Super Packs Update - 12/12/2011
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-12 19:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is how I feel. I won't buy something when I don't know what I'm getting. I don't enjoy gambling and when my husband I go to Atlantic City he gambles, I shop. My money usually lasts longer and I walk away happier.
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Originally Posted by seebs
And as a data point: I won't buy Super Packs. I do not object to the existence of such things, really, but I do find it annoying/offensive that there's costume parts which can only be gotten by gambling. I am fine with paying for costume parts. Now... I'm not one of the people who would buy Super Packs if they were one of several options for getting those parts. I just won't buy them. I find gambling mildly upsetting; I want to know what I am or am not buying.
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Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
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I think I need a refresher overview of what the superpacks are going to be.
Work is giving me brain damage.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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For what it's worth, that's how I see it. I mean, it's highly likely they'll consistently be 3 tokens of parts every 3 months based on statements at the Pummit and such, but... What if it's four, once?|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
As to the bolded part the fact that there are going to be other costume sets (or other rewards) in that tier (which we've known from the get go) is enough reason for me to NEVER spend my extras on the random super packs. I'd rather save my tokens for the other Tier 9 goodies coming.
Will everyone else think this way? We'll see. |
What if they add a one-off for one token sometime?
Those questions will keep me banking reward tokens indefinitely unless we hear a hard 'We're not going to have more than 12 tokens of VIP costumes this year' statement from rednames. And then, maybe, if I've managed to buy points to have extra tokens, I MIGHT spend extras past 12 for that year on something in the repeatables.
That year. The next... Well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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A happy meal with less nutritional value.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I think I need a refresher overview of what the superpacks are going to be.
Work is giving me brain damage. |
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Then you have to take the gamble and hope that it doesnt happen so you are forced to buy more points...|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
For what it's worth, that's how I see it. I mean, it's highly likely they'll consistently be 3 tokens of parts every 3 months based on statements at the Pummit and such, but... What if it's four, once?
What if they add a one-off for one token sometime? Those questions will keep me banking reward tokens indefinitely unless we hear a hard 'We're not going to have more than 12 tokens of VIP costumes this year' statement from rednames. And then, maybe, if I've managed to buy points to have extra tokens, I MIGHT spend extras past 12 for that year on something in the repeatables. That year. The next... Well. |
Wait...
*ANOTHER* Case of gambling?
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Indeed, because instead of a cheeseburger you get a random piece of crud. And instead of fries you get a random piece of crud. And in place o a toy you get a voucher... that you can redeem for a random piece of crud.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
A happy meal with less nutritional value.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I'd be compelled to give Paragon my money if they just sold the damn things to us instead of getting us to gamble for it. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Money can be compelling, and the whole CCG strategy seems to be a pretty successful grift for a few other companies.
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As it stands, none of these concessions make me want to go anywhere near the packs. Launch them by all means, maybe they'll take off, maybe they won't. Personally I hope they crash and burn and make Paragon reconsider ever doing anything so stupid again.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Professional courtesy isn't the issue at hand but one of customer satisfaction. While Positron posted in at one point another of these threads about the technical issues that he said impeded offering the Super Pack costumes for sale separately, players immediately found contradictions within the current system (specifically the Tier 9 costumes). Apparently that's why this position of offering Super Packs for Tier 9 Reward Tokens is being pushed.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Naturally, you think they're wrong, but could you at least afford them the professional courtesy of supposing that if they're being this difficult about the costume pieces while giving in on the other stuff that maybe they have their reasons, ones that they find pretty compelling?
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Basic courtesy, then.
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What we have here is a more or less civil discussion, even though tempers are running hot behind the keyboards.
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If no one buys them, Paragon will add stuff to make people want to buy them. Hell, they'll probably do that even if they sell well. It's not stupidity, it's optional content you can safely ignore.|
Originally Posted by Dante
As it stands, none of these concessions make me want to go anywhere near the packs. Launch them by all means, maybe they'll take off, maybe they won't. Personally I hope they crash and burn and make Paragon reconsider ever doing anything so stupid again.
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If you are doubtful of the value of these "supa packs" like I am, just don't buy them. Problem solved.
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Oh hey, that's even better, Zwill, I like the Super Packs more now than I did. Great idea, perhaps that's one step that'll help win over the people who've stated they're against random awards. Looking forward to beta-testing these.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
<snipped to the relevant part>
Now for the new stuff (12/12/2011):
Thanks! -Z |
@Raven Lord
Even against certain death, it matters not how or if we fight, only that we do.
Most amusing complement I've ever been paid on an outfit, from @Ukase regarding my Blue Eyed She-Devil Anson Maddocs "Fallen Angel" homage:
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
"She gives my ex-wife a run for the money."
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The fear is that if they don't (or do!) sell well, then more and more 'better' stuff will become exclusive to the packs, which will drive customers away due to their emotional reactions and make it so that spending money rather than playing the game becomes the way to increase your power ingame.|
Originally Posted by BYiro
If no one buys them, Paragon will add stuff to make people want to buy them.
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This is not a desirable outcome for me.
We want the packs to come to the game in a form that HELPs the game, not only in the form of short term sales but also long term customer good will.
I'd hate for Paragon Studios to get a big influx of money that disguises until too late that a critical mass of players have unsubscribed from the game.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Since there has to be behind-the-scenes coding in order for the Super Pack's random rolls to work properly with the player account database that's the domain of the Paragon Market, it's a fair supposition that even if there's a separate team devoted strictly to the latter, they'll have to be involved in some way. Even if Paragon Studios is rigidly compartmentalized, there's still the problem of Super Packs taking away the focus of management as The Thing That Has to Get Done.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Though I see your point, I don't think the UI guys are the same guys who fill the store with new items, and they most likely aren't the ones who come up with the ideas for the new items. I don't think improving or keeping the marketing scheme that is behind the superpacks or adding or subtracting items form the super packs, nor putting costume pieces on the market has anything to do with fixing it's abysmal UI.
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It would have been encouraging if the Super Packs hadn't been announced until the Paragon Market was 100% working (and anyone who plays on OS X knows it's not) and the useful missing features had been implemented (such as purchasing history/pre-Freedom legqacy items). Instead, the current circumstances are discouragingly reminiscent of what happened with Architect Entertainment once it went live and encountered assorted disappointments, i.e. the devs moved on to the next thing.
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Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Basic courtesy, then.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Ehhh I don't agree that that's a fair supposition simply because there have been other RNG system in the game PIROR to the existence of the Paragon Market. I think a better guess (though we may be both wrong) that AFTER the pack is delivered one of the non-market, in-game RNG systems takes over.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Since there has to be behind-the-scenes coding in order for the Super Pack's random rolls to work properly with the player account database that's the domain of the Paragon Market, it's a fair supposition that even if there's a separate team devoted strictly to the latter, they'll have to be involved in some way. Even if Paragon Studios is rigidly compartmentalized, there's still the problem of Super Packs taking away the focus of management as The Thing That Has to Get Done.
It would have been encouraging if the Super Packs hadn't been announced until the Paragon Market was 100% working (and anyone who plays on OS X knows it's not) and the useful missing features had been implemented (such as purchasing history/pre-Freedom legqacy items). Instead, the current circumstances are discouragingly reminiscent of what happened with Architect Entertainment once it went live and encountered assorted disappointments, i.e. the devs moved on to the next thing. |
I say this because currently there exists at least one (I'm probably forgetting more) in-game RNG system that works with costumes: Maelstrom's pistol drops on the TPN. In addition there are the temp costume pieces (wings) and powers (random things like pets, grenades, etc) of old. I don't think it needs to be tied to the Paragon Market back-end for it to work.
In addition I don't think having an RNG system even it were linked to the Paragon Market would have much to do with UI development. I certainly wouldn't want those type of engineers going anywhere near UI developement or we get things like . . . the Paragon Market UI. lol, saying that then again maybe you have a point.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Possibly. Like you, I'm making my best guess. At the very least, though, the QA team is going to have their hands full testing Super Packs when there are plenty of other areas with the Paragon Market and the game at large where their attention could already help.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Ehhh I don't agree that that's a fair supposition simply because there have been other RNG system in the game PIROR to the existence of the Paragon Market. I think a better guess (though we may be both wrong) that AFTER the pack is delivered one of the non-market, in-game RNG systems takes over.
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It's a question of priorities, at least from this perspective.
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Uhhhh, you and I have been here long enough to know that anything that makes us level to 50 in an hour or allows the game to (potentially) print money (like super packs might despite our objections) becomes priority with QA. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Possibly. Like you, I'm making my best guess. At the very least, though, the QA team is going to have their hands full testing Super Packs when there are plenty of other areas with the Paragon Market and the game at large where their attention could already help.
It's a question of priorities, at least from this perspective. |
I'm not saying that to insult NCSoft or Paragon either. It's just reality of being a business.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Can somebody tell me what a Super Pack is, exactly?
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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It's a lotto-draw being set for purchase on the Paragon Market. Each $1 purchase will get 6/205 different items of set rarities. These items include consumables like inspirations and temp powers, as well as unique costume pieces, AT enhancements, and Enhancement Catalysts.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Can somebody tell me what a Super Pack is, exactly?
Eco |
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Unfortunetly, many of us never use the dual inspirations, windfalls, XP boosters, etc. that even came for free with our vet status, and don't have any desire to buy them. For us, it is just introducing costume parts at a vastly inflated (and variable) price. Outside of that, which some might find those consumables useful, the whole 'collectible' aspect is by design an approach to selling things that preys on customers adrenal response to finding something exciting (reward!) in a pack (e.g. the gambling response) to make them buy more because once someone is emotional invested in obtaining a costume set, they will likely spend 'as much as it takes' to finish collecting them all.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
for players who actually use those things, that's a lot of value for 80 points, and they'll be happy to buy grab bags, since they won't see it as gambling on a costume piece.
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There is a reason why CCG players often spend hundreds of dollars each month on their hobby, addiction. I can see why they would want to tap that method of selling items, as it means while someone might not be willing to spend $50 on a costume set outright, if you get them to buy a pack or two and 'ooo, I got one', they might become invested in collecting the rest, and then look back later, thinking...wow, I just spent $50.
My hope is that they listen to the playerbase and don't go ahead with adding 'collectible only' items to the game, but alas, I doubt they'll change their minds. We might hate them for it, but they expect it to make money, so I suspect they will continue as planned. Nevertheless, I won't buy these packs, out of principle.
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Now, I'm not normally one to quote things and say "this" . . . but:
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This.|
Originally Posted by seebs
If it were up to me, the costume parts would be purchaseable as-such. Since they aren't, I won't get them.
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(the other stuff Seebs said I'm pretty much on boards with as well)
AT Enhancements: I was REALLY looking forward to this. I wouldn't mind having to buy them with reward merits, even though I despise the Reward Rolls and usually don't do them. (I use AE tickets to flat out buy enhancements, and Reward Merits to buy stuff, I don't do the random roll crap) I wouldn't mind if they were orange or purple drops.
Super Insipirations: I get along just fine without them.
Enhancement Enhancers I think I've used my enhancement unslotters to pull some Luck of the Gamblers out and that's about it, and that was so I could delete the character.
Costume Parts: Gimme gimme gimme. I'll play the same Snaptooth missions over and over and over to make sure I get the snowflakes emote, the hat, the gloves, EVERYTHING so my characters can play dressup.
So what's my problem? I dislike the "we want the players to keep pulling that lever" attitude Positron and who knows who else seem to have regarding us.
I am NOT a Skinner Box Rat.
Yeah, I can afford the $15, so can my wife, so that's $30 right there. Now with the Paragon Market we devote another $20 between us, and that's $50 for our entertainment budget right there.
Someone said I wouldn't have been able to afford the game before Freedom launched, which is really odd, since my wife and I afforded it for 7 years prior to this.
But I dislike the fact that now I'm obviously being treated as a lever pulling rat. And not only that, I'm expected to enjoy the fact that instead of food when I pull the lever, I might crap.
This whole "purchasable booster pack" crap reminds me too much of cheap tactics to milk the player base for everything they can get while minimizing the content. I'm not great with statistics, but I have a feeling that taking in the law of averages, you'd need to spend more than $250 to get all of the 250 items when you're doing 6 random rolls.
And what about the AT's themselves? Let's say I win some, or buy them with my reward tokens... Are they account wide, or character specific regarding those AT enhancements and costume pieces?
So, are we rolling at a $1 a throw, in our little Skinner Box, PER CHARACTER, or account wide?
Judging from what I've read, it sure looks like you're throwing for 1 set. That's it. 1 set.
Now take a look at your power tray for your Blaster. See all those blaster powers? Each power will need it's own set.
Start pulling that lever, monkey.
"If you build it, they will run you over with it."-RPG Designers Mantra
Working on: YotZ Legends: Even Heroes Die (First Round Edit)
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Costume pieces are account-wide unlocks.|
Originally Posted by Rusted_Metal
So, are we rolling at a $1 a throw, in our little Skinner Box, PER CHARACTER, or account wide?
Judging from what I've read, it sure looks like you're throwing for 1 set. That's it. 1 set. Now take a look at your power tray for your Blaster. See all those blaster powers? Each power will need it's own set. Start pulling that lever, monkey. |
ATOs: You get them individually (not as a set). They're unique per character, so you can't put them in every power. (I don't know if using a catalyst turns them into a different IO so you can slot one catalyed ATO and the equivalent uncatalyzed ATO on the same character. Even if so, that's at most 12 per character. Still a lot, and trying to get them via Super Packs would get expensive, fast, but... well, it's not as horrible as it could be. Or even as bad as it was when it was announced.)
I don't have a problem with random boosters.
In fact, I think they are a good idea, so long as they are an alternative means of getting product, and not the exclusive means.
I can totally get behind having a choice between spending 400 points on a costume set and spending 80 points on a random 0-40% of that set, along with some random consumables, enhancements, and widgets.
I am most certainly glad the enhancements and boosters are available by other means: that actually increases the chances of me personally buying Super Boosters significantly.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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How would it do that when it does not address the problem with random rewards in any way, shape, or form?
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Originally Posted by RavenSoul
Oh hey, that's even better, Zwill, I like the Super Packs more now than I did. Great idea, perhaps that's one step that'll help win over the people who've stated they're against random awards. Looking forward to beta-testing these.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound