Just to be clear, there's other origins and story themes than magic, k?
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This is why I originally didn't want to legitimise your concerns with a response longer than a couple of sentences. You're not interested in a discussion...and your grasp of English isn't the best.
Because it's not what he wants so he's typing really long arguments that are baseless in the hopes we are too lazy to read them.
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Oh well. Live and learn.
Wow Uber, you had me combing the entire thread to try to find where I'd posted that. I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Neuronia or anyone else should be able to "do what Dream Doctor does," I'm saying he doesn't do anything special in the first place. His dream powers are just a novel veneer for the same plot device used millions of times before. You can "do what he does" by roleplaying it, working it into your description, et cetera. I was saying that if you like his theme, you don't literally need access to a dream set or something, you can just take it and run with it.
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For what it's worth, I appreciated your post, and do want to reply to it. (And not to trash it.) I just have had time yet - it's been a busy last two days. My reply to PleaseRecycle above is the longest thing I've had time to post.
This is why I originally didn't want to legitimise your concerns with a response longer than a couple of sentences. You're not interested in a discussion...and your grasp of English isn't the best.
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Not sure it matters to you if I respond or not, but since I really pushed hard to get you to post it, I at least wanted you to know I did read it.
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Hm, wait, did I misattribute that quote? I thought Neuronia posted that...
Wow Uber, you had me combing the entire thread to try to find where I'd posted that. I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Neuronia or anyone else should be able to "do what Dream Doctor does," I'm saying he doesn't do anything special in the first place. His dream powers are just a novel veneer for the same plot device used millions of times before. You can "do what he does" by roleplaying it, working it into your description, et cetera. I was saying that if you like his theme, you don't literally need access to a dream set or something, you can just take it and run with it.
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Edit: I did. Sorry, dude, I think that was a multi-quote mishap. I was trying to respond to Neuronia.
Blue
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That sounds like you're saying the City of Heroes world no longer supports invention: that anything anyone is doing lots of people should be doing, because everything that can be discovered already has been multiple times.
I don't mind the idea of Dream Doctor as a whole, I just dislike the whole hand-waving aspect that surrounds him.
If you are going to talk about "Dreamspace", then a good parallel is H.P. Lovecraft's "Dreamlands" and its associated access to it in the Call of Cthulhhu role-playing game. In that aspect, you were able to go to the Moon and other areas of the Dreamlands through drug use, magical spells and so on...but it wasn't really limited to one person doing so. The problem with dream or astral travel or planar travel is that...other beings clue on it and exploit it. Again, if Dream Doctor is going into Dreamspace, it begs the question as to why others are not doing so. Where are the Illithids of this game? Or the Gugs and Ghasts? Or the Freddie Kruegers? If Dream Doctor is the only one that can do this...that's veering dangerously close to making him a deity or a Well in and of his own right. We are never given a sufficient explanation of the whole Dreamwalking thing. Even Michael Moorcock, when he explored this in The Fortress of the Pearl, allowed for dreams to be tied to foci and the main protagonist could be kidnapped or killed for her abilities. It's fairly lazy for the devs to use hand-waving this late in the game when event the Circle of Thorns and Mu have SOME explanation to their motives and origins. |
Maybe he's not the only one that traverses Dreamspace. Maybe he's just the only one we know of so far. Maybe he's just the best one. Maybe he's the *last* one, and something bad happened to the others. There's no specific reason why its even a good thing to force the devs to reveal that entire backstory instantly.
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Ah, my mistake for not thinking of that. I just felt like I'd gone crazy for a moment, heh.
* Files away potential means of driving PleaseRecyle mad for future contingency...
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First, let me repeat my thanks to you for posting this when you didn't want to give details. I actually do appreciate that.
I do not quote most of the post below, because I have no specific comments or rebuttals to most of it. You can assume that anything I don't reply to below I either agree with or at least accept without argument.
I would say here that I consider an awful lot of science fiction to already require this acceptance. Consider Arcanaville's comments about Superman's powers being "fueled" by our sun's radiation. That is couched in terms that suggest it relies on as-yet-undiscovered physical laws, but as presented, we know with almost complete certainty that it's actually not possible. Perhaps the difference in effect this has between you and I is that I put the possibility of such a thing being possible under the physical laws of the universe at about the same level of likelihood as of magic being real, but well-hidden from most of the people on Earth.
It seems to me that this is not a simple matter of willing suspension of disbelief. It's not just that magic stretches your credulity to the breaking point. Rather, it's that magic introduces things that you wish to actively reject. In theory you could accept the impossible things "magic" allows, but you don't want to because you disapprove of their thematic implications. They aren't any more unbelievable than the non-magic things, you just don't like them in your setting.
If I go to, say, a movie that introduces magic, gods, etc., I can choose to suspend my disbelief in those things. If the movie breaks my suspension of disbelief, it usually does so by presenting those things in internally inconsistent ways, by plain plot holes, or by bad acting. That's quite separate from me going into a movie and deciding I'm not going to invest in it because I find the notion of real magic, gods and the like distasteful.
I find this while sentence quite bizarre. I see no meaningful indication that you have done what you say, nor any way you can claim to know you have done it more deeply than I. I made no claims about the form of magic from which you could make such an inference, nor did you previously clearly claim to reject it on the basis of its form. My obvious conclusion is that this near-closing comment is an unfortunate stamp of malarkey on an otherwise thought-provoking post.
I do not quote most of the post below, because I have no specific comments or rebuttals to most of it. You can assume that anything I don't reply to below I either agree with or at least accept without argument.
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The real core of this contention isn't about superheroic acts; we've already established they can be synonymous with magical ones in function. But what about the form? The acceptance of magic means that the laws of nature are no longer absolute. |
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They mean that the metaphysical exists, that souls exist, that gods exist, etc, etc. Accepting magic in this setting is so much more than accepting it as a function of superheroics. It changes the core setting of the game's physical and metaphysical world in a significant way. So to me, such a suspension of disbelief is obviously very significant. |
If I go to, say, a movie that introduces magic, gods, etc., I can choose to suspend my disbelief in those things. If the movie breaks my suspension of disbelief, it usually does so by presenting those things in internally inconsistent ways, by plain plot holes, or by bad acting. That's quite separate from me going into a movie and deciding I'm not going to invest in it because I find the notion of real magic, gods and the like distasteful.
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And, given that I have looked deeper into this than you; beyond simply the function of magic, but rather at the form of magic; I would say my position is better developed than yours and thus the obvious conclusion. |
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Well, to be honest, the 'Dreamspace' concept sort of popped up unexpectedly. The only foreshadowing we had on it is the Doctor's mention of it in the Midnighter Archivist clue; we still don't know what it is, what function it has among the other branches off of reality like the Spirit Plane, Psychic Plane, Ether Plane, Netherworld, Hell, etc, etc.
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"Well, they're a story-driven character..."
"If we don't show up you don't have a story to tell, how do we develop these abilities?"
And so on and so on...
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA