Wonder what the devs regret?


Aneko

 

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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
What kind of pie was it?
Humble?


'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.

 

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I kind of regret having that second piece of pie.
I usually regret that while I'm having my fourth piece, too.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic_Neko View Post
*pokes Zwill in his tummy*
I bet he laughs like Poppin' Fresh.


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Posted

Well, there is evidence of some things they regretted, since they had to nerf them. ED and the Global Defense Nerf being the most major, but individual powers can be pointed to as well; change of Regeneration - Instant Healing from a toggle to a click, two separate reductions of the -resist from Radiation - Enervating Field, and so on.

I suspect another major regret is how the math works for defense and resistance. If they had set up the formula properly, as Arcanaville has discussed, then 5% defense would always mean you take 5% less damage, rather than as now, where if you add 5% when you were already at 40% you take 50% less damage. That would remove much of the problem with stacking buffs/debuffs, and balancing content so that both soft capped and SO enhanced characters can play alongside each other. Balancing that must be really tough when one character is taking 10x the damage of another one standing right next to them with the same power picks. It might have even removed the need for the Global Defense Nerf those many years back.

On the topic of AE, it might have been safer if they had launched it with something like 10% of normal XP rewards, then it would have gotten an initial rep of "used by storytellers" rather than "used by powerlevelers". That would have bought some time to let them make tweaks to it and raise rewards slowly until they found points where somebody came up with an exploit worthwhile at, say, 40% of normal rewards, then fix that. Meanwhile they could have used things from it to generate canon content by moving "best of" arcs over to the real game, with full rewards. Too late now, though.


 

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ED/GDN
PvP - this was at least fun imo
PvP 2.0
AE - so much promise


 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
I can't help but think in the powers development team they sometimes regret the cottage rule with older sets. I mean it's a good policy to stick to, but I can imagine each time a new set comes out and they see how well it does they bite thing nails and swear up and down at the older powerset that they might think could use having a power or two thrown out in exchange for something better.
Its impossible for the devs to regret the cottage rule. If they ever regretted not making a change due to the cottage rule, they'd make it now. The cottage rule only requires certain changes to be made only as a last resort and only when the devs feel the change is both important enough to justify, and can only be done that way. They can't regret the cottage rule, because if they feel the rule isn't in the best interests of the game the actual rule says to override itself.


The question "what do the devs regret" depends on which devs you're talking about. For example, I have no real first hand knowledge of what geko regrets, although I suspect there are a lot of things he does. I know Castle had some retroactive regrets about things that happened before he got there, like the original design of how buff strength stacked in some cases. The fact that Champions Online changed those mechanics suggests geko had the same regret. But in terms of things he actually did, I know he regretted some things, although I'm not sure I should be precise there.

I don't think the current designers have been at the helm long enough to have too many regrets: I think what we're seeing now in terms of things like powersets and critter design is an expression of how they want to do things, which is a bit different than how Castle might have, or Geko before Castle. Castle, for example, was I believe a much more conservative designer in general than Black Scorpion is.

If there is a person for whom the question is most meaningful, its probably Positron. He's been making executive decisions for a long enough time to have regrets, and sufficiently distanced from day to day implementation that its not specifically within his power to simply change those things he regrets (Positron by his own admission is a delegator: he prefers to give his designers lots of latitude and not micromanage them, which is probably also why he wanted to get his hands more "dirty" working on the end game and incarnate system initially).

I doubt we'll ever squeeze that list out of Positron, because the obvious follow up question would be "if you regret them, why not change them?" Which is another way of saying the things the devs regret most are probably the things they can least change now because of precedent, player expectation, or the sheer amount of work it would take to alter it after the fact.


If I had to stick my neck out and guess at a really big non-obvious thing the devs regret and can't trivially change, it would be deciding originally to make City of Villains a stand alone game. That decision cascaded into a number of other decisions, and those decisions cascaded into even more decisions, almost all of which are now far more problematic than beneficial. From that one decision, we have the split markets, the dilution of the players into more zones than necessary, failing to design the red side archetypes on the assumption they had to coexist with the blue side ones, all sorts of powerset proliferation issues; the list is endless.

If the decision had been made to make City of Villains embedded in City of Heroes, and all that work went into extending and revamping Paragon City zones to accomodate villains, if the red side archetypes were designed to mesh with the blue side ones, if all that work was concentrated on a smaller but deeper footprint, we'd almost certainly have a much better game now.


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They would probably regret making Hasten as powerful as it is. And Air Superiority is pretty ridiculous for a pool attack as well.

And I agree on the +Defense. Way too much of it in the Invention system. When Blasters are softcapping, something's very wrong.

I'll bet they wish they'd made Knockback more desirable as well. This is a comic book inspired combat game, after all.


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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
3) Praetoria 1-20, who the hells bothers with it anymore now that you can select your starting point as hero or villain for any class without needed to go through Praetoria. Now it set up a lot of stuff later on so...I doubt this is a regret from the devs really.
I do. It's still a lot more interesting than most of the 1-20 hero and villain stuff.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I kind of regret having that second piece of pie.
Devs hate pie!!


Wait, no they must love it if they have two pieces of pie...



Devs hate cake!!


 

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Impossible to know what they regret but here are some areas they may not be too happy with.

1) Praetoria zones. They look awesome but they separate the players yet again. Those areas are rarely used. The resources used for those zones should have gone into new missions maps and TFs etc.

2) Older TFs/SFs. They just suck especially blue side.

3) Map designs. I don't think I have seen a more odd looking city. Just some brutal layouts in the city and buildings. Offices are just illogical by way of design.

4) Dividing playerbase in any manner.

5) PvP

6) Repetition of content and low quality content (lots of filler missions that are not fun).

Mostly minor issues but issues.


 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
It doesn't. It causes collateral damage to non-exploitative, non-farm arcs that is never addressed or even acknowledged by the dev team. The one time it was addressed the fix came in six months after the fact, hidden under a whole pile of new shinies. Most people didn't even know it was there.
When you're writing paychecks for people to fix exploits in the AE system, such time just might count towards "time we can garnish on this one part of the game." Our dev overlords have to budget out everything, time included. But I'll agree that this (and it's side effects) does not end up feeling like "love" to you and me and other AE fans.


 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Except that wasn't so fun for the other people.

I assume you mean back before they implemented the anti-one shot rule?

Yeah, that sucked for anyone who wasn't a stalker. Instantly killed by a guy you couldn't see until he killed you? What brain trust thought that would be fun for anyone but the one doing the killing?

The way PvP was shoehorned into the game is probably a pretty major regret for the dev team. If the game had been designed with it in mind, maybe it wouldn't have been so unbalanced. Just the way a lot of the powers work alone makes it aggravating. Getting caught by Telekinesis on a scrapper or tank while not having 3 Breakfrees on me was one of the most aggravating things in the entire game for me. You were held for as long as the person holding you had endurance, or until you were dead (almost always the latter).

I don't think PvP itself is regretted, just the way it was crammed into the game as an afterthought. Though they did save themselves by not allowing open world PvP. Given this game's player's general attitude toward PvP, open world PvP probably would have been the death blow 5 years ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
No, both the pre-one-shot days and the post-one-shot days were fun. There was a sufficient counterbalance to being one-shotted that I felt it was balanced. For instance, if I missed, I was exposed and could be fairly easily killed. I could be caught in caltrops or quicksand. The other person could hop around like a bunny rabbit and force me to pull out some of my niftier and significantly less fair tricks. It was FUN.

But after the one shot nerf, I still felt PvP was fun on my stalker. It required more finesse, and usually the harder targets were much harder afterwards (especially the bunny rabbits with stacks of respites), but it was still insanely fun and addicting.

Stalker on stalker combat was always incredibly entertaining too. I'd always devise these elaborate traps to ensnare the other stalker. S/he would always do the same, and I'd do my damndest to spring the trap and still get my kill.

Man, this takes me back


Doom.

Yep.

This is really doom.

 

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I'd say they regret whatever it was in the original design and coding that seems to make UI modification so time consuming and difficult.


Always remember, we were Heroes.

 

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Jack Emmert was quoted in a Gamasutra interview (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=11496) about lessons learned from City of Heroes/Villains, and he cited bases:

“We spent more time developing [bases] than any other feature in City of Heroes or City of Villains.

“What happened was players hated it. It’s the most underused facet of the game. It received almost no coverage in the press.”


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todogut View Post
Jack Emmert was quoted in a Gamasutra interview (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=11496) about lessons learned from City of Heroes/Villains, and he cited bases:

“We spent more time developing [bases] than any other feature in City of Heroes or City of Villains.

“What happened was players hated it. It’s the most underused facet of the game. It received almost no coverage in the press.”
Well he's wrong there, the players didn't hate the idea of bases, they hated the STUPIDLY CLUNKY INTERFACE YOU HAVE TO BUILD THEM WITH!

Also dear old Jack was the one that went, "what, people use the bases for roleplay purposes and not PvP?" like it was some sort of shock of the century to him.


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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
buffs stack rather than being multiplicative (i.e. 50% res + 50% res is 100% res instead of 75% res). This makes buffs impossible to balance. A 5% def buff is very weak, but 8 players giving it out makes a 40% buff which is almost game breaking.
A 50% buff multiplies the base by 1.5. In your example, multiplicative buffs would give Base x 1.5 x 1.5 or Base x 2.25 (A 125% bonus). I fail to see how additive bonuses are stronger than multiplicative ones.


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Posi mentioned in an interview right after the Going Rogue expansion that he regrets the War Walls in Paragon City, and they are looking for ways to get rid of them.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
Well he's wrong there, the players didn't hate the idea of bases, they hated the STUPIDLY CLUNKY INTERFACE YOU HAVE TO BUILD THEM WITH!

Also dear old Jack was the one that went, "what, people use the bases for roleplay purposes and not PvP?" like it was some sort of shock of the century to him.
Most people didn't even get to play with the stupid clunky interface, because the way the editor works giving everyone in the SG editing permission is just asking for disaster.

Players might have been more open to the idea of base PvP if it wasn't such a pain to set up an instant raid, and they hadn't hyped up a raid system where other people could destroy all your stuff.


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I'd guess that the devs regret Bases, PvP, and Architect. This is pure speculation, I just think that these systems share the unfortunate characteristics of being promising, imperfect, underused, and abandoned as lost causes by the developers.

I'm still glad that these systems exist, though, even if I don't use them with enough frequency to justify the (probably massive) amount of work that went into creating them.


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Always the negativity towards the Devs, isn't it?

Ever wonder what stupid crap it is the players regret pulling over the years with all of the incessant whining and moaning about this and that?

I'll give you one: I bet players regret every single nerf that has ever happened because of their droning dissonance


 

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I bet they regret not producing a single user version. With blockbuster sales of certain sp fantasy & war RPGs this month taking in $bn & CoH trying to squeeze a few more cents from their user base.


 

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I like Arcanaville's reasoning on behalf of CoV.

I'd toss buff stacking and defence into the ring.

And toss in a side of AoE zerg-fest. Players often say things like "mob positioning tool" when talking about repel and KB, but the simple truth is that those powers were supposed to be about keeping mobs away, not clumpingthem. The devs completely buggered up the single target, tactical game (in alpha, there were even targetted body shots, apparently) which, in turn, buggered up such concepts as "distance as damage mitigation" (it's usually MORE dangerous to spread mobs out because you fug up AoEs) which in turned marginalized an entire class of powers.

PvP's an obvious one, as many have mentioned.

*I* regret that the devs let bases slip into irrelevance for the majority of players. For that matter, I don't even bother with SGs on new toons, and can't remember the names of the ones my older toons are in.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
Well he's wrong there, the players didn't hate the idea of bases, they hated the STUPIDLY CLUNKY INTERFACE YOU HAVE TO BUILD THEM WITH!

Also dear old Jack was the one that went, "what, people use the bases for roleplay purposes and not PvP?" like it was some sort of shock of the century to him.
Jack never understood the players.


 

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They just need to heavily nerf farms in AE and heavily buff xp in regular missions to make them worth running.


 

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Seperating the game into CoH and CoV.

How the ATs are set up.

Tanker/Brute should be combined.

Scrappers/Stalker should be combined.

Blasters given Defense Secondaries, and made them the lawnmowers (mass minion killers) with weaker single target versus the Scrapper/Stalkers (and to limit degree Tanker/Brute) being more of the ST specialists.

Defenders/Corrs made into one AT...Like Defender with Scourge.

Trollers would of been Doms right off the bat.

MMs, you know, I think they're good as is, but they may have decided to turn the pets into a power pool pick for those who want the pets.

Then made Epic ATs, to be more specific to content.

Speaking of which...no war walls...multiple cities...so bigger maps, but less of them! Much like DCUO has done with Gotham and Metropolis.

Then have other cities possibily, but not as many, with some smaller "special" zones...like a Moon Zone, alternate dimension zones.

PvP fixed right off the bat.

And I really hope they regret making some of the game mechanics as IC things.

Enhancements, Inspirations, Auction House, Power Proliferations...would of left all that as OOC game mechanics. No auction house to go to, just a slash command with a button to click for the same command.

Making healing others so predominate in the game.

Not having the money to block a companies court battle and tell them to stick it.


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