust, but would not make me embrace the idea.
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| At present, the Devs apparently agree with you. |
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| Thank you for your time - you've written a lot in response to me, and I appreciate what you had to say, regardless of our level of agreement. |
Kudos for enduring the snark with good humor and aplomb. =)
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Off topic: I'd been trying to figure out why my interest in finish my builds had waned drastically and I think that's it. I can use merits or inf to get all the non-purples, but it's just easier to spend a few bucks on points and buy a couple of purple sets. Takes 1/10th or less of the time (haven't had a purple drop in weeks that wasn't a damnable catalyst).|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Similarly, I find my interest in farming has evaporated since they started selling IO sets via the store.
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Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program.
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So, how is that anyone else's fault? How about ruining my enjoyment of my RL life wallet, having to fork out for X number of packs instead of the one sum for the costume parts, i.e. THE ONLY THING I WANT OUT OF THE PACK.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It undermines my enjoyment of the 'mini game', so to speak.
Similarly, I find my interest in farming has evaporated since they started selling IO sets via the store. Objectively it's still an efficient activity, but my interest has been fatally undermined. I don't want a store option period, but a store option with an appropriately high pricetag would at least not enrage me. The difference is between having me actively angry about the decision and having me roll my eyes at the whiners once again getting their way and henceforth ignoring the entire system. |
So, y'know, YMMV and all that...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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Because my fun, AKA opening packs, is worth more money than your fun, AKA buying the costume pieces upfront.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, how is that anyone else's fault? How about ruining my enjoyment of my RL life wallet, having to fork out for X number of packs instead of the one sum for the costume parts, i.e. THE ONLY THING I WANT OUT OF THE PACK.
So, y'know, YMMV and all that... |
So, my fun has more value than your fun.
And since this is a business...
1 + 1 = Swordfish.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Because my fun, AKA opening packs, is worth more money than your fun, AKA buying the costume pieces upfront.
So, my fun has more value than your fun. And since this is a business... 1 + 1 = Swordfish. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, how is that anyone else's fault? How about ruining my enjoyment of my RL life wallet, having to fork out for X number of packs instead of the one sum for the costume parts, i.e. THE ONLY THING I WANT OUT OF THE PACK.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Because my fun, AKA opening packs, is worth more money than your fun, AKA buying the costume pieces upfront.
So, my fun has more value than your fun. |
Indeed.
If you don't like the mechanism, don't participate.
I wasn't able to run the TFs so I did without that Roman stuff and the Vanguard stuff.
But as I noted earlier, many complaints seem to have more to do with price than delivery system. "I don't want to potentially buy more packs than I think I should have to!" Ignoring the potential that you'll pay less than 'market price', while also gathering up a ton of other junk with solid in-game resale value.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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So your problem is only that you can't get it at a fixed price?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, how is that anyone else's fault? How about ruining my enjoyment of my RL life wallet, having to fork out for X number of packs instead of the one sum for the costume parts, i.e. THE ONLY THING I WANT OUT OF THE PACK.
So, y'know, YMMV and all that... |
So presumably you'd be fine with the costume pack being in the store priced at, for example, 4,000PP?
Equally, you would surely still have the same problem if the super-packs were dropped in price to 1PP each and no other option was added?
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
i for one do not like the idea of placing stuff like costume pieces and stuff like travel powers into things like this. I am not going to spend or gamble to get a rare any thing would not had done it for the costumes but was offered as a option for vets so spent some vet tokens on them which costed me nothing much as i get free just for subscribing to game. need to do this for other things like the auroras and costume pieces you have to get with threads because not doing the epic stuff sucks too much. I for one do not like raids or being kill needlessly over and over so keep you +1 ect.. levels by that point i am sick of playing most characters any way. but the other stuff i like so give it to me and do not lock away behind crap like that.
Some of my suggestions from posts i have done
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195762&highlight=dbhellfist
boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=278178&highlight=dbhellfist
Here is all My toons
http://img261.imagevenue.com/gallery...9625081-24.php