City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Super Packs Update - 12/12/2011

Agent White

By Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-12 19:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
ATOs (Archetype Enhancements) will be purchasable from the Reward Merit Vendor, for a combination of Reward Merits and Inf, and from Astral Christy, for a combination of Astral Merits and Inf. There will be a cooldown timer on the purchase of these items. The amount of Inf and duration of the cooldown are still being discussed and will be evaluated once all of this hits beta. This is in addition to their availability in Super Packs.
This addresses my concerns, alleviating my anger over the possibility of pay-to-win items only being offered through slot machine pulls. If you have to put a for-money slot machine into the game in order to make bank, at least you didn't make it mandatory to play it in order to max out your character. I still don't like it; my hatred for anything resembling casino gambling burns with the fire of a thousand exploding suns. But at least you made it optional.

 

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Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Speak for yourself, I'm too new, and I decided that I couldn't afford what it would cost me to get them.
...I wasn't being serious

 

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I like how this person calls it gambling.

Is CoH banned in canada?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Now for the new stuff (12/12/2011):
  • Super Packs will be available as a Tier 9 Repeatable Paragon Reward Program option. Right now the idea is that players will be able to redeem a Paragon Reward Token for 5 Super Packs. This number is, as is the case with all things in beta, subject to change.
Thanks for the update, Zwillinger.

This does not address the fundamental issue that many players have: Offering random exclusives to VIPers undermines the basic promise of CoH Freedom that players could choose to pay for the content they wanted.

VIPers and Preems would like the option to purchase the exclusive items that are being randomly bundled in this proposed system, whether in the game or on the Paragon Market. There's been a compromise on ATIOs, but apparently not with the costumes and other exclusives. This new offer is just an attempt to make Super Packs: The Gathering somehow more palatable without addressing the fundamental complaints.

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
Ok, I stand corrected. $10, not $15.
You know, to be honest, my first thought as to how much a token was 'worth' was wrong too. Until I actually looked at how much the equivalent t9 repeatable stuff was worth I would have said a token was the rough equivalent of $5. It just isn't something that I really think should be 'worth' a significant amount really, but obviously that's just me.

MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Super Packs will be available as a Tier 9 Repeatable Paragon Reward Program option. Right now the idea is that players will be able to redeem a Paragon Reward Token for 5 Super Packs. This number is, as is the case with all things in beta, subject to change.
Given that it takes such a ridiculous number of tokens to get a complete Tier 9 costume set, I can't see myself ever spending the bloody things on anything else now that I've finally edged my way up to Tier 9.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Given that it takes such a ridiculous number of tokens to get a complete Tier 9 costume set, I can't see myself ever spending the bloody things on anything else now that I've finally edged my way up to Tier 9.
It takes 3 Reward Tokens to complete a set. Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.

Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios

 

Posted

If it is announced that the costumes in the Super Packs will be available for normal prices (400 pp), even if their release is delayed by a year or so, I think the majority of the remaining objections will evaporate. But the idea that the costumes might not otherwise ever be available at all (and 'at some point in the future' is perceived same as 'maybe someday') is leaving a bad taste in the costume collector's mouths. Of course an announced date will cause some people to simply delay getting the costume until then, but these are people that might not otherwise have chosen to get that costume at all.

Just know that the players will soon figure out how many purchases it will take to collect a costume set from those who choose to do so, and from those who fail to do so, and then a 'price point' for the packs will emerge based on that. This price point will largely discount the value of consumables and somewhat discount the value of ATOs, because people are just like that.

I still dislike how closely this ties RL money to inf, and predict an influx of players intending to exploit that system if the packs are tradeable ingame, and I recommend that instead they be made so that you can trade them back to the store at an exchange rate for new random packs.

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
It takes 3 Reward Tokens to complete a set. Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.
Since you brought up the subject, Z, is this confirmation that future tier-9 VIP sets will all be three token as well, so there won't be a point to "saving" more than three tokens at a time? Can I get that confirmed in writing?

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
It takes 3 Reward Tokens to complete a set. Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.
Yeah, I have to say that I think 3 tokens is an established norm anyway-- 3 tokens are equal one old-school vet reward. It sounded large when I first saw it back when the Tier 9 sets were announced, but when comparing it to the vet reward system, I saw that it was the same -- 3 months of subscription = 1 costume set (when it provided costume sets, anyway).

Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
It takes 3 Reward Tokens to complete a set. Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.
While that might make this marginally more tolerable for Tier 9 VIPers, Paragon is still requiring everyone else who's interested to play Super Pack: The Gathering and is beginning to seem determined no matter how much negative feedback they receive.

(And let's not even get into the current clusterflock of the timing for subscription Reward Tokens or how VIPers were initially promised that they'd receive their Reward Tokens up front, the same as Preems buying points on the market. The thread devoted to that topic is approaching thirty pages and still growing.)

Remember when Avatea promised us that CoH Freedom meant "Pay for the content and features that you want."and Positron stated, "City of Heroes Freedom redefines City of Heroes based on the cornerstones of content, rewards, and choice."?

Because we do, and this is not it.

 

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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
Since you brought up the subject, Z, is this confirmation that future tier-9 VIP sets will all be three token as well, so there won't be a point to "saving" more than three tokens at a time? Can I get that confirmed in writing?
lol I saw this question coming the second he made that statement.

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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
While that might make this marginally more tolerable for Tier 9 VIPers, Paragon is still requiring everyone else who's interested to play Super Pack: The Gathering and is beginning to seem determined no matter how much negative feedback they receive.
Mainly because 90% of the feedback is coming from only a few players. It's only once it hits the store that they can see whether it's a profitable idea or not. Negative feedback from a few players holds very little weight if a large portion of the playerbase responds favorably at the store.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
It takes 3 Reward Tokens to complete a set. Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.
As to the bolded part the fact that there are going to be other costume sets (or other rewards) in that tier (which we've known from the get go) is enough reason for me to NEVER spend my extras on the random super packs. I'd rather save my tokens for the other Tier 9 goodies coming.

Will everyone else think this way? We'll see.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
As to the bolded part the fact that there are going to be other costume sets (or other rewards) in that tier (which we've known from the get go) is enough reason for me to NEVER spend my extras on the random super packs. I'd rather save my tokens for the other Tier 9 goodies coming.

Will everyone else think this way? We'll see.
It depends. I'd love for a more definite statement to come out, but if there's a new Tier 9 VIP set that costs 3 tokens every 6 months, and that's stable, then you get 6 tokens a year on which you have absolutely nothing to spend them except the consumable tier.

It's hard to know if that will be so, though. Maybe the next VIP offering will need 5 tokens.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
Mainly because 90% of the feedback is coming from only a few players. It's only once it hits the store that they can see whether it's a profitable idea or not. Negative feedback from a few players holds very little weight if a large portion of the playerbase responds favorably at the store.
THIS!!!!

As I've said before I'm fine withe them trying nearly everything to make money via their store. Why? The game needs money to function/develop/expand. Simple as that.

That doesn't mean that I have to buy everything they offer. But it does mean when I see something I would never buy or that I think others won't buy, or can be improved, I'll say so.

Honestly, if the costume pieces were available for some price on the paragon market I think the objections to super packs would drop tremendously.

EDIT: With that said how would I improve the Super packs? Put a random chance in them for an orange or purple recipe to drop. 40% chance for an orange, 25% chance for a purple. I'd buy plenty of super packs with something like that in it. (And yes I can already hear the epic level of hollering others are about to make when they read my suggestion.)

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
It depends. I'd love for a more definite statement to come out, but if there's a new Tier 9 VIP set that costs 3 tokens every 6 months, and that's stable, then you get 6 tokens a year on which you have absolutely nothing to spend them except the consumable tier.

It's hard to know if that will be so, though. Maybe the next VIP offering will need 5 tokens.
Yes but there are other things in the Tier NOW that I'd spend money on BEFORE the super packs, other than another costume set like Celestial. I should have made that clear. Hence if I ever have tokens left over they are going towards those WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Y before I spend them on a superpack. EVER.

EDIT: Now if they implement my suggestion above that's a different story.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
Mainly because 90% of the feedback is coming from only a few players.
Nice statistic. Care to tell us how you came up with it? One could just as easily say that 90% of the responses in favor of whatever the new scenario for Super Packs: The Gathering are from your thread-sitting.

 

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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
Nice statistic. Care to tell us how you came up with it? One could just as easily say that 90% of the responses in favor of whatever the new scenario for Super Packs: The Gathering are from your thread-sitting.
Oh, absolutely. That number was a total air-pull. I'm not going to go tabulate posts and figure out exactly how many anti-Super Pack posts have been made by you and rsclark and maybe a couple others. And yes, I could be completely wrong and alone on this. That's my point. We don't know. We're just the ones who sit on the forums. A bunch of people on the forums have called market inspirations valueless and worse; but in-game I've seen just as many people love and use them.

All the discussion around Super Packs centers on the assumption that the only things worthwhile in them are the ATOs (which have already been neutered) and the costume pieces, and nothing else counts: that if you got a pack with inspirations, windfalls, XP boosters, and 200 reward merits, you got jack-all and you just lost a dollar. But for players who actually use those things, that's a lot of value for 80 points, and they'll be happy to buy grab bags, since they won't see it as gambling on a costume piece.

So yes, I could well be wrong. The vast majority of the playerbase might well in fact feel as you do and the packs will turn out to be a complete bomb in the store. Then, at least, we (or Paragon anyway) would have some empirical evidence to substantiate the vocal forum voices.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Because the sets are going to be available overlapping with the successive offerings, I'm confident many players will find they have spare tokens, "leftover" so to speak.
As I said, I have a few, more than I'll need to buy the Fire & Ice set when it comes out. But I don't want more consumables (and if the ones I have disappeared from my inbox, I wouldn't bother filing a support ticket). That's why I haven't bought Signature Summons, or Windfalls, or XP Boosters, or Enhancement Unslotters, or Enhancement Boosters. And it's why I won't buy Super Packs, with my points (I've still got a few thousand saved) or my extra Rewards Tokens or whatever other way they're made available, even to get the Elemental Order costume pieces that I do want, even if it's the only way to get them.

It's not about having (or not having) the means to buy the Super Packs. I simply refuse to buy items I don't want.

And yes, I realize that my extra tokens aren't going toward anything else, either (my points eventually will). I'm fine with that, too.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
So yes, I could well be wrong. The vast majority of the playerbase might well in fact feel as you do and the packs will turn out to be a complete bomb in the store. Then, at least, we (or Paragon anyway) would have some empirical evidence to substantiate the vocal forum voices.
Well, Zwillinger has been tabulating exactly that behind the scenes, and since there are still compromises (of a kind) being offered, it's fairly evident that there are more than enough players who detest this turn that CoH Freedom is going to be taking. It would be great if he could share some of that data, or, for that matter, if Black Pebble could comment instead of leaving Zwillinger with the sole responsibility, on top of turning of his PM mailbox.

If Paragon decides to go ahead without further response to our feedback and the Super Packs bomb at the store, then the playerbase will have additionally lost out on all the time and resources spent implementing a flawed system instead of, say, improving the Paragon Market's barely acceptable UI. That's not an especially attractive gamble either.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
If Paragon decides to go ahead without further response to our feedback and the Super Packs bomb at the store, then the playerbase will have additionally lost out on all the time and resources spent implementing a flawed system instead of, say, improving the Paragon Market's barely acceptable UI. That's not an especially attractive gamble either.
Though I see your point, I don't think the UI guys are the same guys who fill the store with new items, and they most likely aren't the ones who come up with the ideas for the new items. I don't think improving or keeping the marketing scheme that is behind the superpacks or adding or subtracting items form the super packs, nor putting costume pieces on the market has anything to do with fixing it's abysmal UI.

Just saying.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
Well, Zwillinger has been tabulating exactly that behind the scenes, and since there are still compromises (of a kind) being offered, it's fairly evident that there are more than enough players who detest this turn that CoH Freedom is going to be taking. It would be great if he could share some of that data, or, for that matter, if Black Pebble could comment instead of leaving Zwillinger with the sole responsibility, on top of turning of his PM mailbox.

If Paragon decides to go ahead without further response to our feedback and the Super Packs bomb at the store, then the playerbase will have additionally lost out on all the time and resources spent implementing a flawed system instead of, say, improving the Paragon Market's barely acceptable UI. That's not an especially attractive gamble either.
Yes, I imagine Z and the marketing group have been reviewing the data as much as they can, both the number of voices on the forums as well as actual market data. I expect that is why they believe the concessions they've made to date are worthwhile. I also expect that means that the fact that they are not making the one concession you so dearly want indicates that it is rather an important point, one that they feel is worth sticking to their guns.

Naturally, you think they're wrong, but could you at least afford them the professional courtesy of supposing that if they're being this difficult about the costume pieces while giving in on the other stuff that maybe they have their reasons, ones that they find pretty compelling?

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.

 

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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
Yes, I imagine Z and the marketing group have been reviewing the data as much as they can, both the number of voices on the forums as well as actual market data. I expect that is why they believe the concessions they've made to date are worthwhile. I also expect that means that the fact that they are not making the one concession you so dearly want indicates that it is rather an important point, one that they feel is worth sticking to their guns.

Naturally, you think they're wrong, but could you at least afford them the professional courtesy of supposing that if they're being this difficult about the costume pieces while giving in on the other stuff that maybe they have their reasons, ones that they find pretty compelling?
I don't think saying I as a player disagree with their reasoning is being professionally discourteous. But as to the data point you might just be right. Time will tell.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Basic courtesy, then.

De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.