Just to be clear, there's other origins and story themes than magic, k?

Prem, did you go premium at some point? I just remember not seeing that lovely avatar of yours but it looks like it's there again...

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Originally Posted by Premonitions I feel Magic doesn't have to be a "Deviation from the norm" to be magic it just has to be COMPLETELY made up(compared to our real world) versus "only slightly/mostly" made up the way science fiction is. It doesn't have to be completely mysterious that would be as if saying a well-thought out system of magic in a setting is no longer magic because it is understood. Wizards in fantasy worlds study magic and come to understand it and how it works. Is it then science? As you say, the rules of what a thing is don't have to necessarily follow our own.

Meeeh, now you're just intruding on author creative concept, that if it's not based primarily on real-world events, then it's MAGIC FICTION.

The point that a few made was: origin doesn't matter. All origin (science, technology, magic) is just means of categorizing tropes which, in and of itself, doesn't matter. You don't need to categorize anything just like you don't need tropes. What it comes down to is if you accept it and keep reading or not and don't. At that point, it's all the interpretation of the reader, which is basically what you wrote in the quote. That's why categorizing stuff like this is so pointless, because you'll never get the majority to agree on how it's done.

But I actually like the way Arcana described it, advancing in any one 'type' of ability will get you closer to indistinguishably. Eventually, you get to a point that your high technology can do so much, so easily and without any real cost, it's about as good as just poofing stuff into existence and it working. Cars and jets and bullet trains sure are awesome at getting people around...can't wait for when all of those transports have 0 requirement for fuel...then throw it away because we can simply teleport to any point in the galaxy...

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Originally Posted by Father Xmas However a programmer may be able to break the fundamentals of magic down to the point where it could be compiled.

What is that? Should I be reading that? I think I might want to read that. Is it good?

I spent an hour reading this thread because I passionately believe that it's about time my magic based Thor-esque main has something to fight that makes sense with the new DA content. At the same time, you don't see me whining that you got your science in my magic. The DA arc gives a few alternate origins for incarnate powers. Requiem "reconnected with his origin" which was the Nictus, so science. Malta is going to work with Battle Maiden to create incarnate nanites for their troops, technology. Arachnos was using a machine to create incarnates, technology or maybe science.

For years, I played a magic origin character in a superhero universe that seemed to think magic meant Croatoa or bearded men in dresses. During that time I didn't complain on the forums. I happily saved the world from clearly tech/sci-fi threats and felt heroic regardless of my origin. You don't see Thor in the Avengers being like "You guys are fighting aliens? F*** that, I'll be in Asgard doing magic stuff." There's no reason why Iron Man or Captain America should complain if they have to help Asgard out from time to time either.

As far as the Well goes, put me in the camp that considers it definitively not magic. As someone pointed out, the Well existed before magic. It is an embodiment of humanity. Everything we create, imagine, and feel fuels the Well. Moreover, the Well is an actual entity. It has a personality and identity. Someone earlier in this thread (I'm too lazy to go back and quote it) seemed to think it has been identified as male. I'm not sure that it has and I have my suspicions otherwise. Regardless, it is clearly in the category of science we don't understand yet. In comic books, that means it is a cosmic power. It doesn't make it magic. In fact, magic seems to be fueled by the Well more directly than any other origin. You can have science, technology, mutations, and combat training without the Well. It just raises your limits a bit. But magic, in its essence, defies explanation. You don't wake up one day and realize you have magic (well you can I guess but it's not like a mutation). Magic requires the imagination and creative power that is embodied by the Well. In that sense, the Well could certainly be called the origin of magic. But to see it only as the origin of magic is to take a narrow and inaccurate view of the larger and more complex nature of the entity itself. Thus, the Well is not inseperable from magic. Magic is just inseperable from the Well. Even Lord Recluse, an incarnate that was present at the Well of the Furies in Greece, does not believe it is magical. He believes it is scientific. And you can check the Web of Arachnos novel to verify that.

Also one final note. Someone said we don't know the origin of Ouroboros. It's technology/science. How do I know that? It's led by a far future version of Nemesis. When has he ever done anything that was magic? Never.

Complete tangent: Does Prometheus say anything new in i22? I haven't had a chance to play the new trial yet in order to check.

@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian

I still think it's a cop out to say that any fictional tech should be considered magic. If the writers wanted it to be magic, they would call it magic. Lightsabers, warp drive, and Iron Mans armor would be magic only if they called it magic. Clearly the writers of these stories intended them to be a form of advanced tech. Galactus is said to have god-like power, but has never been written as a god of anything. Most superhero comics have a clear differentiation between magic, science, and technology. The three may converge powerwise, but it is still the same effect caused in three different ways.

Pressed for time so I'm just hitting this....

Uh since when are Titans magical? The modern concept of magic arose well after Greek legends had become nothing more than historical trivia. The fact that you consider everything supernatural to be necessarily magical seems to be a limitation of your own conception, Venture.

Woosh

Magic doesn't appear to exist for some species, like the Kheldians or Shivans, so their Wells would be totally non-magical.

I still don't understand what qualifies as "superhero" in this context, and what folks want to replace the recent content. I don't think anyone was actually specific on the kinds of story lines they'd prefer to see. Just naming off example of pretty much every hero in comics, which there are a lot of and they have tons of variety to them. Do we want to see more Cosmic content like Silver Surfer, gritty and dark street-level stuff like Batman, powerful colorful spandex-clad action like Superman?

As to Venture's comment about the Well, I do agree with that. The Well story line effing sucks, and needs to be replaced with anything.

this discussion has been fairly entertaining