Premonitions

Holy Cheese that song had lyrics?

Do you not know what "handicap" means?

So we would have had Champions-Online style "movement" powers?

I'd like that

Somewhat

This is a thing I've wanted since.. since forever.
P.S. Put it in Kinetic Control.
P.S.S. make Kinetic Control
P.S.S.S. lie and tell me you where making Kinetic Control.

I was hyped for Psi melee too, but this is a bit different. Compare
"forming a weapon out of psychic energy then using that weapon."
and
"using psychic energy as a weapon."

I don't know that all melee sets need to have direct punching and kicking considering Weapons count as melee.
I think of it more as using the "element" as a weapon.

You use too much of your seat.

Well that sucks. Hope everything works out for the better.


This is a pretty minor quibble. I spent a lot of words going over the relevance of "Power behavior" without really mentioning Damage type. I misunderstood the connection between two aspects in one post but that was kind of at the tail end and doesn't have much of a huge influence on my point about the relevance of the aspect of power behavior. but we've already gone over that.

Yeah, pretty much.
'Kay.

'Kay squared.


See, now, this is an instance of us "Talking past each other" in that you're kind of missing the point of what I'm saying and not taking into account what I'm saying it in response to.You're having a different conversation from the one you started, basically. For context, you asked:
Which seems to mean:
If this isn't what you meant, feel free to correct me.
My response was:
The point here being that the animations and behavior of the hypothetical "elemental melee" sets would hinge on the "element" in question doing all the "heavy lifting".

It's a non-issue for Mr "Generic Hand-to-Hand combat" guy to want those animations because they aren't in the same category. It's the equivalent of wanting Psychic blast or Sonic Blast animations for a martial arts scrapper without the blasts and without the range and behavior, e.t.c. Or, in my given example, Knife animations without the knife.It's the sort of inherently contradictory idea that doesn't really factor in. I'm sure you can find lots of players who might want all kinds of crazy things that are neither good ideas, nor actually relevant to anything.

It's very important to actually come up with an interpretation and stick with it within your fiction.
You can say that one thing(electricity, chemistry, radiation,spaceradiation, e.t.c.) "does everything anytime always constantly", or maybe even two or three things if you cut off one of those words. But you can't say everything "Does everything anytime always constantly" Because that's damn near impossible to actually convey, and because it would make absolutely no sense and be completely incoherent. I don't mean in the "I don't get it" sort of way. I mean in the "has no internal logic or consistency at all" sort of way.

Yeah, see, you're missing the point of the mental exercise again. My issue with Champions is that it defines "Elemental Powers" with one set with one focus. My preference is to try and create a broad Scope with multiple foci that apply an overall concept in multiple ways.

I'm not trying to define "electricity" universally. I'm trying to define "Electric Melee" specifically, and more specifically, define it in a way that has physical motions that hinge on the unique properties of the "Element" in question(as per your request)so as to not share territory with every other elemental Melee set and with "basic" melee concepts.

You're making comparisons to Electric Blast powers, but that's completely opposite to what's going on here. The point is to answer the questions of:

1. What is electric melee?
2. What makes it "Electric melee" and not "electric other thing"?
3. What makes it different from every other form of melee?
4. Why is it that way?

None of those relate to an interpretation of "electricity" as an overall concept. That would most likely be stage two, wherein we devise secondary effects,visuals, and any necessary revisions or additions to the original concept to connect it to the other expression of "electrical powers" within the game for the sake of internal consistency and just to tie everything together neatly.

This could be done "backwards": starting with an overall concept of how electricity is agreed on to behave within the game and then going down into more specific expressions based on that core idea, But I feel starting from the "bottom"(electric melee, control, buff, e.t.c.) and working "up"(what ties them all together, functionally and visually) allows more freedom as you don't start with pre-conceived limitations at the inception.
Starting from the bottom and working up is more like addition, while starting from the top and working down feels like further and further division.
You have to establish boundaries and limitations somewhere. Lest you have "everything doing everything anytime always constantly" Fire has to do do things differently from electricity, otherwise it's pointless to name them different things and give them different visuals and so on.

This doesn't mean they only have to do one type of thing, the way Champions does with but a single set with a single focus for each concept. Electricity can control, blast,buff,debuff,melee, and protect, and so can Fire, Ice, e.t.c. But they have to do these things differently in order for them to be different. City of Heroes accomplishes this with having a set to perform pretty much every function for almost every element. There's precious little "Fire" can't do(in a general sense) in City of heroes. The only thing I can think of is... put out fires. And you know....I'm okay with that. I'm perfectly fine with not being able to set fire on fire.

This is definitely a "thing" but it feels like a self-affecting form of "damage type" to me in that the relevance of it is mostly a behind the scenes numbers thing. So the set includes powers that increase your "resistance", a thing that affects how "damage type" affects you..... eh...okay?

It'd be different if the set had, say, heals and controls and whatnot. But mostly it just does some numbers things that may or may not fully cover every possible expression of a person using a shield.
The problem was they started and ended at "how to make stone different" instead of starting at "using stone" then going on to "different ways to use stone" THEN going to "how to make it different from everyone else." They started at the "top" and pretty much stayed there.
This is where the "Customizing a Generic hand-to-hand combat option" comes into play. If you're not looking for a concept that's uniquely tied to the "element" you can use one that isn't and customize it.

Basically, if you don't care much about the idea of elemental melee being "unique" and just want a variation of "glowy melee" make "regular melee" glowy. This is especially important since making your hands glow should be a basic costume option for anyone of any power type because lots of dudes have glowing hands for various reasons.

Will some people personally disagree with the particular bent you take with the sub-sub category of their specific element of choice? Yes, I'm sure they will. They will most likely be the same kind of people who want "knife-less stabbing" for the "generic hand-to-hand combat" set. But the people who like your interpretation will be happy, the people who are fine with glowing up their regular melee will be happy, the people who really really REALLY love the idea of glowing up their regular melee will be happy.

Pretty much the only people who won't be happy are those who have some extremely personal concept they created and want to express that despite it not having much cultural precedent and possibly benefiting noone else.(I'm kind of in that position with my main, Mobilise, actually) People who want another, slightly more relevant option might be displeased as well.

Nothing stops their ideas from being introduced in the future in a new fashion.(I would have eventually got my Grav/Kintic assault Mobilise dom)

Having "no element-specific melee at all" as a Design philosophy prevents both "electric grappling" "electric pimp-slapping" and "extremely Short-range electric blasting" from ever being made. If the idea that customizing a single blast or melee or control or support set is the answer to these desires, there will never be any Unicorns, just three very unhappy cows.
You really do have bad taste, Sam :P

You should keep in mind that none of this ish matters.


Well I figured "everything" included... well.. everything to the point that spelling it out wasn't necessary. Plus, before I started using that phrase I actually went into explaining why these things where important.
So "everything unique" was shorthand for "that thing I said a few paragraphs up about the things that make a thing unique"

I found the DP energy builders to have a steady and slow rate of fire and the "main attacks" to be very fast. Might consider switching out whatever EB you're using for a Pistols one.

I'm pretty much in the "Close enough is good enough" camp as well. While I've moved more towards using the tools I'm given, most of my ideas hinge upon what would make for good action, when it comes to powers. and for me that means "cool stuff I've never seen before" which usually means "Cool stuff that isn't in this game and probably won't be in any other one because of how much thought I've put into it" As long as I can get something that looks and acts "close enough" I'm happy. Figuring out how to bend builds to concept was a thing I was just getting the hang of recently and made what had previously been "A boring math problem" a fun creative exercise.

This feels like a worse example simply because he sounds like he should be a Dominator
I have no idea what this means. Something about a very strong character, I think.

well, kinda/sorta, depends on the damage type you're talking about, in this game as well as what "damage type" means in other games. Cold damage in this game causes slow, which is definitely an effect you can see. I do believe when fire lands it's DoT it leaves a "burning" effect on enemies. So, there's bits and pieces, it's mostly invisible numbers, though, yeah. I hate that this game is so much invisible numbers rolling dice at each other.

"Damage type" can mean a lot more in other games, Similar to water Dousing fire in ours.

In an action game this would be things like "arcs high" "longer range" "pierces through enemies" and would be much more meaningful to how you viewed things. But it doesn't have to be strictly an action game. You should check out Freedom Force. How powers behave is very important(and also completely customizable) in that game.


roughly, yes.
Not "only ever ever and never anything else in any work" but it's much cooler for someone to take the time and think about the nature of these ideas and how to apply them in a way that not only works with them, but also, somewhat, justifies them being different in the first place.

It's more appropriate than "generic attack number 59" being used for EVERYTHING kind of the way we have it now.
It's also good for making your setting have a unified idea and a consistent treatment of ideas. If certain ideas are "always" shown a certain way in your work, these ideas have more "weight" because they are "solid facts" of your universe. They're walls and pillars upon which you rest your narrative.

"These" being the concept of Visual customization of a generic base and visual and practical uniqueness of multiple sets. You can have both, as we already do in City of Heroes. You can customize your Martial Arts and Street Justice with combat auras to have "Elemental Punches" AND there are actual "Elemental Melee" sets as unique powers with unique attributes to them. It's not an "either/or" situation.


Not if they actually explore the style in a way that hinges on the element.
It's the equivalent of drawing your knife and shooting someone or asking to be able to stab without a blade.

Let's assume, Say, the "electric grappler" has an attack where he pushes himself close to his opponent and channels electricity just with the body contact. No headbutts, no bearhugs, nothing violent at all that could be conceived as "fighting" Just a friendly hug or a pat on the back, and then

BZZZZZZZZT. Dead.

It could be an assassin's strike type option.

Now, how are you going to do that without electricity(or at least some kind of fictional "energy). Is every power in this hypothetical set going to be like that? No, of course not, doesn't need to be, but I figure enough can be done in that fashion to where asking to have the other kid's toys is asking for something you can't actually use.

As for "something similar"? No reason that you can't get "close enough". No reason there can't be a "Martial Arts" and a "Street Justice" and a "Wrestling Melee" e.t.c. Ask me about what I think Martial arts would be in my hypothetical Super-hero MMO sometime.
I have various ideas that don't fit within the confines of Archetypes, it happens.

That's odd, because I find Blasters(and Doms to a lesser extent) to be the most conceptually versatile AT in this game. The limitations they faced where mostly ones of Game balance(powers not being as good or helpful as they needed to be) or Content(Certain powersets don't exist yet but would totally go here someday) This is why I love i24 so much. It solved both of those problems in a big way. *sigh*

Yeah, everybody feels like that when their "one true set" comes out.

I'm already doing that in various capacities here. I do it less now, as I learned to work with the tools given, but still. Learn and adapt and move on. Champions doesn't have Elemental melee. I probably won't make characters with those powers until it does(if I pick up Champions)
I'm always trolling just a little bit. I'm a "Social Superadyne User"
See me at the raves, crumping to Skyway dubstep.
I have so many ideas, bro. SO MANY

I think you're taking this a bit personally, Sam. This is how I talk. I've always talked like this in these little tiffs with you. Further, the rest of this post is coming off a bit melodramatic and hypocritical. I'm only interested in entertaining myself for a bit and(actually) I was banking on you saying something to the effect of "Oh yeah, well what about ICE MELEE? huh? huh?" or something like "Fire melee can be grappley too" or, you know, something other than hysterics.

Make a long post, get a long response
/e shrug



Oh you mean like you did? Because what I thought I was doing was taking the time to separate my points and match them to your own. Like now. Guess I'm just a big ol meaney who respects your opinion enough to take a (very, very, very) long time to work out what you are saying and craft a response to it. I'll be sure o just "TL:DR" or "Cool Story, bro" you from now on.

I noticed that, hence the "if you take away everything that's unique about them..." bit. Visuals are strongly tied to mechanics which help express concepts in video games. This is pretty basic stuff. If things don't go flying back, you can't really say they've been "Knocked back" If a character is frozen solid in a block of ice, but it's action doesn't reflect the visual, then that's kind of a problem with both the visuals and the mechanics, and thus the concept suffers. Again, adding pointless visuals to something doesn't make it fit the concept of doing those things because it doesn't change what is done

It's very important because video games are about doing. Any concept you have is about what your character does. If your character can't do a thing, then they can't do the thing.

I assumed you didn't misunderstand because I, and others, said it a whole bunch of times, particularly around the "damage type" arguments, which is functionally the same thing, or at least a small part of the same argument.

I just assumed you didn't' care for some odd reason, because you didn't seem to express any concern about that idea in any meaningful way.
Kay.
You missed the part where I said these are not Mutually exclusive concepts in the midst of your fit, didn't you? Because I totally said that, you where there, I quoted you.
You where all:
" DUDE! I think being able to visually customize a simplified base concept is more valuable than creating multiple different powers to express subtle variations of the concept of "melee combat" because it allows greater customization of the base concept!"
and I was all:
"BRO! you can totally have it both ways! You can have a "Generic hitting stuff" set and you can visual customization to it, AND you can have multiple unique powersets that explore the differences! We have that RIGHT NOW IN THIS GAME it's like Reeses, man. so awesome"
And then you where all:
"Dude I love Reeses so much"
and I was all:
"Oh jeez, me too, let's get , like a garbage bag full of em, I got 50 buck, brusco, let's roll"
And then we ate Reeses and got sick and cried because some mean Korean Company is killing our favorite game. It was really emotional, don't you remember that?

A couple of them hold interest for me, Powered Armor, Supernatural, and the ability to mix-and match presents some interesting opportunities. It's not completely flawed or completely perfect. We just seem to disagree on what those flaws are.

What is this, some kind of admonishment or threat or something? So weird.
I like to think of them less as insults and more as snappy quips Sorry, but I respect your opinion too much not to address it. But in the interest of maintaining our friendship:
REBUTTAL!

I get that,why is it exempt? It's the exact same mathematical "Thing+Element" concept at work .
"Punch+Fire"
Is conceptually different from
"Sword+fire" how?
or, to put it in your own terms:
If "Punch+fire" is no different from "Karate Chop/grab/slap/kick+Fire" how is "Sharp Object+fire" different from "Punch+Fire"?
You forgot to explain what "Makes sense visually" means, as well.
The quoted section said that a martial artist using kinetic energy(presumably internally generated) and a martial artist using energy-generating magic gloves would look the same.
Essentially your point in this segment appears to be that two characters who differ only in terms of the means in which they acquired(origin)their powers(which are the same) would look the same. So, that's an "origin" argument.

You suggest that, instead of exploring the unique properties of concepts to develop something new and unique, a simple all-around "Base" should be created and allowed for minor cosmetic changes.

As opposed to exploring the potential nuances of the concepts, you propose that we just blanket them all with "punches" and then let cosmetic effects be the only distinguishing elements.

You are arguing for less customization by stating that there should be less to customize as a whole. In response to a complaint that a certain customization option is not available within a certain game.

This was mostly a practical thing than a conceptual thing, animations take time, after all.And, again, City of Heroes didn't invent the concept. In other words, this isn't a conceptual limitation, this is a technical limitation. And this technical limitation is only in a very specific area.

Everything else about the powersets is different(in so much as they yield different results when used)

Well, first and foremost is behavior. Fire does one thing, Electricity another, Ice yet another. "Damage Type" isn't the most important factor, but "attack behavior" is. It's the biggest point of distinction, and, usually, informs the visuals. What powers do, what is known as "Secondary effects" or "damage type" in a "mostly numbers" game like City of Heroes or Champions(-tohit,DoT,Slow, As well as all of the "mostly secondary effect" powers like Power Push, Touch of Fear, Lightning Clap) e.t.c. would be things like "Movement/Hitbox","range" "After Effects","Conditions of use" "priority" e.t.c. in a more dynamic environment such as an action game or just "Fiction"

In other words, the actual way in which these things(Fire, Ice, Electricity, e.t.c.) act differently from each other, enough to make calling them different things and using different effects relevant. If I, say, cover my fist in fire, and punch someone, and they freeze in a block of ice, because the Power I applied the "fire" animation to is designed to freeze the opponent in a block of ice, I'm not doing a good job of faking "Fire Melee". This is true for a Flaming Punch, Kick, Chop, Pheonix Eye Fist, or flick.

Taking the unique aspects of the things you are working with into account is what sets things apart. Fire burns, Electricty shocks, Ice freezes, dark... maybe "corrupts" would be the right word.

Consider how odd it would be to go into Steel canyon with your water blaster, and discover you can't put out fires.This is the closest this game comes to "Power behavior" in a practical, non-numbers sense. It can't practically express the way gravity effects the movement of water, the way water pressure effects things, erosion, water-logging, e.t.c. This game is mostly numbers(in terms of what players directly interact with. ALL video games are, essentially, numbers, but action games hide more of their numbers than City of Heroes does) and a player's ability to calculate the "arc" of their water attack, and how that differs from the "arc" of a fire attack can't be expressed in this game. So we have but one recourse:

Water Beats Fire.

In this game, it's because of the "cold" damage type. But in a game with one "blast" set and numerous visual effects, "damage type" would be less relevant, and probably wouldn't exist. In which case, a "water" customization for blast powers wouldn't be able to put out fires.

How these factors can be best applied within the limitations of the work is up to the creator and the tools at their disposal.

As for animations, well let's look at ATLA, for example.....

Oh hey, you know Avatar. This will make this easy. Yes, marrying physical motions to certain "concepts" based on the established behaviors of those concepts is a good idea an-

Ugh, Sam, please learn to try and know what you are talking about, in the future.
Couple of things:

1. Firebending is Shaolin Longfist Kung-fu
2. Earthbending is Hung-gar Kung-fu
3. Toph Uses Southern Mantis style specifically so she can "feel" things out and then "react", but she still applies earthbending in the same fashion, but with modified hand motions. In other words, she does the exact same thing with her bending but alters it ever so slightly.
4. The bending styles where not designed to fully reflect on the people who used them, but on the behavior and tactical functions of the elements. Everyone uses a certain "base" with a few moves here or there to distinguish their personal tactics.Zuko,Iroh,Ozai, and Azula all use Shaolin Longfist, with a few character-specific moves and distinct approaches to combat. Iroh is Patient, Zuko is bull-headedly aggressive, and Azula is manipulative. but these things are mostly strategy as opposed to direct combat.They are all using Shaolin Longfist forms and all of their fire moves, and is used,essentially the same.

Firebending has little to no defensive moves because they can't really use fire to "block" or "redirect" they pretty much just power through.Offense offense offense.

Airbending, which is Bagua-Zhang(sp?) is almost entirely defensive because there's precious little to be done to directly "kill" someone with wind, so it's mostly movement and redirection.


Earthbending is direct and straightforward because complex manipulations isn't Rock's strong-suit. Earthbenders mostly raise/form and then release stone to go about it's business of smashing.Many earthbenders even make use of pre-existing structures instead of shaping their own.

Their defenses work in similar fashion. They raise a wall to "block" and then that's it. They might then pick up that same wall later and then "punch" but this is different from-

Waterbending is all about the complex manipulations. Water benders hardly ever "fully release" their element, particularly so they can whirl it back into a defensive function whilst still attacking.

Kay.
A "Fire Punch" is not a Purely "mechanical force attack" it's a hybrid concept. It's even in the name

"Fire+Punch"

Ignoring the unique properties of fire and just focusing on the "punch", you'd have a point, but taking both into account, you're wrong.

Here's an example:

How would we make "Electric Melee" unique as a concept?

My idea would be to make it "Electric Grappling" Taking the basic aspects of both concepts and trying to blend them together.

The "Grappling" aspect wouldn't be necessarily tied to any particular known style of wrestling, but extremely close-quarters combat would be essential.

It would focus on a great deal of getting in close, making direct physical contact, and then maintaining that direct physical contact in order to conduct however many volts of electricity you need to into the enemy.

It wouldn't need locks, holds, throws, or takedowns, necessarily. Just a means to keep enemies in close enough for you to "juice" them. It might have a few "rush" powers similar to Champions "Movement" attacks.
It might have a few quick "opening jab" powers that would stun to facilitate longer grabs.

I'd likely put in at least one "one-two" punch power for the sake of general use, but the majority of Electric Melee powers in this set would be about holding on to your enemy for relatively short-ish periods. Lots of "hugging" in this set.

I might also come up with some manner of channeling it through proper conductors. Allowing certain, highly situational powers that would only work within a given environment.

Why? well because If we're making "electric melee" the assumption is you can't throw lighting around. So for whatever reason, you can't just have a power, like, say, Jacob's Ladder in this set. So everything is close. Electricity has to be conducted through appropriate channels in order to have it's effects, so it would need to either be very close or use outside objects(Streams/Rivers, wires, metal stairways, e.t.c.).

Fire, on the other hand, spreads through most things. Even if fire itself doesn't spread, the heat, which causes the burning damage anyway, does.
And, eventually, if you get hot enough, everything burns.

A fire melee set would utilize greater range because even if you can't "throw fire" because it's fire melee, duh, you can still spread it. So it would start at very close range and extend outwards as the fight continued.

Further, fire lingers in a way that electricity doesn't. If you tapped someone with your flaming hand, they would catch on fire.If you tapped someone with an electrified hand, they would feel it's effects immediately and then recover based upon how "tough" or "grounded" they where.

The electricity would travel through them and then leave the body. The fire would hang out for a bit.

There would be lots of maintaining distance by igniting the things around you, or just being extremely hot, and darting in for quick strikes and then retreating (like a flickering flame)

All of this could be Physical in a way that doesn't completely translate into direct strikes. The Electrical Melee Character has to engage in melee, but doesn't have to "hit" anyone. And it has to engage in melee with a timing that doesn't relate to direct physical fighting.

The Fire melee character barely has to touch his opponent, but because of his limitation(melee) he has to keep close, further, he doesn't have to engage in sustained combat, because one hit will yield continuous damage whether he engages or not. He just has to come in close enough to make sure the enemy stays aflame occasionally. He has to stoke the fire.

Not really. What we are talking about here is a casting animation.

Dragon Ball Z had plenty of "energy mouth blasts" nothing about these are unique to the concepts.


I could take them or leave them, but yes, elemental weapons are just as much a broad concept as elemental Melee and a pretty basic thing to not have.

You don't need a set that has "kicks" in the name to have melee. You need a set that has kicks to have kicks, though.



If what you want is "special melee that does something special" then "generic melee that does generic things with the option to put stickers on it" doesn't do what you want.
Please don't put words in my mouth.

I mostly wanted "emanation" points for generic concepts, mostly ranged and control, that where cripplingly specific. Sonic blast being only mouth-fired, e.t.c. With beam rifle as a powerset, I don't really feel a "need" for "gun emanation points" for energy blast. Beam rifle both satisfies the need foe weapon-based energy blasting powers while exploring the unique potential of the idea of a "energy gun"

The "internal arsenal" concept has a lot of unique aspects to it that can't be expressed with "Invisible rifles" Just look at the "Powered armor" set in Champions and Compare it to their "Munitions" set. Both are in the same "framework" but there's a lot of difference between the two.
The ability to color one's powers isn't exactly "Broad" customization. Five different powers that do five different things, each with color customization, is different from one power that does one thing with color customization. It's so fundamentally different, that I don't really think they bear discussing in the same breath. It's like saying being able to open or remove the hood of the trunk on a sedan is somehow better than being able to purchase either a Sedan or a Pick-up truck.

That's a flaw in design, not concept.

Having less options isn't greater customization.


If you make them different then they will be different. Even if the animation is the same, if I can freeze with my ice melee and set someone on fire with my fire melee, you really don't need to have it explained to you why those things are different

You are literally asking:

"If you take away everything that makes them unique, then how are they unique?"
Ehh, no you don't. You agree with what you think I said. What I said was "In the case that alternate, elemental melee energy builders get introduced into Champions, they will all probably look alike because all the ranged energy builders look alike." This isn't an endorsement or a statement of quality, this is just a prediction based on previous examples.

That's fine, that's not what we're talking about, though.


Consider this:

Hypothetically there is a game that allows you to customize appearance and use powersets similar to this game. One of the Powersets is "Hand-To-Hand Combat" and another is "Electric Grappling". Assume "Hand-to-Hand Combat" is punches and kicks, and maybe even some grabs, with the option to apply combat auras, and Electric Grappling is the Hypothetical Powerset described above, also with the option to apply combat auras the way we currently can. One day "Electric Grappling" Disappears, did the players of that game lose or gain a customization option?

You've sort of missed my point entirely. Having a Normal Punch. and Also a Fire Blast Attack, is not equivalent to having "fire melee". Your idea of "energy blasting and also being able to survive, and maybe also punch sometimes" is not related to Energy Melee at all, is what I'm saying.


So people deciding how (mostly)fictional concepts should be used is out of the question? Because I'm pretty sure "figuring out how your stuff works and making it consistent" is kind of a key element of introducing unique stuff in fiction.

If "Dark Energy" is said to exist within a narrative, it would be somewhat pointless to claim it is different in some way from anything else(I.e naming it) if you're not going to actually show that. Or show inconsistent behavior. Again, if there's a Dark Blast in a game, and it does certain things, a punch with dark effects around it that doesn't also do those things is inconsistent behavior. It's not a "dark punch" if it doesn't behave like "Dark" is established to behave.

The minute we disregard the potential uniqueness of the concept, we pretty much make doing it pointless.There's no point in introducing "fire" in any kind of meaningful way if we're not going to have it do something unique from "frog". Frog and Fire are the same thing if they don't actually act differently from each other.

Realism isn't the point, narrative consistency is. If something introduces X concept, states that X concept behaves a certain way, and then applies that concept in conjunction with ANOTHER concept, things should remain consistent.

P.S. if that's the case, then guns don't kill. :P
Why not?
It is if the setting says it is.

I never said "Only this way" I said "Melee isn't ranged, Sticking a Glowy animation on a different concept isn't necessarily the same."

I also said "Using the unique properties of X concept to make it distinct can make things better and was my preference".
I don't know why you're conflating this into "fire can ONLY be performed with open-handed palm-thrusts" or whatever it is you're on about.

It's a good idea to pick one and stick with it within your fiction, though, less it get's messy and poorly written.

So, why, exactly, Should someone who wants to have unique animations and effects tied to a specific type of power be held back by someone who doesn't really care so long as the effects are there?

If I want, say "Electric Grappling" and "Electric Grappling" is a powerset and "Hand-To-Hand Combat" is a powerset, why exactly does "Electric Grapping" need to not exist just so the person who wants "electric punching" can feel satisfied?
I'm pretty sure you disagreed with me on this exact idea in a very long discussion with your point being "The animations are what make Martial Arts(The City of Heroes powerset) unique" when I said "The Lack of the distinct visual effects, damage type, secondary effects, and power mechanics of "Elemental melee" powers are what makes Martial Arts unique" In other words, it wasn't the whoosh-pow kicks that made Martial Arts truly unique, it was that it was a "Not Laser-punch" to everything else's "Laser-Punch".

This discussion was especially annoying, because I do believe it was
post-i16 and Martial Artists could go without Whoosh-pow kicks at the time.

Outside of your personal grudge with Darkness Melee, and your desire to be "right" in this discussion, what changed your mind?
eh, Don't care either way about this, Re: this discussion. That is another discussion to have for another time.
Why, exactly? Your point seems to hinge on your dislike of the concept, and nothing else.

You think I'm arguing that I can't customize other powers enough. No idea why. Not that I disagree about the lack of customization,just that it's not this discussion. I'm arguing that a power concept doesn't exist, and that this absence is a negative.

These are not the mutually exclusive concepts you think they are. Even more so because these concepts not being mutually exclusive is a proven fact ON THE GAME THIS MESSAGE BOARD IS MADE FOR.

Currently, in City of Heroes there are sets that attempt to explore the unique potential of the concept of "Elemental Melee" and a Martial Arts set with the option to use Combat auras, for ANY character, regardless of powerset. And even procs and Incarnate powers for damage type and secondary effects.

The game hasn't been completely destroyed by this set-up yet..... aw dammit.

Allowing for one doesn't necessarily negate the existence of the other. Moreover, creating more diversity within certain power-types allows for MORE creativity. If there's, "electric Grappling" "Fire Tapping" "Energy Hand-fighting" and "Darkness spooky grasping" and also "Hand-to-Hand combat" then everyone gets something they want. If there's only "Hand-to-hand Combat" than only the "Hand-To-Hand Combat fans get what they want, with a minor bone thrown to everyone else with minor cosmetic options(They will always be minor options in your idea, unless you just create full-on power creation like Freedom Force, which is completely different from what we are discussing)

And if you had your way, you wouldn't have that one Fire/fire and neither would anyone else.


I don't think I can properly explain an idea I'm not arguing in favor of.


I'm not tripping over anything, sweetheart.

I expect this to continue on until either I get bored or you start sticking your fingers in your ears. Well, sticking your fingers in deeper and going "LALALAALALALA" Since your digits are clearly in your ears at the moment.

These are two completely different things you are talking about. one is general cosmetic customization, and another is power design.
Again, there's no answer to your question of: "If you take away what's unique about them, how are they unique" that doesn't agree with your argument because it's a fallacy of a question.
I feel like it's an Overwhelming exception, but I also feel like that's the wrong term, somebody help me out.
Ice freezes and is ice, fire burns, and is fire. These are two different things. Melee, range, control, they are still two different things.

Fire controls, Blasts, and Melees via burning and being fire.
Ice controls, blasts, and melees via freezing and being ice.

The rest of it, such as animations, hinges on how much someone wants to integrate what these things do into how they are applied. It's optional, but what you create will be better for having put more thought into it.
No we won't, because you generally refuse to listen to, or even address the actual points being made by people who disagree with you.
This is pretty much my thinking as well. If I do decide to go to Champions(I'm strongly considering not doing the MMO thing for a while, honestly) I'm not going to try and "re-create" my City of Heroes characters. I'm confident enough that I can create new ideas that make use of the ample tools Champions Online offers.

Okay. but, just one question:
Why? because this seems like the exact same concept.
This is just not true at all. You are only limited by your own creativity and the tools at your disposal.
Define "make sense visually" because for me that means "things that occur on screen appear to be interacting in an observable manner."
I don't really see what the "origin" discussion has to do with this.

This is the entirety of the point. Not having elemental powers as melee powers is the exact same thing as not having earth control powers.

Fine then, come up with new animations for each one.Excluding of course the energy builders, since all ranged ones look exactly the same as well. This isn't 100% necessary, really, but it would certainly be more fun for my tastes.

I don't know why you insist that everything has to look exactly the same. While also, contradictorily suggesting that actually making everything look and also function the same is somehow a solution to the problem of everything looking and functioning the same.
Think of it as doing any other kind of melee attack that would be stylistically appropriate to the concept of the "element" in question.(Also, defining what "darkness" is and does kind of matters here, because if you get punched, with say, a life-draining fist, that pretty much is cut and dry)

okay, first, you really need to deepen your reference pool.
Second, There where examples of "energy blasts" being used differently in Dragon Ball/DBZ
Kienzan/Destructo Disc
Tri beam
Kamehamea Wave
these became less relevant as the characters using them became less relevant themselves and quality waned in filler-filled(derp) fight scenes, but that's not in inherent flaw of the concepts, that's just bad writing.

Third, this is where function factors in. The Kienzan had to be held up, swayed, and then swung, flying in an arc. Wherein it would cut the target. This is different from the Masenko-ha which was an exploding ball. Despite both needing to be charged over-head, and then fired in an arc, they behaved differently.

A Martial Arts(power set) punch with a dark aura is different even From the exact same punch animation that causes fear, life drain, -tohit, e.t.c.
They behave differently in order to better represent different concepts.
By the same token, the "Martial arts+cosmetic effects+some dark ranged blast powers" doesn't work because of the disconnect between The effects the dark blast powers have and the effects the martial arts powers have. What I'm doing at range isn't the same thing as what I'm doing in melee. The difference in such things would be clear as day. Instead of using the same element in melee and at range. You're using glowing martial arts in melee, and shooting an element at range. The only thread of connection is the visual. It's Bessie the Unicorn all over again.
You did not just lie on yourself like that, Sam. Bad Sam. very, very bad. Go to your room.

Please actually do that, then.
Non-punching. Ranged attacks. Unless you're about to argue that using ranged attacks in melee means you have melee attacks(in which case why have melee at all?)

People want Elemental Melee, the concept, not Energy Melee, the Paragon Studios, City of Heroes Melee Archetype powerset. Hopefully other people put their own spin on the idea, otherwise why do it at all?

City of Heroes has clearly trained you in only viewing "X-thing" melee a certain way, maybe because it is the first place you have ever seen it, but most people have seen it elsewhere and are so used to the idea that they can imagine it multiple ways.It's not even interesting anymore. It's pretty much just a basic concept for me(the reason it not being in Champs is such an annoyance, it's like not having fire powers at all.) I don't need Elemental Melee explained. I see a dude with a flaming hand, I know fire melee of some type is about to go down.

I only stand up and take notice when a work takes the time to explore the unique potential in the idea. Similar to the "Scythes" discussion we had before. Seeing somebody use a scythe doesn't really budge me unless they use the unique properties of the weapon to craft interesting action sequences.

Punching is just visual and verbal shorthand being used because it's the most obvious way to visually describe melee combat. This is most likely why it was used for Elec/Dark/Energy melees in this game. It's the most readily understood expression of hand-to hand combat. Further, it's the only real tool both of these games have to represent it, punching, kicking, slapping, chopping, maybe, but more intricate melee combat concepts are not available within either engines(so far as I know, Champions let's you grab and throw objects, but not people) exploring new options would give Champs and edge, not having even basic punching puts it behind.

Unless you think every MA scrapper has absolutely no ability to grapple, despite being talented enough at hand-to-hand combat(which includes grappling) that they use it to fight crime, You have to recognize where design limitations come into play in how powers are made, and how that relates to the actual broader ideas behind the powers.
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Please join us in the discussion we're actually having. You're turning this into a discussion of:
1:"It sucks I can't make an energy melee character"
2"well just put an energy visual on regular punches and maybe have an energy blast power"
1"That's really not the same thing"
2"BUT IT'S PUNCHES"
1"Still not the same thing"
2"Well, Energy Punches are stupid anyway"

Yeah, honestly. But I don't want to play them all on the same control scheme. If playing as Spider-man gave me a control scheme similar to the Spider-man(movie) 2 game or Ultimate Spider-Man and playing as Hulk gave me something similar to Hulk:Ultimate Destruction, and so on, I'd love it.

This isn't 100% Accurate. It's technically accurate in that ALL melee attack powers are essentially just pretty attacks for the same thing, melee attacks. But you really can't say that Martial Arts/Street Justice and Electric Melee are exactly the same, save for pretty effects and damage type.

The sets were designed to have unique mechanics and behaviors to differentiate between them(even though I personally feel they never did enough in this regard, that's probably more engine limitations than anything else).

What many people are suggesting in this scenario is the Champions equivalent of playing a Street Justice character, Using a Combat Aura, and putting an energy damage proc in the tier 1. And then maybe taking an electric mastery epic.

I think you can understand that is nothing like the concept of "Electric Melee" when you compare it to an actual Electric melee set.

It's not even a pale imitation. It's a cow with a horn stapled to it's head and "Unicorn" painted on the side.

Think of it this way. The last time I played Champions a good bit of advice I was given about Power selection was to pick three or four "Bread and butter" attacks. The first two being your energy builder and the starter power, the third most likely some manner of AoE and the fourth being a "facilitation" power that helped you do what you needed to do, Like a Lunge or Pull power for melee characters. Then, of course, you pick your passive, your energy unlock, a heal, and that's about it. The rest was for "Flavor" or "concept".

What people hoping to have more "special melee"(and also control or support, this is getting lost in the conversation) need in this situation is for the "Bread and butter" powers to be the "Special melee" options. Having "Normal" Martial Arts punches and kicks, as the bread and butter, and electric blast attacks as "the flavor" is a different thing entirely from "electric melee" It's the Champions Equivalent of an Electric Blast/Martial Combat blaster. Again, not the same

I think the problem you're having is that you're sort of imposing your own, inaccurate interpretation on a very literal power concept that doesn't have much room for interpretation.

Interestingly, this is pretty much exactly my problem with Champions. Basically you're thinking "Why would someone use their energy blast powers to punch?" based on the assumption that there's only one type of energy power: blasting.

This is not the case, simply because it's fictional and obeys the rules set by the fiction. There are no types of energy powers until the fiction says so. And they only behave in the way that the fiction say they do. It's not "energy blast powers used to punch" It's "Energy Punch" that's the beginning and end of the power concept. Until it is stated otherwise, that is it. Just "energy punch"

What you think you are looking at is:
A man, with a gun strapped to his waist, choosing to fight hand to hand with all his enemies and never use his gun.

To which you respond:

"Why doesn't he use his gun?"

What you are actually looking at is:

An unarmed man fighting unarmed.

To which you respond:

"Why doesn't he use his gun?"(that he doesn't have)
The "yet" is a big thing here. Considering the way Champions plays now, there's very little reason for the sets to be designed as they are. They could have just as easily been One melee energy builder, one ranged, Two melee attacks, two ranged attacks, two or three control/debuff abilities, two support abilities, and the essentials.

What's interesting is, while Archetypes was an absolutely terrible way for the game to go free, it seems to have caused a shift in the thought process of the Devs.

Because Archetypes are designed with the intent to emulate popular fictional characters, it sometimes comes up that there is no "proper" power to express certain concepts intrinsic to the Character type. For instance The Fist and The Master would suit pretty much the same concept, but the need to display a difference in fighting style creates the differently animated but almost completely identical powers they have. It's pretty much just a Martial Arts Scrapper and a Street Justice Scrapper.
Another example is the Night Avenger Archetype. Which adds a few powers to both the fighting claws set and the Gadgeteering set in order to better flesh out the concept.

There also doesn't seem to be much of a balance consideration in regards to how many powers can be in a set, which is good, as it means more can just be added. It's likely that these concepts ("elemental melee/control/buff) will find their way in, eventually.

I've found that the biggest gap between Champions and City (excluding my personal opinion about both) is just one of content. Champions has power options that City of Heroes doesn't have, and City of Heroes has power options Champions doesn't have. As Both games release new power concepts, the gap changes.

When it launched, Champions had Dual Pistols Powers, and City of heroes didn't. City of Heroes closed that gap with the Dual Pistols Set. Champions allowed people to use dual pistols and martial arts together, and City of Heroes closed that gap with...... aw man...