Just to be clear, there's other origins and story themes than magic, k?

I really like this conceptualization!

Especially since I usually play Natural origin characters.

That's around 14% of the new ones - which seems an ok amount of magic themed stuff.

I invite you to enlighten me.

I think the phrase is self-defining. You consciously stop disbelieving things you know are impossible. My understanding of your claim is that the presence of magic stretches your willing suspension so much that it disrupts it. My claim is that the requisite level of disbelief is so extreme that the are already so unbelievable that introduction of "actual" magic into them essentially changes nothing for my ability to disbelieve.

I feel the non-magical stuff s almost exactly as unbelievable as the non-magic stuff. To me, this means that one must start with essentially the same level of disbelief for the non-magical fare as for the magical. And if one can suspend disbelief for the non-magical fare, suspending it for magic isn't a stretch at all.

Of course, if you don't realize that what you're reading in comics is impossible to essentially magical levels, that's a completely different problem, and a situation I don't think should be encouraged. This is what I meant about "thinking about what's in comics".

Denied. Though please be assured I'm not trying to wind you up. You legitimately don't know what you're talking about. Go research it before you embarrass yourself further.

Technically, if what you say is true - that he doesn't know what he's talking about - then he would have to be enlightened before he could understand that he should be embarrassed.

Everybody does sooner or later.

Wait, things that happen in comics aren't real????

To a very large extent this describes existing stories. Sure, most of them cross a border somewhere between tech and natural. But the story is still one you would expect a natural hero to face. Those that come to mind in the higher levels are the Crey arc that has the Countess using her money and influence to convince the city you are a criminal and the Malta arcs with Crimson and Indigo. Even the Max arc in DA feels like a natural hero's story, even if the enemies don't have natural powers. You briefly get to see the world through Malta's eyes. You get to see what they have to go through to be able to hope to compete with the superhumans around them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Yours is a tactic that I've seen in far too many arguments. You are back peddling fast by accusing your opponent of being ignorant. That article sounds quite a bit like what UberGuy was saying. If you truly believe you are so far above the rest of us in your opinions and knowledge, then enlighten us or continue to be frustrated by our ignorance. It's hardly our fault if we don't understand where you are coming from.

I'm amused that you think anything that could happen in a forum interaction with you could embarrass me. Even if it could, other posters here seem to be affirming my position and not yours. So, either you have a valid argument, and you can defend it via explanation, or your position is untenable, and you wish to avoid revealing it by refusing to explain it.

I'm sure it's clear that I suspect the latter. If you wish to disabuse me of that suspicion, then elaborate on what you mean, or concede that it looks like you object to magic in comic-related settings because you just don't like it.

It is indeed, thanks for linking it. (It hadn't occurred to me to look it up on Wikipedia, as was - and remain - rather sure I know what it means.)

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Mutant themed content can be mutant themed groups. How silly is it to have only the outcasts and sort of carnies representing an entire origin?

I'll keep this brief.

We've already established that we both agree that accepting magic as something in the CoH universe requires further suspension of disbelief from the norm. You don't feel further suspension is significant due to heroes behaving in pseudo-magical ways without the aid of magic. I believe further suspension is significant because heroes behave in pseudo-magical ways without the aid of magic.

So we are both looking at the same thing and coming to opposite conclusions.

Your reasoning is that because so many unbelievable things are taking place, and many of the acts perpetrated by superheroes are largely synonymous with acts perpetrated by magicians, that you wouldn't really have to suspend your disbelief any further. In fact, to you, you've pretty much accepted magic and other things like it (cosmic, etc) as perfectly viable things in this setting. Purely because this setting is so fantastic and unrealistic in the first place, adding magic to it won't really change it all that much.

My reasoning is that because the setting is already so fantastic and unrealistic, that it is therefore delicate when it comes to suspension of disbelief. If we were to add magic to a normal life setting Hary Potter style, then the setting would still be relatively believable because our world, sans magic, wasn't already suspending our disbelief. But when the limits of what is believable are already pushing against the limit, it won't take much to push the setting over the edge from fantastic and unrealistic, into the absolutely ridiculous. The real core of this contention isn't about superheroic acts; we've already established they can be synonymous with magical ones in function. But what about the form? The acceptance of magic means that the laws of nature are no longer absolute. They mean that the metaphysical exists, that souls exist, that gods exist, etc, etc. Accepting magic in this setting is so much more than accepting it as a function of superheroics. It changes the core setting of the game's physical and metaphysical world in a significant way. So to me, such a suspension of disbelief is obviously very significant. And, given that I have looked deeper into this than you; beyond simply the function of magic, but rather at the form of magic; I would say my position is better developed than yours and thus the obvious conclusion.

That all said; my real concern in this thread isn't the presence of magic, but rather the over-presence of magic. It's very easy for me to hand-wave my above concerns if magic is only a minor focus in this game. But if it becomes a core driving focus, then all the genuine concerns I have about magic suddenly become more apparent, and the game's setting becomes all the more ridiculous.

Hrm, Ah, Uh, That's more like it.

Not necessarily; it may mean only that the laws of nature in the CoH multiverse are not the same as ours. Suppose that the speed of light in the CoH universe was a tightly-enforced rule rather than an absolute law; there would have to be some deeper rule or law behind it to govern when/how that rule could be ignored. This different set of laws could be set in such a way that allows magic to exist and be used on the different Earths our PCs visit.

It is absolutely significant, at least, when comparing reality to CoH or even a hypothetical CoH without magic to what we play now. That's a good observation.

So, from what I've read so far, your concern isn't so much that magic is ingame, your concern is that you perceive it to be a force lacking rules, limits, and defining mechanics, and you believe that if its use becomes a 'core driving focus' then that lack of rules, limits, and defining mechanics will spread to the writing of the game itself.

I mean, can people assume that's your argument is, in the stead of 'I don't like magic ingame because I can't believe in it ingame that much?'

In any case, you seem to be focusing on one aspect of a problem I brought up some pages back, regarding 'we don't know what the heck [magic] is,' which is evidence that this is a subject of increasing concern and/or importance that the writers should give a shot at hashing out. That said, I don't think there would need to be an explicit list of rules. I think defining some principles that fit what we've got of magic ingame so far would suffice for the time being, enough to separate the Magic Origin from the Well's 'magic'.

Kind of like the UVA pep band: "The Award-Winning Virginia Fighting Cavalier Indoor/Outdoor Precision(?) Marching Pep Band, & Chowder Society Review, Unlimited!!!. " I believe at one point they were banned from the stadium and would play just outside the gates.

Why is magic the straw that will break the camels back? It has played a long time role in CoH on both blue and redside and has a reasonably established lore. The addition of more magic isn't asking you to make any new concessions that didn't already exist. The magical lore of CoH has long established the presence of souls, gods, and forms of afterlife. Adding new forms of magic isn't asking you to accept anything into the setting that hasn't already existed in one form or another.

On the whole, magic gets a carte blanche from me because it does not exist so it can behave in anyway we imagine. What really strains my suspension of disbelief is the treatment of technology and science; there is no way, as previously mentioned, that a convincing human-sized steam-powered automaton could exist or that the human body can be mutated to generate extreme heat and cold or communicate telepathically. Science and technology in this game violate natural laws in just as grievous ways as magic but also ask to me to put aside what I already know about the natural world.

I'm pretty sure he meant in a general sense, I.e. in various stories.

I'm pretty sure he meant CoH when he said "this setting".

And the question still stands. How does the inclusion of First Ward or Night Ward or the new DA require anymore suspension of disbelief when it doesn't really stretch magic to any new concepts?

I can only think of one, rather specific, example, where it's tech. And maybe one implied one in the Mutineer's Moon novel.
Usually powered by some magic-type power source.
As long as they are in tune and keep the beat - otherwise defeat by them would be embarrassing.