Just to be clear, there's other origins and story themes than magic, k?

Yeah I dropped to preem status for a while for reasons.


Maybe? I just feel like there is a point where distinctions are so broad as to be pointless, and a point where they are so narrow as to be needless nitpicking and I tend to draw the line somewhere in the middle. I like to think there's SOME distinction between Science-Fiction and Magic Fiction but:

I agree with this. MY point in categorizing these is so I know how and why I like my things and if I want to say

To somebody, They can say:
Pretty much the point of all Speculative Fiction is to wonder, yes?

I've found it quite enchanting.

And the cool part is how it's happening in this perverse warped cthuluish landscape and there's hordes of ZOMBIES and mythical creatures everywhere!

Oh, wait. That's not what they're doing at all. Because they're telling a superhero story where magic plays a role, not a magic story where superheroes could just as well be replaced with Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, and Fairies.

We can haz retcon plz?

That sounds like a great idea for the Well, an amalgamation of all the origins. Perhaps a being that was physical, technologically, and spiritually advanced but inspired different individuals to emulate it through different means.

Except Paragon isn't doing that. They haven't replaced everything with a warped mystical landscape with hordes of zombies and mythical creatures everywhere. Just Dark Astoria, which has been a zone steeped in magic from the day it was released. We clamored for a Dark Astoria remake, wanting actual stories and lore for the zone instead of just passing through it for the occasional mission or as a good place to hunt zombies.

What did you think you were going to get when they gave us that remake? I expected a story steeped in magic to go with the zone steeped in magic. You expected to learn that Dr. Vazhilok engineered a plague that killed everyone in the zone, but the Banished Pantheon got there and harvested all the corpses that he worked so hard to create? Or that the Banished Pantheon isn't using magic to animate the zombies at all, but animating them with nanotechnology?

And City of Heroes is a superhero game where magic plays a role. Right after you finish with a Dark Astoria arc, you can go to the Rikti War Zone and take part in a Mothership Raid, or beat down some Malta and Knives of Artemis, or foil one of Nemesis' schemes (or did you really help him by destroying that Warhulk factory, only Nemesis knows for sure). I'll grant that Mutants don't have much going on after the Outcasts drop off the radar, but every other origin is pretty well supported all the way to level 50.

Your tech and science "superhero stories" are coming. The Shivans aren't magical (so I guess they didn't release Drowning in Blood at the same time they released Issue 22), and neither are the Battalion. American superhero stories embrace a wide variety of themes, magic being one of them.

You know, the magic story seemed to work just fine even when I ran my android villain through it. And the rest of the game didn't change much when I played a werewolf all the way through. I wonder if someone should have told Max and the various Malta directors that they needed to use wands instead of supertechnology or bombs to help you defeat the Knives.

I found Dark Astoria to be a very refreshing change of pace from the relentless Praetorian content we've been getting. I'm sorry that you don't like it.

DA is mostly just a normal city zone - only the graveyard has become warped.

Let's see here. Green Lantern. Has a ring with a symbol on it, made by a bunch of mysterious old dudes in robes. He has to place it inside another item made by same men to recharge it. In some versions he has to speak a particular rhyme to activate it. The ring allows him to manipulate a particular kind of energy to do whatever he wills. There was even a storyline where evil ring users brought back the dead to serve them and everyone needed various colored rings to beat them.

He certainly has all the trappings of a magic-item-user, but I can't really see anyone referring to him as such without being intentionally dismissive. "Oh, sure, have Hal and his magic Green Lantern ring fix everything." In this case at least, 'Magic' could stand for 'I don't like the mechanism and don't really care to find out how it works'.

Same thing with the Well. If you like it, it's Kirby's Power Cosmic or the Phoenix Force. If you don't like it, then it's magic. If you consider Mot a credible threat that really makes your character feel like they're saving the world, then he's Galactus. If you don't, he's a magic dude who makes magic zombies.

Yes, he does.

He explains that the Well of the Furies is actually only one of many "wells" of power. The human well (which, yes, he specifically explains is a "he" and not an "it") was discovered very early in humanity's cultural advancement, and is perceived as a well because that was a human ideal of a source of life and advancement - a literal oasis in the desert, if you will. He also mentions that the Kheldians' well is perceived by them as formless being of pure energy, because that is what their ideal source of perfection and power is.

He also explains that it is called the "Well of the Furies" because he turned some crazy ladies into "the Furies" to be his will in our multiverse while he's napping - these are the beings behind the Talons of Vengeance and the goings-on in First Ward. Another note is that he goes into a lot of detail about how he really dislikes our well on a personal level.

The basic description of how a "well" works is that they are some sort of incredibly powerful meta-psionic beings that link to every life-form in their child species, and are sustained and grown by the collective of their species' advancements and power. This is why I said they're not magical - they're described more as a sort of hive-mind-host-parasite symbiote type thing.

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

That's where you disagree with basically the entirety of the science fiction industry. Speculative science fiction often just "makes things up." It doesn't derive everything from actual scientific principles, at least as someone who actually understands science knows them. They may dress them up in technobabble good enough to fool people who don't know anything, but that's not the same thing.

The common thread that usually binds most people's definitions of science fiction is that the story itself *relies* on a consistent scientifically grounded approach to the novel things introduced within it. But it often starts with a completely made up premise. From that premise, they see where they can go. Hard science fiction tries to extrapolate from known science, but not all science fiction is equally hard in that regard.

Saying "superman is powered by solar energy" is no different than saying Galactus is powered by cosmic energy. Superman is getting about a kilowatt of power from the Sun during the daytime: that's not enough to lift himself off the ground much less fly around. And that's separate from the fact that its scientifically impossible for x-ray vision to work the way Superman uses it, that his ability to fly violates the law of conservation of momentum, that the level of invulnerability he possesses is structurally impossible for his mass. These things are only scientifically plausible in a genuine sense to people who don't know anything about science.

At least Galactus taps an energy source that delivers more power than the average home electrical wall outlet. Cosmic energy could be anything: it could be vacuum energy, or string binding energy, or an as-yet unknown vector field, or dark energy, or inflation energy. All these things exist on magnitude levels capable of vaporizing the Earth. The amount of solar energy that strikes Superman is barely enough to boil a decent sized pot of water.


In fact, the only scientific theory that plausibly explains Superman's solar dependence, and you have to make a whole bunch of miracle exceptions just to explain how those abilities can exist at all, is that solar radiation is actually just a catalyst for an energy source specific to Superman himself. His own body somehow generates all the power to do what he does, but it needs solar radiation to catalyze the reaction for some reason. Kryptonians might have evolved to use the radiation from their weaker red sun, and the higher radiation intensity from Earth's Sun radically increases their power. That also explains why Kryptonite can have such a deleterious effect on them: the radiation from Kryptonite isn't enough to kill them, its essentially a metabolic poison to them. It destabilizes their natural energy producing systems just as solar radiation energizes them.

The effort it takes to get all the way to the point where you have a plausible mechanism for solar dependence, and then a power source strong enough to produce his abilities, and *then* a set of mechanisms to allow those abilities to even exist, is way past the point of plausibly explaining how Galactus can exist.

If Professor X isn't magic, then psionic abilities exist, and the astral plane exists. Making the leap to say its possible for conscious minds to create consensus personifications is not a big leap at all. Its all built on a house of sand scientifically, but that's not because personifications are unscientific, but because the entire edifice is: an astral plane where they might originally form is unscientific, and astral projection is unscientific, and psionic powers are unscientific, and that's because Professor X is unscientific.

He's not magic because he exists within the realm of science fiction, not magical fantasy. Not especially hard science fiction, but science fiction nonetheless. And he violates the same number of laws of physics as Galactus does, and he violates them just as badly. Actually, probably worse.

Too bad that's already almost exactly what the Well is. Just because he has an intelligence and a personality and immortal servents that he created with his power doesn't make him any less that. It just means unimaginative people get him confused with Gandalf.

This post invalidates your original arguments. Just thought you might want to know that.


I'm not really sure why people have a problem with the Well. I find the lore about it fascinating and am excited to learn more. Interestingly, I note that most people who complain about the Well don't seem to offer up an alternative. The Well was always going to seem magical. Incarnates were always going to seem magical. The Well in its current form is significantly more origin neutral than it could have been and originally was in Statesman's backstory.

If you don't like the storylines in the game I would like to inform you that you don't have to play it. I personally have found recent content to be much more exciting and higher quality than older content. It's hard to make a case that story telling hasn't made a huge leap lately. Even if you aren't a fan of the story being told.

Me stating that my opinion is different from others somehow invalidates my point that my opinion is different from others?
My only problem with the Well storyline is the involvement of my characters in it. I.e. I'm okay fighting other people empowered by the well. I don't like that I also have to be powered by it. e.t.c. MY spells and MY super-quantrinos are the best, thank you very much.
People are free to discuss what they wish.
I agree with this, though. Compared to the early content newer works have been of a higher standard, and I have enjoyed most of it, even the parts I disagreed with I found interesting.

That may be, but you cannot criticize an industry by first redefining it in a manner inconsistent with their own definitions. You can choose to believe that cosmically powered beings are magic, but its less defensible to say "the whole idea that 'Cosmic' is anything other than magic is kind of odd considering Science doesn't say jack crap about these concepts and tends to go against them." It shouldn't be odd if you know the mainstream definition of science fiction and fantasy corroborates that, and you deliberately ignore that to follow your own definition.

Separate from that, Science says its far more plausible to say that Galactus is powered by cosmic energy than Superman is powered by Solar Energy. The first statement is highly speculative. The second violates the law of conservation of energy. You can make up your own definition of science fiction if you like, but you cannot make up your own definition of Science. Not in a public discussion about Science.

To expand. My personal opinion is that Science-Fiction starts by utilizing it's ideas in real-world things, regardless of how far it takes it, whereas Magical-Fiction starts from a place of Philosophical or religious things and goes from there. Again, If they break down the magic, explain how the life-force energy, Ghost beams, spirit animals and elements and what have you worked. I would still view these things as "magic" based on how they are presented,the setting they are in, and the point of origin of the concepts. But either way that is how I view it.

I don't think I need to Append "In my personal opinion" to every statement I make about something, particularly when I open by saying
although
This is true.

You'd be surprised how often people think it's not necessary when it actually is, especially when one's opinions start looking a lot like statements of fact.

You don't but common courtesy requires you judge something by either its own definitions or the commonly accepted ones, and not ones uniquely your own, unless you *explicitly* state otherwise. The presumption is that you're doing the former and not the latter in a critique. Otherwise, other people would be free to do likewise: I could judge your posts by my own definitions of every word you use, and then state that its only my opinion and complain about having to preface my posts with that statement.

You should comment with the presumption of reciprocity.

I... did?
Again, I open or close with phrases like that in all my posts. Do I need to make every other sentence I type end or begin with those types of phrases?
Edit:
I understand how this is coming off as someone engaging in bull-talk and I can't really do anything to change that, but I'm really not trying to come across as such, here.

I have no issue with people categorizing things. It's sort of human nature. The only real problem with it is when you start trying to tie it down to rules to pigeonhole things rather than leaving things broad to work as a guide. That and it makes tropes more obvious...and tropes aren't a good thing. They're not bad as they seem inevitable, but they're not good either.

Another thing about that genre rule categorization is, you'll undoubtedly run into creators/writers that go into their process with such rules in mind and intentionally *FLIP* them in order to make their work stand out. I'm sure, out there somewhere (hopes someone has their list of links ready) someone has taken the religious/philosophical angle of a piece of literature or history then expand on it in the way you describe they would Science-Fiction.

The idea isn't to hardwire fiction into one category or the other but to notice the links to those genres then drop the effort of categorizing completely to enjoy the story...that or just accept that things can fit into multiple categories at the same time equally.

And speaking of that, I'm in this stint of liking mixed origins for whatever reason...thinking it may be kind of interesting in CoX to do more of that. We need mutation, right? Well, we've got sentient computers and robots that can be massed produced and copied millions of times quickly, right? Maybe machines can be the point of mutation storylines in CoX, the errors in their programming being further incorporated into their systems and resulting in a variety of results, going so far as to assimilate with people and mutating their DNA (I'd imagine they'd target the Freakshow first) into a whole new race.

Even before the Well was introduced into the lore, I was already complaining about the Origin of Power storyline which seemed to take the five origins, already on shaky ground, and make them even more shaky. I worried that Origin of Power was implying that all five origins were just constructs of some higher power, and that made no sense even when allowing for the shaky definitions of the origins, and separately made the definitions of the origins even less tenable. And I suggested an alternative at the time, which I mentioned here: the "origin of power" could be potential. The universe allows for great potential, and the five origins are really just different paths to that potential. That's why "natural" even exists: its a way to seek that potential without supplementary aids. Science seeks to explore that potential with the tools of Science. Technology seeks to instantiate that potential with the tools of Technology. Mutation occasionally releases that potential in living beings. And Magic tries to attain that potential through mystical means. And the reason why the five origins' definitions seek shaky and blurry is because that really a limitation of human understanding. In reality, those five paths are just the five paths that human beings carved out in the wilderness. On another planet, there might be five different paths, or eight, or only two. Maybe on an ocean world somewhere, intelligent dolphins pursue a Musical path to power.

The point is that the Origins aren't Power, these are Paths to Power. And the number of paths to power is limited only by imagination. And since all paths lead to the same power, none are superior to the others. That's why technology isn't superior to natural. Technology is better than no technology, but using technology to explore potential isn't necessarily better than seeking natural ways to unlock that same potential.

In my version of Origin of Power, the Well of the Furies would be a roadblock on those paths to power. Like a test. Something that in trying to achieve greater potential represents the limitations of the human mind. It would be the temptation to self-destruct, the threat of triggering insanity, the fear of going beyond a certain point. It would be a reflection of our darker sides, which empowered certain beings as echos of our darker natures. Thus: Reichsman, Romulus, Tyrant.

Prometheus would be our guide past the Well: someone who would allow us to outgrow it and move past it, and on to the next threat. And because the nature of the Well is to reflect our worst natures, Prometheus would be limited in what he could tell us about it. Because telling us about it would empower it against us, because he would be feeding our darker natures with more information inadvertently.

With all due respect to the writers, I honestly believe that works better, and it doesn't eliminate any opportunities for storytelling that the current version otherwise enables. Everything they did up to this point they could have done with this structure, only better in my opinion.

Others might disagree of course, but I do have an alternative in mind when I criticize both Origin of Power and the Well of the Furies storylines. In fact its precisely *because* I can see an elegant way out that I'm more critical than normal: the bizarro errors in OoP and the Well seem like they would have been so easy to correct, and that's not just in hindsight, because the basics of this idea I posted soon after Origin of Power was released.

The main guy is magical. But he's invading the planet with aliens and is using technology. Thus, the general aesthetic of the film isn't really magical.

Would you call The Avengers a magical themed film? No. Of course not.

Would you call Issue 23 a magical themed update? Yes. Of course you would.

Best counter-post in the thread though. And it did get me thinking. You can't really do magic in a superhero game unless it's a tertiary focus. Dedicating entire zones (note the plural) to it does make CoH just feel generic video-gamey.

This is a niche western superhero video game. Embrace that and make money ffs. Koreans aren't going to play this.

By the same token, then, could we consider things like RWZ, Hamidon, etc, not magically themed? The general aesthetics are definitely not magical, despite the occasional mention of it.

Unless you're going to start telling me that characters like Thor and Wonder Woman aren't Western superheroes, I see no reason we can't have some strongly magic-themed zones just as we have some strongly magic-themed superheroes and strongly magic-themed superhero stories.

Edit: Hamidon is not a place *self facepalm*

I still don't understand the hate on magic. In the Justice League cartoon series, a beyond excellent show, there was a story that focused on Dr. Fate, Aquaman, Solomon Grundy, Hawkgirl, Superman, and Wonder Woman. Pretty diverse and ragtag group of heroes. And they battled Cthulu or whatever it was called, a horrible and powerful magical beast that terrorized Atlantis and was responsible for it sinking. They battled it's spawn and minions, grew as a team, had a very touching moment with Grundy, and killed Cthulu itself from the inside out.

Replace Dr. Fate with Dream Doctor, Solomon Grundy with Scirocco, and the rest of the league with our characters. Now replace Cthulu with Mot, and Atlantis with Dark Astoria, and you have I22's DA story line. And that's just one big story that focuses on magic and the arcane in the world of DC. Marvel also has heavy focus on magic with enemies like Mandarin and heroes like Dr. Strange, just to name a couple examples.

So do you just personally hate magic as a source for stories?